podcast Peter Attia 2022-03-14 topics

#199 - Running, overcoming challenges, and finding success | Ryan Hall

Audio

Show notes

Ryan Hall is the fastest American ever to run the marathon (2:04:58) and half marathon (59:43) and is the author of the book Run the Mile You’re In . In this episode, Ryan discusses his amazing successes and epic failures during his remarkable running career and what he’s learned through these experiences. Ryan explains not only the physical aspects of running – including his training routine, fueling regimen, and recovery process – but he also emphasizes the mental aspect of the sport. He discusses how accepting and reframing negative thoughts can empower you to take on challenges and reach your potential. Additionally, Ryan discusses the traits that make the best competitors, the keys to overcoming setbacks, and his amazing feat of 7 marathons in 7 days as a goodbye to the sport that gave him so much.

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We discuss:

How Ryan got into running and his formative years of training [4:45];
The advantages of altitude—living high and training low [9:45];
Progressive overload, blood flow restriction, and switching up your workout routine [14:15];
Lessons learned from competing in the Beijing Olympics [16:45];
Importance of speed, power, and strength for runners [22:15];
The crazy idea that got Ryan hooked on running [35:15];
The mental aspect of training and the power of reframing negative thoughts [37:45];
The importance of fueling, and Ryan’s marathon diet [52:00];
Boosting performance with Tylenol and keeping core temperature down [59:00];
Ryan’s early struggles and later success at Stanford [1:09:45];
Keys to overcoming difficulty: faith, mindset, and being a better teammate [1:15:45];
Ryan’s professional running career and his discovery of his gift for marathon distances [1:22:00];
Reflections after breaking the American half marathon record, and challenges faced by retired athletes [1:32:45];
Ryan’s marathon training regimen at the Mammoth Track Club in 2010 [1:39:45];
Optimal body weight for competition and the pros and cons of going below your natural weight [1:48:45];
Training volume, importance of mixing up the intensity level, and zone 2 and zone 5 for longevity [1:53:45];
The most impactful adjustments Ryan made to his training leading up the to 2011 Boston Marathon [1:58:15];
A new personal record at the 2011 Boston Marathon and lessons on maximizing your own potential [2:03:30];
Learning from failure and takeaways from his disappointing performance at the 2012 Olympics [2:12:30];
Utilizing cardio and strength training for overall health, and how Ryan uses blood flow restriction in his workouts [2:24:45];
Performance enhancing drugs (or lack thereof) in marathon runners [2:29:15];
Traits of the greatest marathon runners [2:32:30];
7 marathons in 7 days on 7 continents—saying goodbye to the sport [2:38:45];
Reflections on what running has given Ryan [2:49:30]; and
More.

Show Notes

*Notes from intro :

Ryan is a retired American long distance runner who holds the US record in the half marathon at 59 minutes and 43 seconds
He became the first US runner to break the 1-hour barrier
He also holds the American record in the marathon and is the only American to run sub 2:05, running 2:04:58
Ryan is generally regarded as one of the greatest American distance runners
He retired in 2016 after a really difficult 4-year period, following the London Olympics , which was plagued by lots of injuries
He’s really transformed his body in a way that is almost difficult to imagine without looking at a picture of him then versus now
Ryan now is a coach He coaches his wife, who is also a professional runner, and he coaches runners of all category and talent levels through his training program called Run Free Training
He’s written a book called Run The Mile You’re In
Peter remarks, “ this is one of the few podcasts where I really felt like I came into it with kind of a sense of where I wanted to go and I completely came off that. I never really come into podcast with a list of questions, but I usually have a sense of direction and here I deviated from it completely. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think it just speaks to how much I couldn’t stop wanting to get into details of his training and just how intrigued I have been by his transformation. ”
Ryan is an enormous physical specimen, probably over 190 lbs He is into power lifting and carrying on many extreme feats of physical strength Some of which we talk about, but many of which you can see on his Instagram account, which Peter can’t recommend that highly enough It’s just amazing to watch For example, his last one was doing a 500 lb deadlift and then immediately running into a 5-minute mile He didn’t succeed in that He went 5:22 or something, but he’s going to take another shot at it
We also talk about one of the most crazy of his fitness challenges that he does for himself
Today he says his testosterone is about a 1000 ng/dL, which places him at about the 90th percentile
Obviously that’s a testament to how he’s changed his nutrition and the fact that he’s not running 110 miles a week.
In this episode, we talk about his career, but not in the necessarily in the most linear way His amazing successes and his epic failures What he’s learned through these experiences
He coaches his wife, who is also a professional runner, and he coaches runners of all category and talent levels through his training program called Run Free Training
He is into power lifting and carrying on many extreme feats of physical strength
Some of which we talk about, but many of which you can see on his Instagram account, which Peter can’t recommend that highly enough It’s just amazing to watch For example, his last one was doing a 500 lb deadlift and then immediately running into a 5-minute mile He didn’t succeed in that He went 5:22 or something, but he’s going to take another shot at it
It’s just amazing to watch
For example, his last one was doing a 500 lb deadlift and then immediately running into a 5-minute mile He didn’t succeed in that He went 5:22 or something, but he’s going to take another shot at it
He didn’t succeed in that
He went 5:22 or something, but he’s going to take another shot at it
His amazing successes and his epic failures
What he’s learned through these experiences

“ I think this is just kind of an amazing interview, even if you’re not a runner. But I think it really talks a lot about the mindset of what it means to be successful. ” – Peter Attia

Ryan is just an incredibly optimistic person He’s the kind of person who really never seems to let failure get to him in a way that maybe some of us certainly myself would Peter think’s his optimism is kind of what’s allowed him to bounce back from so many setbacks
He’s the kind of person who really never seems to let failure get to him in a way that maybe some of us certainly myself would
Peter think’s his optimism is kind of what’s allowed him to bounce back from so many setbacks

How Ryan got into running and his formative years of training [4:45]

Peter has been a fan of Ryan’s for a long time
Running is sort of like F1 racing It’s not really popular in the US, but it is becoming more so The Netflix series Drive to Survive has made F1 very popular People are starting to becomes more aware of runners Kipchoge ‘s two hour sub effort kind of got a lot of people in this country excited about it
Peter’s interest in running began in the early 2000s He use to swim with Allan Webb Allan was this phenom who set the high school record for the mile Peter often swam next to this guy, in the next lane and just became kind of interested in his journey Then Peter learned about Ryan Hall and the other runners of that generation
It’s not really popular in the US, but it is becoming more so
The Netflix series Drive to Survive has made F1 very popular
People are starting to becomes more aware of runners Kipchoge ‘s two hour sub effort kind of got a lot of people in this country excited about it
Kipchoge ‘s two hour sub effort kind of got a lot of people in this country excited about it
He use to swim with Allan Webb Allan was this phenom who set the high school record for the mile Peter often swam next to this guy, in the next lane and just became kind of interested in his journey
Then Peter learned about Ryan Hall and the other runners of that generation
Allan was this phenom who set the high school record for the mile
Peter often swam next to this guy, in the next lane and just became kind of interested in his journey

Growing up at altitude

Ryan grew up in Big Bear, CA ; it’s at altitude It was a really cool place to grow up It’s 2 hours from the beach It’s one of the few places someone can both surf and snowboard/ ski in the same day He lived a mile away from snow summit
Many of the best runners in the world come from places that are 7,000 feet altitude, such as Ethiopia and Kenya So he found himself in the perfect scenario for a distance runner in the sense of being able to live high and train low
When he was growing up in high school, his dad was his coach
His dad started a cross country and track team just so he could run There wasn’t even one available at Big Bear High School The team would drop down twice a week, drive an hour down to sea level, get on a track at sea level, run some super hard interval sessions and then pop back up to altitude This was before research and studies showed how beneficial this kind of training is But they were doing it because it just made sense This was the environment in which he found himself in
It was a really cool place to grow up
It’s 2 hours from the beach
It’s one of the few places someone can both surf and snowboard/ ski in the same day
He lived a mile away from snow summit
So he found himself in the perfect scenario for a distance runner in the sense of being able to live high and train low
There wasn’t even one available at Big Bear High School
The team would drop down twice a week, drive an hour down to sea level, get on a track at sea level, run some super hard interval sessions and then pop back up to altitude
This was before research and studies showed how beneficial this kind of training is
But they were doing it because it just made sense
This was the environment in which he found himself in

The benefits of training the cardiovascular system during the formative years

It’s pretty crazy to look back on it now and see how things like that really did contribute to the trajectory of his path
Peter suspects there is something to being in that environment when you’re young, during the formative years of the cardiovascular system
He looks at his daughter who’s 13 and she loves volleyball and basketball, but doesn’t like cross country or track He’s trying not to be a psycho about it, but he’s also telling her, “ You have this really narrow window in which your cardiovascular system is quite malleable .”
He’s very fortunate that because he was involved in boxing when he was young He had to do so much cardio, both aerobic and anaerobic training during those formative years Even though he’s a fraction of that level of fitness today, he can still ride on what he had then
Peter thinks if one doesn’t push their system hard in the teenage years, it’s very hard to develop it later He doesn’t know if this is true, but this is his impression
To be able to take this one step further with altitude is unbelievable
Ryan agrees that the effects of cardio at a young age definitely play on later in life
Now, for example, Ryan is focused on strength training He is just trying to get as big and strong as he can His weight went up from 167 to 192 over 9 months He was literally doing zero running, none; no other cardio, no biking, no swimming, nothing He hopped on a treadmill at the end of that period when he was at his heaviest, just to see where his mile was at He was going to train for this challenge— he tried this 500 lb deadlift into a sub five minute mile He hopped on a treadmill after his weight session— 5:18 for the mile, with zero training
Ryan thinks when someone develops their cardio early on, later, they just need little touches here and there
He takes pretty short rests between a lot of his lifts and he thinks that’s enough to keep him in 5:8 mile shape without even trying
There are lots of interesting things about how the body develops Kids who are born at altitude and how they have greater potential for cardio-development over time Looking at his family, he’s in the middle of 5 kids His youngest brother, Chad is super into endurance stuff And he was born at altitude, where Ryan was born in Seattle, Washington His family moved to Big Bear, CA when he was 5 (elevation 6,772 ft) His brother was a really good runner He won the national championships in high school cross country He went to Oregon on scholarship But between Ryan and him, there’s not a huge difference in their top end potential for cardio
He’s trying not to be a psycho about it, but he’s also telling her, “ You have this really narrow window in which your cardiovascular system is quite malleable .”
He had to do so much cardio, both aerobic and anaerobic training during those formative years
Even though he’s a fraction of that level of fitness today, he can still ride on what he had then
He doesn’t know if this is true, but this is his impression
He is just trying to get as big and strong as he can
His weight went up from 167 to 192 over 9 months
He was literally doing zero running, none; no other cardio, no biking, no swimming, nothing He hopped on a treadmill at the end of that period when he was at his heaviest, just to see where his mile was at He was going to train for this challenge— he tried this 500 lb deadlift into a sub five minute mile He hopped on a treadmill after his weight session— 5:18 for the mile, with zero training
He hopped on a treadmill at the end of that period when he was at his heaviest, just to see where his mile was at
He was going to train for this challenge— he tried this 500 lb deadlift into a sub five minute mile
He hopped on a treadmill after his weight session— 5:18 for the mile, with zero training
Kids who are born at altitude and how they have greater potential for cardio-development over time
Looking at his family, he’s in the middle of 5 kids His youngest brother, Chad is super into endurance stuff And he was born at altitude, where Ryan was born in Seattle, Washington His family moved to Big Bear, CA when he was 5 (elevation 6,772 ft)
His brother was a really good runner He won the national championships in high school cross country He went to Oregon on scholarship
But between Ryan and him, there’s not a huge difference in their top end potential for cardio
His youngest brother, Chad is super into endurance stuff
And he was born at altitude, where Ryan was born in Seattle, Washington
His family moved to Big Bear, CA when he was 5 (elevation 6,772 ft)
He won the national championships in high school cross country
He went to Oregon on scholarship

The advantages of altitude—living high and training low [9:45]

Peter thinks it is important that he became interested in looking for ways to improve his training, in the years when he was a swimmer He looked at the matrix of living high, living low, training high, training low And coming up with what was the optimal scenario There is a clearer answer to this today than there was 20 years ago Today, the answer is crystal clear— best results are attained from living high and training low, when it comes to intensity It is important to live high and train high for low end aerobic efficiency But one has to train that anaerobic peak at sea level
Peter remembers swimming up in Colorado Springs at the Olympic Training Center as a guy who lived at sea level He would go there for camps and try to push it hard in Colorado; this was a total waste of time This was the exact opposite of what to do
He had friends who lived at sea level but they would sleep in oxygen deprivation tents to replicate living in altitude, so they could train at sea level
How Ryan grew up was the perfect way to do this; they accidentally discovered the efficacy of living high and training low
Ryan notes that it felt good; anytime he would pop down to sea level to do track workout, it was as Peter described This was different from training at altitude, running 400 meter repeats on short or longer aerobic efforts Or trying to do the mile reps super fast at altitude The workouts have to be structured different at altitude He does a lot of intervals when training at altitude, just to break things up For example, he would run a bunch of 200s on really short rest
At sea level, one can spend a lot of time at race pace, working on that turnover, which just can’t be done at altitude without breaking it up more Going down to sea level for workouts felt really good, it worked, and the results were obvious
His wife Sara is a professional marathon runner, she grew up at sea level in Santa Rosa, CA She’s run 2:20 for the marathon, which is the second fastest ever by an American
Thinking of altitude, there is also the effect of how many years someone has spent in altitude For example, he is super good at altitude in terms of running He can run pretty close to his sea level times at 7,000 feet altitude for a marathon
He looked at the matrix of living high, living low, training high, training low
And coming up with what was the optimal scenario
There is a clearer answer to this today than there was 20 years ago
Today, the answer is crystal clear— best results are attained from living high and training low, when it comes to intensity
It is important to live high and train high for low end aerobic efficiency
But one has to train that anaerobic peak at sea level
He would go there for camps and try to push it hard in Colorado; this was a total waste of time
This was the exact opposite of what to do
This was different from training at altitude, running 400 meter repeats on short or longer aerobic efforts
Or trying to do the mile reps super fast at altitude
The workouts have to be structured different at altitude He does a lot of intervals when training at altitude, just to break things up For example, he would run a bunch of 200s on really short rest
He does a lot of intervals when training at altitude, just to break things up
For example, he would run a bunch of 200s on really short rest
Going down to sea level for workouts felt really good, it worked, and the results were obvious
She’s run 2:20 for the marathon, which is the second fastest ever by an American
For example, he is super good at altitude in terms of running
He can run pretty close to his sea level times at 7,000 feet altitude for a marathon

Marathon training [12:30]

One of the most important things about marathon training is someone’s threshold
For a 15 mile threshold, he just runs 15 miles at the marathon intensity
He could run 12, 15 miles at 4:48 per mile, which is about marathon pace at 7,000 feet
If he pops down to sea level, maybe he runs a 4:42 pace, 4:40 pace, but he didn’t get a huge conversion from altitude to sea level
Whereas someone like his wife, Sara, who wasn’t as accustomed at altitude, she’ll get maybe 20 seconds a mile where she’s running that much slower at altitude than she would at sea level But she’s gotten better as she’s spent more time at altitude
But she’s gotten better as she’s spent more time at altitude

Benefits his wife, Sara, has seen living at altitude

They moved to Mammoth Lakes (elevation 7,880 ft) out of college after they graduated from Stanford in 2005 She hated living in Mammoth, at 8,000 feet for such a long time But gradually over time, she’s gotten much, much better at altitude Probably still not as good as he was when he was in his prime, but now they have to even go up to higher altitudes to get similar effects to what they were getting before
They have a place in Crested Butte, Colorado , where they’re sleeping at 9,400 feet Every time she goes up there, they see a massive jump in her fitness just from doing a month up there
One has to keep playing with it because the science is there and his experiences are true, but also the body is dynamic The body is always changing One just can’t repeat the same thing over and over and over again The body is always changing, always adapting
She hated living in Mammoth, at 8,000 feet for such a long time
But gradually over time, she’s gotten much, much better at altitude
Probably still not as good as he was when he was in his prime, but now they have to even go up to higher altitudes to get similar effects to what they were getting before
Every time she goes up there, they see a massive jump in her fitness just from doing a month up there
The body is always changing
One just can’t repeat the same thing over and over and over again
The body is always changing, always adapting

Progressive overload, blood flow restriction, and switching up your workout routine [14:15]

The importance of switching-up training to see growth

That’s a big thing he’s learned lifting weights; if he’s just doing the same lifting all the time and not trying new mechanisms to add weight to the bar, or different tactics, he’s just not going to see growth
That is the fun of running, training, lifting— it’s all a giant experiment; he’s always tweaking little variables He loves to see growth He loves the frustration of not seeing growth, of getting black toes and thinking “ What is going on right now? ” His mind will chew on this for months, and he’ll make little tweaks until he finds it
He loves to see growth
He loves the frustration of not seeing growth, of getting black toes and thinking “ What is going on right now? ”
His mind will chew on this for months, and he’ll make little tweaks until he finds it

“ Then you find it, and bang! It clicks, whether it’s in the weight room or running all of a sudden you’re doing what you couldn’t do before ” – Ryan Hall

Progressive overload

Peter notes that progressive overload is one of the hardest things to do when one is training themself, as most people are Most of us we’re just weekend warriors and we’re sort of our own coaches and it is very easy to get comfortable The challenge of being able to progressively overload doesn’t always mean weight; it can mean sets, reps, reduction in rest time
Recently Peter has become obsessed with blow flow restriction (BFR training) and weight training; that becomes another way to progressively overload, using a fraction of the weight one would normally use See podcast #179 – Jeremy Loenneke, Ph.D.: The science of blood flow restriction—benefits, uses, and what it teaches us about the relationship between muscle size and strength (Oct 11, 2021) Also check out AMA #32 to see how Peter incorporates BFR into his workouts Ryan notes he has been using BFR training too
Most of us we’re just weekend warriors and we’re sort of our own coaches and it is very easy to get comfortable
The challenge of being able to progressively overload doesn’t always mean weight; it can mean sets, reps, reduction in rest time
See podcast #179 – Jeremy Loenneke, Ph.D.: The science of blood flow restriction—benefits, uses, and what it teaches us about the relationship between muscle size and strength (Oct 11, 2021)
Also check out AMA #32 to see how Peter incorporates BFR into his workouts
Ryan notes he has been using BFR training too

Recovery from injury [16:00]

BFR training is helpful for runners, especially after he got hurt Ryan was training for the Beijing Olympics He was at the Olympic training center at Chula Vista , working with a strength coach He was on one of those vibrating platforms to warm up for squatting They were great; he was able to warm up and get into a much deeper squat than he ever had gotten into before But as a runner (most runners are super tight), the ankle mobility wasn’t there He should not be down in a butt to the ground squat; it’s just not beneficial for distance runners Long story short, he ended up tweaking the connection to his patella and that bothered him all the way up to Beijing In Beijing, he was kicking myself so much for getting hurt lifting
Ryan was training for the Beijing Olympics
He was at the Olympic training center at Chula Vista , working with a strength coach
He was on one of those vibrating platforms to warm up for squatting They were great; he was able to warm up and get into a much deeper squat than he ever had gotten into before But as a runner (most runners are super tight), the ankle mobility wasn’t there
He should not be down in a butt to the ground squat; it’s just not beneficial for distance runners
Long story short, he ended up tweaking the connection to his patella and that bothered him all the way up to Beijing In Beijing, he was kicking myself so much for getting hurt lifting
They were great; he was able to warm up and get into a much deeper squat than he ever had gotten into before
But as a runner (most runners are super tight), the ankle mobility wasn’t there
In Beijing, he was kicking myself so much for getting hurt lifting

Lessons learned from competing in the Beijing Olympics [16:45]

Beijing olympics

Peter recalls that Ryan had a pretty good run in Beijing ; he finished 10th Yea, but for Ryan it wasn’t about what place he finished, it was the sensation of clicking He wrote a book about that whole experience, so much went into that Running with Joy: My Daily Journey to the Marathon (published in 2011) But it was also that he wasn’t clicking in training When things are clicking he feels like Tigger , just bounding along as effortless like, “this is going to be fun…you’re kind of licking your chops ”
Yea, but for Ryan it wasn’t about what place he finished, it was the sensation of clicking
He wrote a book about that whole experience, so much went into that Running with Joy: My Daily Journey to the Marathon (published in 2011)
But it was also that he wasn’t clicking in training
When things are clicking he feels like Tigger , just bounding along as effortless like, “this is going to be fun…you’re kind of licking your chops ”
Running with Joy: My Daily Journey to the Marathon (published in 2011)

Lessons learned— a break for recovery is important and the impact of expectations

He didn’t take a big break after running 2:06 at the London Marathon in April 2008 He didn’t take his customary 2 week break where he would put on 10 lbs and not run at all So then he was just flat for the whole build up to Beijing; he wasn’t right going into that race
It’s interesting talking to scientist at the Olympic training center, prepping for the race Talking about how hot and humid it’s going to be This was one of those big life learning experiences for him, where the storyline is— it’s going to be so hot and humid, it’s going to be slow The race will be won in 2:12, 2:11 They just hearing this story over and over again He didn’t do what he learned to do after that, which is, “ You got to be like the Samurai… you got to be ready for any situation that’s going to come and not expect anything ”
He didn’t take his customary 2 week break where he would put on 10 lbs and not run at all
So then he was just flat for the whole build up to Beijing; he wasn’t right going into that race
Talking about how hot and humid it’s going to be
This was one of those big life learning experiences for him, where the storyline is— it’s going to be so hot and humid, it’s going to be slow
The race will be won in 2:12, 2:11
They just hearing this story over and over again
He didn’t do what he learned to do after that, which is, “ You got to be like the Samurai… you got to be ready for any situation that’s going to come and not expect anything ”

“ Expect nothing, be ready for anything ” – Ryan Hall

He wasn’t in that state of mind, he was thought it was going to be chill for the first mile Right from the gun, Sammy’s just gone; the guy who ended up winning the gold medal He just took it out super hard Mentally, Ryan got hit in the chin with an uppercut, right out of the gate because he wasn’t ready for that scenario at all
So then he got back and was in 60th place and he’s trying to win a medal but thinking, “ You don’t win a medal from 60th place ” At that point, he doesn’t have momentum on his side
Right from the gun, Sammy’s just gone; the guy who ended up winning the gold medal
He just took it out super hard
Mentally, Ryan got hit in the chin with an uppercut, right out of the gate because he wasn’t ready for that scenario at all
At that point, he doesn’t have momentum on his side

“ A lot of competing well in anything is getting excited while you’re out there ” – Ryan Hall

One has to be holding this snowball of excitement as the race is playing out He was having the opposite experience of that He was not where he wanted to be He was too far back; he couldn’t even see the leaders; the he helicopter was way off in the distance
He had to coach himself through that
And actually how he did that was by encouraging other guys around home, which isn’t a normal tactic But as he encouraged other people, it encouraged himself He felt better from just trying to help other people out It shifted what was happening inside his mind, inside his heart Then he was able to find his own rhythm and start to work his way up in that race He finished 10th Which he wasn’t stoked about at the time He was trying to get a medal But it’s funny the further removed he gets from these things and the older he gets, he appreciates it more So now he looks back on it, proud of the performance
He was having the opposite experience of that
He was not where he wanted to be
He was too far back; he couldn’t even see the leaders; the he helicopter was way off in the distance
But as he encouraged other people, it encouraged himself
He felt better from just trying to help other people out
It shifted what was happening inside his mind, inside his heart
Then he was able to find his own rhythm and start to work his way up in that race
He finished 10th Which he wasn’t stoked about at the time He was trying to get a medal But it’s funny the further removed he gets from these things and the older he gets, he appreciates it more So now he looks back on it, proud of the performance
Which he wasn’t stoked about at the time
He was trying to get a medal
But it’s funny the further removed he gets from these things and the older he gets, he appreciates it more
So now he looks back on it, proud of the performance

Running with Meb Keflezighi

Peter recalls, “ Meb got a silver if I recall in Athens in 04 , right? ”
Meb Keflezighi wasn’t there in ‘08 He and Ryan were training together up in Mammoth Lakes and he was dealing with a lot of injury issues going into it Ryan thinks he had a DNF at the trials that year in 2007; he had some gnarly hip stuff going on It was actually really cool to see Meb in that situation where he went through so many injuries, so many down times and even mentally struggling with how to handle that and see him pop out at the end of that, win New York, win Boston
He and Meb were neighbors training in Mammoth; they lived 400 meters apart; and he’s always been like a big brother to Ryan
He was in that race when Meb won Boston and that was such a special experience
Ryan remembers he was having a bad day that day He was coming up over Heartbreak Hill and he remembers just yelling at the spectators on the side, asking how Meb was doing when he came past And they were like, “ He was winning when he came past ” Ryan knew if Meb got over Heartbreak Hill in the lead, he was going to win that thing; that was special
Peter notes, it’s hard to believe this was 2014, it was one of those races that is seared into his mind He remembers it well because he trained at the same place as Meb in San Diego, at Fiesta Island ; that’s where all the cycling time trial races are held Peter would train at Fiesta Island 3-4 days a week; it’s 7 Km and perfectly flat Meb would do his tempo runs there Early on a Tuesday or Thursday morning, they’d be the only 2 guys out there; Peter on his bike and Meb running
He and Ryan were training together up in Mammoth Lakes and he was dealing with a lot of injury issues going into it
Ryan thinks he had a DNF at the trials that year in 2007; he had some gnarly hip stuff going on It was actually really cool to see Meb in that situation where he went through so many injuries, so many down times and even mentally struggling with how to handle that and see him pop out at the end of that, win New York, win Boston
It was actually really cool to see Meb in that situation where he went through so many injuries, so many down times and even mentally struggling with how to handle that and see him pop out at the end of that, win New York, win Boston
He was coming up over Heartbreak Hill and he remembers just yelling at the spectators on the side, asking how Meb was doing when he came past
And they were like, “ He was winning when he came past ”
Ryan knew if Meb got over Heartbreak Hill in the lead, he was going to win that thing; that was special
He remembers it well because he trained at the same place as Meb in San Diego, at Fiesta Island ; that’s where all the cycling time trial races are held
Peter would train at Fiesta Island 3-4 days a week; it’s 7 Km and perfectly flat
Meb would do his tempo runs there
Early on a Tuesday or Thursday morning, they’d be the only 2 guys out there; Peter on his bike and Meb running

Importance of speed, power, and strength for runners [22:15]

It’s worth pointing out to people listening to this who aren’t familiar with some of these times, just how fast you guys run For a marathon pace 4:42 to 4:48 [12.5-12.8 mph], these are such insanely fast speeds that the likelihood that a person could run that speed for half a mile, is virtually zero, right? Peter knows right now he could not go out and run 800 meters, half a mile at that pace
Peter used to have a sign in his office, it was a pace clock that said 4:42 Many, many years ago, they had a treadmill set up to that pace [12.76 mph] The idea was they had random people show up and run, to see how long they could sustain that pace They would put a harness around a person’s waist and they’d make them run at 4:42 And these people were getting shot off the back of this treadmill after 30 seconds, 40 seconds, one person made it a minute. Right? The reason Peter put this sign up in his office was because he was put off by the notion that people would say, “ Hey man, we’re training for a marathon, not a sprint ” He tried to make the point that if someone wants to win a marathon, it feels like sprinting
It’s one thing to go out and run a marathon and take hours to do it
It’s another thing to go out and win a marathon
If someone is trying to win a marathon, they have to understand the pain that these guys are in They have to understand what 4:42 means; it is insanity For Ryan, it’s below his threshold, but his threshold is so high
For Peter, looking at Meb win that race, having seen him in the months prior, running so fast doing tempo repeats while Peter was on his bike, it is really amazing
For a marathon pace 4:42 to 4:48 [12.5-12.8 mph], these are such insanely fast speeds that the likelihood that a person could run that speed for half a mile, is virtually zero, right? Peter knows right now he could not go out and run 800 meters, half a mile at that pace
Peter knows right now he could not go out and run 800 meters, half a mile at that pace
Many, many years ago, they had a treadmill set up to that pace [12.76 mph]
The idea was they had random people show up and run, to see how long they could sustain that pace
They would put a harness around a person’s waist and they’d make them run at 4:42
And these people were getting shot off the back of this treadmill after 30 seconds, 40 seconds, one person made it a minute. Right?
The reason Peter put this sign up in his office was because he was put off by the notion that people would say, “ Hey man, we’re training for a marathon, not a sprint ”
He tried to make the point that if someone wants to win a marathon, it feels like sprinting
They have to understand what 4:42 means; it is insanity
For Ryan, it’s below his threshold, but his threshold is so high

“ I wish everybody could try to run at that pace… because otherwise I think a lot of what we’re going to talk about today is very hard to understand from a physiological standpoint ” – Peter Attia

Ryan agrees; his half marathon pace is a 4:33 mile [13.2 mph]; so that’s 34 seconds per 200 meters Go out to the track and try to run 200 meters in 34 sec; it’s pretty crazy The guys who win the race make this look so effortless Like Kipochag , when he’s running sub 2— it looks so slow, but it’s 34 seconds per 200 meters That’s very fast
Go out to the track and try to run 200 meters in 34 sec; it’s pretty crazy
The guys who win the race make this look so effortless
Like Kipochag , when he’s running sub 2— it looks so slow, but it’s 34 seconds per 200 meters That’s very fast
That’s very fast

Distance runners need speed

This is important, distance runners are not slow world class marathoners
He wants the guy he’s coaching right now to run 400 meters in 49 seconds That’s the kind of speed that is needed to win One doesn’t have to have that speed while they’re doing marathon training, but they need to have had that speed before that, as a kid growing up
This is why, when Ryan coaches kids he tells them, “ Get as fast as you can, because if you want to be a world class marathoner, you need 49 second speed, right? ” That will carry one on to be able to run a great mile and a great 5K It’s all built off speed
This is what he work on with training— develop the 5K speed, the mile speed first This is directly correlated to the sprint speed Develop that first, then grow into the 10K speed, the the half marathon speed, then the marathon speed
When he’s training for a marathon, he’s doing 50 meter sprints twice a week in the middle of marathon training 50 meter sprints, little hill sprints He’s in the weight room; it’s a power to weight ratio— one has to have power This is an area where he has grown a ton since he retired from running
As he looks back at the weights he was doing, he thinks, “O h, I wish I could go back and do things a little bit differently in the weight room ” He doesn’t think he used his time effectively there
That’s the kind of speed that is needed to win
One doesn’t have to have that speed while they’re doing marathon training, but they need to have had that speed before that, as a kid growing up
That will carry one on to be able to run a great mile and a great 5K
It’s all built off speed
This is directly correlated to the sprint speed
Develop that first, then grow into the 10K speed, the the half marathon speed, then the marathon speed
50 meter sprints, little hill sprints
He’s in the weight room; it’s a power to weight ratio— one has to have power This is an area where he has grown a ton since he retired from running
This is an area where he has grown a ton since he retired from running
He doesn’t think he used his time effectively there

Strength training for power and speed

Power is so important for all distance runners
A marathon runner has to have that speed Maybe it’s not as important for super ultra stuff
Peter agrees that power matters
He knows Meb was doing deadlifts as he was preparing for 2014 He talked to a guy who had overseen part of his strength training program; one of the things he was really fixated on was his strength to weight ratio as measured by a deadlift A hex bar deadlift with a high concentric and a dropped eccentric So one picks it up then drops it; pick it up, drop it The reason for that being the eccentric tears the muscle fibers, and tearing muscle fibers is what’s creating hypertrophy They didn’t want any hypertrophy; they just wanted the strength So it was pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it When Meb first started, his strength to body weight ratio for a single rep max was 1.3 This isn’t great Peter thinks when he was going into Boston he was 1.3 or maybe 2.7
Maybe it’s not as important for super ultra stuff
He talked to a guy who had overseen part of his strength training program; one of the things he was really fixated on was his strength to weight ratio as measured by a deadlift
A hex bar deadlift with a high concentric and a dropped eccentric So one picks it up then drops it; pick it up, drop it The reason for that being the eccentric tears the muscle fibers, and tearing muscle fibers is what’s creating hypertrophy They didn’t want any hypertrophy; they just wanted the strength So it was pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it
When Meb first started, his strength to body weight ratio for a single rep max was 1.3 This isn’t great Peter thinks when he was going into Boston he was 1.3 or maybe 2.7
So one picks it up then drops it; pick it up, drop it
The reason for that being the eccentric tears the muscle fibers, and tearing muscle fibers is what’s creating hypertrophy
They didn’t want any hypertrophy; they just wanted the strength
So it was pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it
This isn’t great
Peter thinks when he was going into Boston he was 1.3 or maybe 2.7

How strength factors into running form and speed

When someone runs, they have to hit the ground with a toe
Let’s assume the toe is striking the ground, not the heel The harder one hits the ground, the harder the ground hits them The harder the ground hits, the higher one goes The higher one goes, the further their stride
They calculated that for Meb to run the pace he wanted to run in Boston that year, he needed to add 4 inches to his stride To do that basically required taking his maximal force per unit, body weight from something like 1.3 to 2.7 That was going to translate to 4 more inches of stride So he didn’t increase his stride rate; he just increased stride length and that was done through strength
Peter suspects this is more widely understood in running now Because there was a day when runners were told “ don’t lift weights… you want to be as skinny as possible; it’s not about that type of strength ”
Ryan agrees, now runners are super into strength training
His understanding has changed so much throughout the years He used to always think about the action of his foot hitting the ground He always thought of it like being a tiger paw and pulling the ground That’s not what a runner is going for Like Peter was saying, a runner is stomping the ground A runner is putting force into the ground that’s going to shoot them up and out He never thought about it that way; he was always just trying to paw the ground This is where a runner wants to use their glutes ; they are the strongest, biggest muscle Yet so many runners (himself included) had very underdeveloped glutes He would’ve been way faster, way better if his glute strength was better Peter notes that his hamstrings were probably weak and incredibly tight Ryan agrees
Peter asks if these insights came from sprinters
He thinks Usain Bolt probably has the greatest force per unit mass ever measured on a force plate treadmill These treadmills tell how much force the runner is putting into the ground. He thinks Usain Bolt is able to put 6 times his body weight into the ground with each foot strike It’s crazy to think how strong that is
The harder one hits the ground, the harder the ground hits them
The harder the ground hits, the higher one goes
The higher one goes, the further their stride
To do that basically required taking his maximal force per unit, body weight from something like 1.3 to 2.7
That was going to translate to 4 more inches of stride
So he didn’t increase his stride rate; he just increased stride length and that was done through strength
Because there was a day when runners were told “ don’t lift weights… you want to be as skinny as possible; it’s not about that type of strength ”
He used to always think about the action of his foot hitting the ground
He always thought of it like being a tiger paw and pulling the ground That’s not what a runner is going for
Like Peter was saying, a runner is stomping the ground A runner is putting force into the ground that’s going to shoot them up and out He never thought about it that way; he was always just trying to paw the ground
This is where a runner wants to use their glutes ; they are the strongest, biggest muscle Yet so many runners (himself included) had very underdeveloped glutes He would’ve been way faster, way better if his glute strength was better Peter notes that his hamstrings were probably weak and incredibly tight Ryan agrees
That’s not what a runner is going for
A runner is putting force into the ground that’s going to shoot them up and out
He never thought about it that way; he was always just trying to paw the ground
Yet so many runners (himself included) had very underdeveloped glutes
He would’ve been way faster, way better if his glute strength was better
Peter notes that his hamstrings were probably weak and incredibly tight
Ryan agrees
These treadmills tell how much force the runner is putting into the ground.
He thinks Usain Bolt is able to put 6 times his body weight into the ground with each foot strike It’s crazy to think how strong that is
It’s crazy to think how strong that is

“ For people who are listening, if you’re a runner, like try that next time you go out, try like pushing through the ground rather than trying to paw the ground ” – Ryan Hall

How one contacts the ground is so important
A lot of people are rolling through the ground
It’s very difficult to utilize those glutes to really put force into the ground when one is rolling from their heel to their toe
A runner has to contact the ground midfoot and just stomp the ground Weight training helps tremendously with that This is so important for sprinters The hex bar deadlift – “That’s his favorite lift” When he coaches runners, that’s the first lift that they do; it’s the most important one This is one that he’s always trying to increase the amount of load they’re able to handle
Weight training helps tremendously with that
This is so important for sprinters
The hex bar deadlift – “That’s his favorite lift” When he coaches runners, that’s the first lift that they do; it’s the most important one This is one that he’s always trying to increase the amount of load they’re able to handle
When he coaches runners, that’s the first lift that they do; it’s the most important one
This is one that he’s always trying to increase the amount of load they’re able to handle

Analyzing running stride to improve speed [31:00]

Peter asks if he has used a device called a G flight It’s these two little red boxes that shine a laser beam between them and they measure how high someone can jump and their ground contact time This has become part of Peter’s training It shins a little laser across the floor; one lays the device on the floor and stands between them static then jumps up and down It will tell, with incredible precision how high one has jumped because it measures how long they were off the groups This is a simple physics formula to figure out how high the person jumped
It can be used for a static vertical jump, but Peter thinks it would be more interesting for runners to used it for depth jumps
So now one puts it in front of a box and has the athlete jump off the box, hit the ground and jump up Now it provides 2 pieces of information 1) It tells how long the athlete was in contact with the ground and 2) How high they went
The marker of a great runner (or a person who is very good at generating force) is they should have a higher vertical jump when they jump off a box and land and go up than just a static jump
Most people will jump higher static off the ground than off the box
The reason is their ground contact time is way too long and they dissipate too much force
Peter forgets the metrics but thinks you want to be under 0.28 seconds of ground contact time He’s been working on this He is still jumping higher from static than a box And his ground contact time is always north of 0.3 seconds
This is interesting for him not because he’s interested in running fast, but because he’s interested in his feet becoming very good at load dissipation and load transfer and force transfer He thinks this is a very important skill as one ages, whether one is walking down a flight of stairs or hiking But for a runner, he would suspect if people could get down to a ground contact time of 0.2-0.25 this would increase their speed
Ryan is reminded of Jim Ryun ; he was a heel striker, as was Dathan Ritzenhein He wonders how these guys can run so fast from heel striking Peter thinks it a combination of things: 1) Some people really adapt to a certain way of doing things and it might be that they run really well despite that 2) Experts on this suggest that fore-foot to toe striking is the way we were meant to run If one were to look at how our ancestors ran and how force transfer would be most efficient; it’s not striking on the heel
Ryan agrees and is interested not in what someone can get away with but what is optimal
He has spent a lot of time training in Kenya and Ethiopia; runners there don’t go and cool down after a run The best runners on the planet don’t cool down He learned the importance of cooling down in middle school cross country He always asks himself, what is optimal
It’s these two little red boxes that shine a laser beam between them and they measure how high someone can jump and their ground contact time
This has become part of Peter’s training
It shins a little laser across the floor; one lays the device on the floor and stands between them static then jumps up and down
It will tell, with incredible precision how high one has jumped because it measures how long they were off the groups
This is a simple physics formula to figure out how high the person jumped
Now it provides 2 pieces of information
1) It tells how long the athlete was in contact with the ground and
2) How high they went
He’s been working on this
He is still jumping higher from static than a box
And his ground contact time is always north of 0.3 seconds
He thinks this is a very important skill as one ages, whether one is walking down a flight of stairs or hiking
But for a runner, he would suspect if people could get down to a ground contact time of 0.2-0.25 this would increase their speed
He wonders how these guys can run so fast from heel striking
Peter thinks it a combination of things: 1) Some people really adapt to a certain way of doing things and it might be that they run really well despite that 2) Experts on this suggest that fore-foot to toe striking is the way we were meant to run If one were to look at how our ancestors ran and how force transfer would be most efficient; it’s not striking on the heel
1) Some people really adapt to a certain way of doing things and it might be that they run really well despite that
2) Experts on this suggest that fore-foot to toe striking is the way we were meant to run
If one were to look at how our ancestors ran and how force transfer would be most efficient; it’s not striking on the heel
The best runners on the planet don’t cool down
He learned the importance of cooling down in middle school cross country
He always asks himself, what is optimal

The crazy idea that got Ryan hooked on running [35:15]

Peter notes that it was the Houston marathon where Ryan became the first American to break an hour for a half marathon; and he still holds the American record for that

Figure 1. Ryan Hall’s record time for the North American half marathon . Image credit: Way Back Machine

Peter asks how old he was when he started running
Ryan was 13 years old
Peter read somewhere that his first run was around Big Bear Lake, a 15 mile run; he asks “ How much did that hurt? ”

“ Oh, it was the pain train the whole time. There was no magic to that run .” – Ryan Hall

He was suffering the whole time
He was wearing basketball shoes
He had no idea what he was doing
His legs just felt like they just got pounded into a million little pieces halfway through it
He had to stop multiple times
He stopped at a liquor store and got a SOBE drink
He stopped to ice his legs
If his dad wasn’t there, he probably wouldn’t have made it around the lake

“ But that was such a learning experience for me now as a dad of, for myself being like, how do we respond to our kids and their crazy ideas? ” – Ryan Hall

He thinks about this crazy thing he decided to do when he was 13 and what it did It changed the trajectory of his entire life It all started with some crazy idea It would have been very easy for his dad to suggest that he start with a 2-mile run instead of a 15-mile run But that wouldn’t have captured him in the same way He needed a hook to be forever changed, something big He’s so glad his dad didn’t gun down his ideas but supported him to go and do it
Peter can’t imagine the pain; he had a similar experience when he was 12 He woke up one day and just wanted to go run 5 miles He wanted to see how fast he could run 5 miles He put on his crappy shoes and went out and ran 5 miles It hurt so much The next day though he wanted to do it again So he did it again and it hurt so much And again on the 3rd day, and it hurt so much Then on the 4th day it changed; he felt awesome Then he never stopped; he just started adding more distance
It changed the trajectory of his entire life
It all started with some crazy idea
It would have been very easy for his dad to suggest that he start with a 2-mile run instead of a 15-mile run
But that wouldn’t have captured him in the same way
He needed a hook to be forever changed, something big
He’s so glad his dad didn’t gun down his ideas but supported him to go and do it
He woke up one day and just wanted to go run 5 miles
He wanted to see how fast he could run 5 miles
He put on his crappy shoes and went out and ran 5 miles It hurt so much
The next day though he wanted to do it again So he did it again and it hurt so much And again on the 3rd day, and it hurt so much Then on the 4th day it changed; he felt awesome Then he never stopped; he just started adding more distance
It hurt so much
So he did it again and it hurt so much
And again on the 3rd day, and it hurt so much
Then on the 4th day it changed; he felt awesome
Then he never stopped; he just started adding more distance

The mental aspect of training and the power of reframing negative thoughts [37:45]

Running is very nonlinear The pain he was feeling at 5 miles; this is a quarter of the distance of 13 miles in terms of effort
Peter wonders what was going on in Ryan’s mind at the 5 mile mark, at the 8 mile mark Did he love the pain, love proving to himself that he could do it; or was he thinking “ why am I doing this? ”
Ryan notes, “ the thing about distance running is… what’s going on in your head is hugely important ”
Now when he trains athletes he tells them “ you got to have a whole bunch of different arrows essentially that you can pull out and use. Cause sometimes you use one thing, it doesn’t work; you’ve got to go to something else .”
He has all these different tactics and managing pain and discomfort, but honestly, one of the biggest ones that is most helpful is simply turning the mind off Turn the mind off and keep putting one foot in front of the other It sounds so simple and basic But in the last 5K of the Boston Marathon when he is in a world of pain, there are no profound thoughts going on in his mind It’s as simple as putting one foot in front of the other as fast as one can In moments like that he often turns his brain off and just keeps moving
The pain he was feeling at 5 miles; this is a quarter of the distance of 13 miles in terms of effort
Did he love the pain, love proving to himself that he could do it; or was he thinking “ why am I doing this? ”
Turn the mind off and keep putting one foot in front of the other
It sounds so simple and basic
But in the last 5K of the Boston Marathon when he is in a world of pain, there are no profound thoughts going on in his mind It’s as simple as putting one foot in front of the other as fast as one can In moments like that he often turns his brain off and just keeps moving
It’s as simple as putting one foot in front of the other as fast as one can
In moments like that he often turns his brain off and just keeps moving

The importance of being in the present moment

He gets in trouble when he starts thinking too far down the road It’s easy to get overwhelmed with the scope of the challenge, especially when trying to do something one has never done before and being in the worst discomfort That’s what makes people give up and give in
Ryan has found if he can bring himself back to the present moment of what he’s doing right now; there is always enough to get him through the moment There’s not always enough to get him through all that’s coming down the line But if he only tries to do what is in front of him, run the mile he is in and bring himself to the present moment, there is always enough to get through that moment This is why he titled his book Run the Mile You’re In
It’s easy to get overwhelmed with the scope of the challenge, especially when trying to do something one has never done before and being in the worst discomfort That’s what makes people give up and give in
That’s what makes people give up and give in
There’s not always enough to get him through all that’s coming down the line
But if he only tries to do what is in front of him, run the mile he is in and bring himself to the present moment, there is always enough to get through that moment This is why he titled his book Run the Mile You’re In
This is why he titled his book Run the Mile You’re In

“ You just got to bring yourself back to being present in this moment, and there’s always enough to get you through this moment .” – Ryan Hall

Comparing running to swimming— expectations are important in each

Peter compares the difficulties of running to swimming “ One of the things about running that strikes me as difficult in that regard is you can’t disassociate yourself from the visual cues of how much lies ahead ” In contrast, when swimming long distances he had a rule to never look up towards short He would only know he was near land when he started to see the bottom of the ocean This happens around half a mile from shore
He remembers a bad experience swimming across Lake Tahoe It wasn’t supposed to be a difficult swim It was 12 miles and should have taken a little under 6 hours The boat captain he hired didn’t understand the navigation They ended up zigzagging across the lake instead of going straight across When he hit the 5 hour mark he thought he should be 2 miles from the shore He asked the captain how much farther but looking toward the shore the number made sense “ I stupidly looked towards the shore and had a mental image of what it looked like ” He couldn’t make out any details, trees or anything on shore He put his head down and hammered for 1 more hour thinking he should see the bottom of Lake Tahoe soon But after an hour, he lifted his head up and everything looked exactly the same This is the closest he ever came to quitting a swim He was mentally destroyed He asked how far they were from the shore and the captain said maybe 4 miles Peter was pissed; he had in his mind that he was much closer He wasn’t in that moment Unlike running, he could swim with his eyes closed
Peter notes the fortitude needed to run the race The example Ryan talked about of being in Beijing, knowing he was in 60th, seeing the helicopter over the leaders a quarter mile up the road That requires an extra level of mental fortitude to stay competitive in the race Ryan replies, “ it all comes back to getting excited, right? If you’re going to perform well, you’ve got to be excited about how you’re doing… find something to get excited about in that moment ”
Ryan talks a lot about like reframing things in one’s mind This is one of the most helpful things he does all the time
“ One of the things about running that strikes me as difficult in that regard is you can’t disassociate yourself from the visual cues of how much lies ahead ”
In contrast, when swimming long distances he had a rule to never look up towards short
He would only know he was near land when he started to see the bottom of the ocean This happens around half a mile from shore
This happens around half a mile from shore
It wasn’t supposed to be a difficult swim
It was 12 miles and should have taken a little under 6 hours
The boat captain he hired didn’t understand the navigation
They ended up zigzagging across the lake instead of going straight across
When he hit the 5 hour mark he thought he should be 2 miles from the shore He asked the captain how much farther but looking toward the shore the number made sense “ I stupidly looked towards the shore and had a mental image of what it looked like ” He couldn’t make out any details, trees or anything on shore He put his head down and hammered for 1 more hour thinking he should see the bottom of Lake Tahoe soon
But after an hour, he lifted his head up and everything looked exactly the same This is the closest he ever came to quitting a swim He was mentally destroyed
He asked how far they were from the shore and the captain said maybe 4 miles Peter was pissed; he had in his mind that he was much closer He wasn’t in that moment Unlike running, he could swim with his eyes closed
He asked the captain how much farther but looking toward the shore the number made sense
“ I stupidly looked towards the shore and had a mental image of what it looked like ”
He couldn’t make out any details, trees or anything on shore
He put his head down and hammered for 1 more hour thinking he should see the bottom of Lake Tahoe soon
This is the closest he ever came to quitting a swim
He was mentally destroyed
Peter was pissed; he had in his mind that he was much closer
He wasn’t in that moment
Unlike running, he could swim with his eyes closed
The example Ryan talked about of being in Beijing, knowing he was in 60th, seeing the helicopter over the leaders a quarter mile up the road That requires an extra level of mental fortitude to stay competitive in the race Ryan replies, “ it all comes back to getting excited, right? If you’re going to perform well, you’ve got to be excited about how you’re doing… find something to get excited about in that moment ”
That requires an extra level of mental fortitude to stay competitive in the race
Ryan replies, “ it all comes back to getting excited, right? If you’re going to perform well, you’ve got to be excited about how you’re doing… find something to get excited about in that moment ”
This is one of the most helpful things he does all the time

The Grand Canyon “farmers carry” challenge

For example, he was doing a crazy challenge he calls chop wood, carry water He splits a cord of wood at his house in Flagstaff , and then drives to the Grand Canyon He runs down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, holding these 7-gallon water jugs They weigh about 62 lbs each when they’re full It’s a 10K (6.3 mile) run down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon; it drops 5,000 feet He gets to the Colorado river, fills them up and farmer-carries them out of the Grand Canyon
He remembers being down at the bottom and filling up those jugs and just looking up at the trail he had just run down He thought, “ what did I get myself into? ” The sun was already getting down super low And that was the hardest part of the whole challenge for him was just starting back up Because he knew what was waiting for him; how far he had to go
Peter clarifies, “y ou carried 63 lbs in each hand of water up 6.3 miles ” Yes, up a 7% grade, 5,000 feet It took 6 hours
Peter asks about his hands, did he use wraps around his hands or something? No, he just has good calluses on his hands from all the lifting he’s been doing His hands took a beating But it was more cardio than strength He would stop every 50 meters or so to put them down; so it was a lot of carries
Peter notes, “ That is actually more insane than your deadlift 500 lbs run a five minute mile attempt, which also was super impressive. But this farmer’s-carry thing is ridiculous. ”
Ryan agrees, it was a crazy experience He had to reframe a lot He initially thought it would take him 4 hours to carry these out; his goal was to beat the sun But it was already 3 or 4’oclock when he got down to the bottom He found himself getting frustrated about how it was going Thoughts of, “ I’m never going to get out of here ” were going through his mind
He splits a cord of wood at his house in Flagstaff , and then drives to the Grand Canyon
He runs down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, holding these 7-gallon water jugs They weigh about 62 lbs each when they’re full
It’s a 10K (6.3 mile) run down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon; it drops 5,000 feet
He gets to the Colorado river, fills them up and farmer-carries them out of the Grand Canyon
They weigh about 62 lbs each when they’re full
He thought, “ what did I get myself into? ”
The sun was already getting down super low
And that was the hardest part of the whole challenge for him was just starting back up Because he knew what was waiting for him; how far he had to go
Because he knew what was waiting for him; how far he had to go
Yes, up a 7% grade, 5,000 feet
It took 6 hours
No, he just has good calluses on his hands from all the lifting he’s been doing
His hands took a beating
But it was more cardio than strength
He would stop every 50 meters or so to put them down; so it was a lot of carries
He had to reframe a lot
He initially thought it would take him 4 hours to carry these out; his goal was to beat the sun
But it was already 3 or 4’oclock when he got down to the bottom
He found himself getting frustrated about how it was going
Thoughts of, “ I’m never going to get out of here ” were going through his mind

The power of accepting and reframing negative thoughts

“ I had to reframe it and come to peace with what was happening out there and just accept it and then get excited about it ” – Ryan Hall

He was looking at the moon coming up; it was so epic
It was dark
His buddies were there cheering for him, giving him food and water and stuff
It was just such a beautiful experience

“ But I had to reframe it to be able to see it that way because how I was seeing it at the bottom of the canyon was like, oh man, this is going to suck, what I get myself into; I don’t know if I can get out of here ” – Ryan Hall

Once he was able to accept all those negative thoughts and then reframe it, then he was able to embrace this really beautiful experience
This was one that was life changing for him
One that he’ll never forget; getting to the top of that canyon and putting those jugs down How good it felt to finish
How good it felt to finish

“ But I had to kind of like change how I was thinking about the whole situation, which is what you have to do when you’re in a race and it’s not unfolding… how you want it to unfold .” – Ryan Hall

This is something Peter can relate to on a number of his swims where things didn’t go well Ryan is right, there is something about saying, “ I’m not going to quit; I’m going to put my head down and I’m going to do this ” When one gets to the other end, it’s pretty remarkable
One of the things Peter learned from watching other swimming coaches is— when a swimmer says they want to quit, don’t let them do it Tell them to give it another 10 minutes then talk about it again He makes them do this 3 times Part of it is just to show them that they can swim for another 30 minutes So maybe if one can swim for another 30 minutes, then they could probably swim another 4 hours or whatever the time is He acknowledges their desire to quit and after 30 minutes, that is fine, they can But there is no substitute for the feeling one has when finishing
Ryan is right, there is something about saying, “ I’m not going to quit; I’m going to put my head down and I’m going to do this ”
When one gets to the other end, it’s pretty remarkable
Tell them to give it another 10 minutes then talk about it again
He makes them do this 3 times
Part of it is just to show them that they can swim for another 30 minutes
So maybe if one can swim for another 30 minutes, then they could probably swim another 4 hours or whatever the time is
He acknowledges their desire to quit and after 30 minutes, that is fine, they can
But there is no substitute for the feeling one has when finishing

Ryan’s pace during the farmers-carry up the Grand Canyon

Ryan’s challenge strikes Peter as the hardest physical thing he could ever imagine doing
He asks what kind of pace Ryan was at, a slow jog? It was basically a fast walk He wanted to make his legs and heart do as much of the work as possible Just holding that much weight in ones hands becomes an issue
This was harder than running a marathon because during a marathon his heart rate is around 167 In this challenge it was probably 195, 197 He has a really low heart rate to begin with He couldn’t get it over 200 When he was at his fittest, his resting heart rate was 27 Now it is nowhere near that
The first 17 or 20 miles of a marathon feel pretty good He’s conversational He’s floating along; it’s just fun; he’s enjoying the ride
This challenge was like doing interval training He was going into his 32nd carry, set it down, take as minimal rest as possible Maybe a 30 second rest He would catch is breath and go again He was breathing super hard when he set it down He sounded like a truck the whole time He is going to have a video coming out pretty soon and it shows him breathing super hard This carried on for 6 hours; doing the most intense thing he had ever done before He was not used to breathing that hard for so long
Peter asked how much he drank
It was basically a fast walk
He wanted to make his legs and heart do as much of the work as possible
Just holding that much weight in ones hands becomes an issue
In this challenge it was probably 195, 197
He has a really low heart rate to begin with
He couldn’t get it over 200
When he was at his fittest, his resting heart rate was 27
Now it is nowhere near that
He’s conversational
He’s floating along; it’s just fun; he’s enjoying the ride
He was going into his 32nd carry, set it down, take as minimal rest as possible Maybe a 30 second rest He would catch is breath and go again
He was breathing super hard when he set it down He sounded like a truck the whole time He is going to have a video coming out pretty soon and it shows him breathing super hard
This carried on for 6 hours; doing the most intense thing he had ever done before
He was not used to breathing that hard for so long
Maybe a 30 second rest
He would catch is breath and go again
He sounded like a truck the whole time
He is going to have a video coming out pretty soon and it shows him breathing super hard

“ The amount of water and calories I was taking in was insane ” – Ryan Hall

He had a lot of buddies helping him One guy was in charge of doing his food and water after every 3rd carry He was taking in water and then sugar— eating gummy worms like a maniac He probably took in 3000 calories coming up from the canyon He was burning so many calories He weighed 183 lbs, was carrying 124 lbs of water, and going up 5,000 feet His metabolism was unreal This was a big part about why he wanted to do this The most important part of training is consistency
One guy was in charge of doing his food and water after every 3rd carry
He was taking in water and then sugar— eating gummy worms like a maniac
He probably took in 3000 calories coming up from the canyon
He was burning so many calories
He weighed 183 lbs, was carrying 124 lbs of water, and going up 5,000 feet
His metabolism was unreal This was a big part about why he wanted to do this The most important part of training is consistency
This was a big part about why he wanted to do this
The most important part of training is consistency

“ It blows my mind what my body’s capable of doing; and my athletes are capable of doing when you’re just consistent ” – Ryan Hall

Training for this challenge

When he was training for this, most of the time he did 20 minute carries every other day 20 minutes with 65 lbs in each hand 20 minutes of— 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off; 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off
He was able to do a 6-hour carry out of the canyon
He trained on flats He could have trained better but he’s: a full-time dad, coaches his wife, has an online training business ( Run Free Training ) He didn’t have time to do hour-long water carries
It’s easy to be consistent when it’s 20 minutes; he would get home late at night and put on the headlamp He could be consistent with 20 minutes not with an hour
20 minutes with 65 lbs in each hand
20 minutes of— 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off; 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off
He could have trained better but he’s: a full-time dad, coaches his wife, has an online training business ( Run Free Training )
He didn’t have time to do hour-long water carries
He could be consistent with 20 minutes not with an hour

“ I think a big part about being successful in running fitness is like, just make the bar low, make it easy to be consistent” – Ryan Hall

The importance of fueling, and Ryan’s marathon diet [52:00]

He knows how important fueling is when doing any kind of ultra stuff
He knew if he took in enough calories and stayed hydrated, he was going to be okay in the Grand Canyon challenge With proper fueling, he could get through anything
With proper fueling, he could get through anything

Learning from mistakes

Peter asked how much he needed to experiment with fueling because this is something he has experimented with a lot on his own
Even for modest forms of endurance training, learning the fuel and making dumb mistakes was important
Peter did one training swim many years ago It was the longest swim he would do before the actual, 24 mile swim It was 18 miles Someone told him a good way to avoid getting the runs is to take Imodium Peter had never had the runs when swimming, but would hate to get it so he tried the Imodium before this swim But he didn’t take the recommended dose, he took 2x He thinks his regimen was to drink 200 mL fluid every 20 minutes 1 hour of fluid multiplied by a 7-8 hour swim The last 4 miles, he thought he was going to die He was so bloated and it didn’t occur to him why— 8 hours earlier he had taken Imodium His swim started in La Jolla ; he swam up to Solana beach and then back down When he got back to shore, his friend who was guiding him, pulls up the kayak on the beach and Peter picks up the front of the kayak and carries it with him It’s a beautiful day in La Jolla; families are playing everywhere This kid had dug a big hole in the ground next to his sandcastle As Peter walked by he puked into this hole; it looked like the 8 L of whatever he was drinking Then he realized, Imodium is not for swims
The fuel is important He knows some athletes who get sick if they eat sugar; the have to use more complex carbohydrates
How deliberate was Ryan in figuring out the right ratio of fuels?
Ryan was super specific when he was running professionally and those experiences carried over into the farmer-carry Grand Canyon challenge
One can train their gut to take in stuff
Problems arise when one eats new stuff they’re not used to
It was the longest swim he would do before the actual, 24 mile swim
It was 18 miles
Someone told him a good way to avoid getting the runs is to take Imodium
Peter had never had the runs when swimming, but would hate to get it so he tried the Imodium before this swim But he didn’t take the recommended dose, he took 2x
He thinks his regimen was to drink 200 mL fluid every 20 minutes 1 hour of fluid multiplied by a 7-8 hour swim
The last 4 miles, he thought he was going to die He was so bloated and it didn’t occur to him why— 8 hours earlier he had taken Imodium
His swim started in La Jolla ; he swam up to Solana beach and then back down
When he got back to shore, his friend who was guiding him, pulls up the kayak on the beach and Peter picks up the front of the kayak and carries it with him
It’s a beautiful day in La Jolla; families are playing everywhere
This kid had dug a big hole in the ground next to his sandcastle
As Peter walked by he puked into this hole; it looked like the 8 L of whatever he was drinking
Then he realized, Imodium is not for swims
But he didn’t take the recommended dose, he took 2x
1 hour of fluid multiplied by a 7-8 hour swim
He was so bloated and it didn’t occur to him why— 8 hours earlier he had taken Imodium
He knows some athletes who get sick if they eat sugar; the have to use more complex carbohydrates

Ryan’s pre-marathon diet and fuel during the race

2 days before a marathon, he’s carbo-loading The nutritionist he worked with advised him to spread the load out so he wouldn’t feel bloated and terrible the day before the race He would eat 400 calories of extra carbohydrates for 2 days before the race This was on top of the carbohydrates he would normally eat when training hard
Those carbs would be super simple He wanted to make it easy on his system There is a time and place for complex carbs and a high fiber diet; not before a race He would eat white rice, pasta; he really liked sourdough bread because of its lower glycemic index and it digests easily Maltodextrin is a carb he likes to take in; it’s a tasteless, liquid calorie He can mix it with protein powder, shake it up, and shoot it down But you has to be careful, he’s had some bad experiences with other branded stuff
You never wants to try something new leading up to a race; always try it in training
His pre-race meal was a liquid meal because he would wake up really full from all the carb loading he had done the day before 3 hours before the race he would shake liquid maltodextrin with protein powder, and add a little bit of olive oil as a health fat to help slow things down a little
He would take a gel right on the starting line
He would be sipping on a water bottle the whole time
He would be able to put a water bottle on a table every 5K These would start off dilute and get increasingly concentrated as the race went on The reason for this is that the body absorbs things more easily when it’s not tired He wanted to make sure he was front loading his carbon intake during the marathon because the body can process it a lot easier When you’re 40K into a marathon, you don’t feel like taking in carbs at all Often he would take a swig of a water bottle and spit it out; it tricks the body into thinking it’s getting carbs but it doesn’t get anything This would give a little jolt of energy with just 2K to go
He would have a gel at 15K; at 30K he would have a caffeinated gel He would time his caffeine intake to where he was taking it 75 minutes prior to the start of the race Caffeine is really interesting; when it came on board he couldn’t imagine doing a race without it There was no going back People can have very different experiences with it though He’s learned from science that it increases one’s core temperature which is detrimental to endurance activities; but that hasn’t been his experience He is 100% faster with caffeine on board than without it
The nutritionist he worked with advised him to spread the load out so he wouldn’t feel bloated and terrible the day before the race
He would eat 400 calories of extra carbohydrates for 2 days before the race This was on top of the carbohydrates he would normally eat when training hard
This was on top of the carbohydrates he would normally eat when training hard
He wanted to make it easy on his system
There is a time and place for complex carbs and a high fiber diet; not before a race
He would eat white rice, pasta; he really liked sourdough bread because of its lower glycemic index and it digests easily
Maltodextrin is a carb he likes to take in; it’s a tasteless, liquid calorie He can mix it with protein powder, shake it up, and shoot it down But you has to be careful, he’s had some bad experiences with other branded stuff
He can mix it with protein powder, shake it up, and shoot it down
But you has to be careful, he’s had some bad experiences with other branded stuff
3 hours before the race he would shake liquid maltodextrin with protein powder, and add a little bit of olive oil as a health fat to help slow things down a little
These would start off dilute and get increasingly concentrated as the race went on The reason for this is that the body absorbs things more easily when it’s not tired He wanted to make sure he was front loading his carbon intake during the marathon because the body can process it a lot easier When you’re 40K into a marathon, you don’t feel like taking in carbs at all Often he would take a swig of a water bottle and spit it out; it tricks the body into thinking it’s getting carbs but it doesn’t get anything This would give a little jolt of energy with just 2K to go
The reason for this is that the body absorbs things more easily when it’s not tired
He wanted to make sure he was front loading his carbon intake during the marathon because the body can process it a lot easier
When you’re 40K into a marathon, you don’t feel like taking in carbs at all
Often he would take a swig of a water bottle and spit it out; it tricks the body into thinking it’s getting carbs but it doesn’t get anything
This would give a little jolt of energy with just 2K to go
He would time his caffeine intake to where he was taking it 75 minutes prior to the start of the race
Caffeine is really interesting; when it came on board he couldn’t imagine doing a race without it There was no going back People can have very different experiences with it though He’s learned from science that it increases one’s core temperature which is detrimental to endurance activities; but that hasn’t been his experience He is 100% faster with caffeine on board than without it
There was no going back
People can have very different experiences with it though
He’s learned from science that it increases one’s core temperature which is detrimental to endurance activities; but that hasn’t been his experience
He is 100% faster with caffeine on board than without it

Boosting performance with Tylenol and keeping core temperature down [59:00]

Peter asks if he ever experimented with Tylenol No, Ryan never did
Peter was talking to Lance Armstrong about it a couple weeks ago and this came up He never used Tylenol in the tour but it’s a pretty remarkable performance enhancing drug Perfectly legal It gives a 1-2% boost It’s not clear if this comes through temperature reduction of pain reduction Peter used it during time trials A time trial is basically an hour of threshold; it’s super painful Sometimes he felt like he even gained 3% from Tylenol Peter would take 1000 mg before a race He’s curious if other athletes have tried it
Ryan is not familiar with it but is definitely going to try it with his athletes now
Peter notes, Tylenol reduces pain in a way that is different from NSAIDs One needs to be careful with the dose because it’s a very liver toxic drug at high doses But in normal amounts, 1000 mg is incredibly safe
Ryan asks if there is any application to lifting If it keeps the core temperature down, it seems like that would be helpful Peter hasn’t seen any literature on lifting with Tylenol
Funny story, about 8 years ago Peter saw some papers that looked at how Viagra improved lifting So he tried it but couldn’t use Viagra because of the symptoms he was getting It’s a vasodilator ; his blood pressure isn’t high but is kind of low so he would get light-headed using it But research shows that 25-50 mg of Viagra boosts muscle endurance and performance You would probably see more benefit on your best 10 rep deadlift as opposed to a max deadlift
No, Ryan never did
He never used Tylenol in the tour but it’s a pretty remarkable performance enhancing drug
Perfectly legal
It gives a 1-2% boost It’s not clear if this comes through temperature reduction of pain reduction Peter used it during time trials A time trial is basically an hour of threshold; it’s super painful Sometimes he felt like he even gained 3% from Tylenol Peter would take 1000 mg before a race He’s curious if other athletes have tried it
It’s not clear if this comes through temperature reduction of pain reduction
Peter used it during time trials
A time trial is basically an hour of threshold; it’s super painful
Sometimes he felt like he even gained 3% from Tylenol
Peter would take 1000 mg before a race
He’s curious if other athletes have tried it
One needs to be careful with the dose because it’s a very liver toxic drug at high doses
But in normal amounts, 1000 mg is incredibly safe
If it keeps the core temperature down, it seems like that would be helpful
Peter hasn’t seen any literature on lifting with Tylenol
So he tried it but couldn’t use Viagra because of the symptoms he was getting It’s a vasodilator ; his blood pressure isn’t high but is kind of low so he would get light-headed using it
But research shows that 25-50 mg of Viagra boosts muscle endurance and performance You would probably see more benefit on your best 10 rep deadlift as opposed to a max deadlift
It’s a vasodilator ; his blood pressure isn’t high but is kind of low so he would get light-headed using it
You would probably see more benefit on your best 10 rep deadlift as opposed to a max deadlift

Keeping the core temperature cool can boost performance

Thinking of core temperature, Ryan asks if Peter has played at all with palm cooling No
Peter used to check his core temperature before and after long swims because he had the opposite problem Swimming in cold water, his temp would drop 4-5 degrees Sometimes he would actually swim with a rectal probe just to see He would start at 98 or 99 o F and would come out of the water at 93, 94 There would be a performance detriment with the core temperature went too low
Too much or too little temp is pretty bad
Ryan mentions Dr. Huberman , a Stanford neuroscientist who studies palm cooling There is some pretty remarkable research about this and its effects on strength training and endurance The best way to lower cort temp is through one’s face, the upper face where there is no hair The next best is through the hands and bottoms of the feet They developed this glove to dump heat It’s not icy cold, just cool One doesn’t want it too cold It doesn’t change vasodilation It dumps heat and brings the core temperature down
Ryan has been playing a little with holding a cold pack in his hands between lifts or putting his hands in cool water to dump his temp It’s the type of thing that makes sense to him
Thinking from a perspective of evolution, why can humans do these persistent hunts? They go and chase an animal down; the animal overheats The animal is not as good at dumping temperature whereas humans are better at regulating temperature
If one can keep their temperatures in an optimal range, in theory, it should increase their endurance
He loves exploring this stuff and trying new tactics like this
Peter has tried a cooling helmet The helmet had gel pack inserts that could be frozen in the freezer When he would ride his trainer wearing this cooling helmet, it definitely made a difference He couldn’t bring himself to use it in a race
He noticed something similar the first summer he lived in Austin It got much hotter in Austin than what he was used to in Southern California He never used a cooling device when driving a race car; he would just drive He’s in a closed-cockpit car with a fire suit on; so it’s not a formula car, there’s no wind The cars are hot; there’s no air conditioning; there’s all this engine heat coming through It gets really hot and he would just suffer through Many people invest in a cooling vest ; it’s a vest that runs ice water around one’s torso Finally Peter got one and it was a game changer
Ryan is interested in this because he plays around with a cooling vest too He has an archaic one that he freezes then it slowly gets back to temperature
Peter notes this would not be great for a runner because it would be too heavy; His is more of a shirt with little cables running up and down It has a box that runs cold water through the cables and in the car There’s a power unit; it runs out of the car It weights maybe 6 lbs He has wondered what the cost trade-off would be of wearing it on a bike; thinking about its weight and the performance gain one would have
In a car, it’s an enormous performance booster This is more important in closed cockpit cars In formula cars, it’s not as big a deal because there is so much air blowing in
Using the cooling vest made a difference in how tired he felt after the race It was the difference between feeling like one was going to die and feeling tired but okay
No
Swimming in cold water, his temp would drop 4-5 degrees
Sometimes he would actually swim with a rectal probe just to see
He would start at 98 or 99 o F and would come out of the water at 93, 94
There would be a performance detriment with the core temperature went too low
There is some pretty remarkable research about this and its effects on strength training and endurance
The best way to lower cort temp is through one’s face, the upper face where there is no hair The next best is through the hands and bottoms of the feet
They developed this glove to dump heat It’s not icy cold, just cool One doesn’t want it too cold It doesn’t change vasodilation It dumps heat and brings the core temperature down
The next best is through the hands and bottoms of the feet
It’s not icy cold, just cool
One doesn’t want it too cold
It doesn’t change vasodilation
It dumps heat and brings the core temperature down
It’s the type of thing that makes sense to him
They go and chase an animal down; the animal overheats
The animal is not as good at dumping temperature whereas humans are better at regulating temperature
The helmet had gel pack inserts that could be frozen in the freezer
When he would ride his trainer wearing this cooling helmet, it definitely made a difference
He couldn’t bring himself to use it in a race
It got much hotter in Austin than what he was used to in Southern California
He never used a cooling device when driving a race car; he would just drive
He’s in a closed-cockpit car with a fire suit on; so it’s not a formula car, there’s no wind
The cars are hot; there’s no air conditioning; there’s all this engine heat coming through
It gets really hot and he would just suffer through
Many people invest in a cooling vest ; it’s a vest that runs ice water around one’s torso Finally Peter got one and it was a game changer
Finally Peter got one and it was a game changer
He has an archaic one that he freezes then it slowly gets back to temperature
His is more of a shirt with little cables running up and down
It has a box that runs cold water through the cables and in the car
There’s a power unit; it runs out of the car
It weights maybe 6 lbs
He has wondered what the cost trade-off would be of wearing it on a bike; thinking about its weight and the performance gain one would have
This is more important in closed cockpit cars In formula cars, it’s not as big a deal because there is so much air blowing in
In formula cars, it’s not as big a deal because there is so much air blowing in
It was the difference between feeling like one was going to die and feeling tired but okay

How cooling could be incorporated into running

Peter can see how cooling could be used in strength training but wonders how it could be incorporated into a marathon
Ryan thinks cooling would be useful before a race when the athlete is warming-up, doing drills and strides This would help get the core temperature back down by dumping some heat
In interval training, cooling could be done between sets He’ll use a bucket of cold water at the track for the athletes to put their hands in inbetween sets It feels like it makes a big difference
He has used those instant cold packs; break them open and hold them for about 2 minutes It’s kind of a hindrance, but it’s worth it to get the performance benefit
He hasn’t tried the gloves they have at Stanford but he’s curious about them He knows they use it on the football team and a lot of the athletic programs But one can’t stop their run in the middle of a race and put their hands in some cold glove; but who knows what the application could be for running
For the bike, it would be cool if they could make the handlebars colder Peter agrees, this would be a great idea if they could make it really light Most bikes are coming in below the UCI limit of 14.9 lbs So most cyclist actually add weight to their bikes to get them up to the legal weight
This would help get the core temperature back down by dumping some heat
He’ll use a bucket of cold water at the track for the athletes to put their hands in inbetween sets It feels like it makes a big difference
It feels like it makes a big difference
It’s kind of a hindrance, but it’s worth it to get the performance benefit
He knows they use it on the football team and a lot of the athletic programs
But one can’t stop their run in the middle of a race and put their hands in some cold glove; but who knows what the application could be for running
Peter agrees, this would be a great idea if they could make it really light Most bikes are coming in below the UCI limit of 14.9 lbs So most cyclist actually add weight to their bikes to get them up to the legal weight
Most bikes are coming in below the UCI limit of 14.9 lbs
So most cyclist actually add weight to their bikes to get them up to the legal weight

Ryan’s early struggles and later success at Stanford [1:09:45]

Peter asks about Ryan’s time at Stanford
He assumes he was recruited heavily from every top running powerhouse program Ryan agrees, this was cool
Growing up, he was in the middle of 5 kids His dad was a teacher His mom was a stay at home mom They were always pinching their pennies He thought running might take him to a good college; he was going to have to earn his way there It was cool to be recruited all of the the place At the time he felt that Stanford was definitely not one of the places he was going to, because he wasn’t heavily focused on academics in high school He didn’t want to be super challenged both academically and athletically
Ryan agrees, this was cool
His dad was a teacher
His mom was a stay at home mom
They were always pinching their pennies
He thought running might take him to a good college; he was going to have to earn his way there
It was cool to be recruited all of the the place
At the time he felt that Stanford was definitely not one of the places he was going to, because he wasn’t heavily focused on academics in high school He didn’t want to be super challenged both academically and athletically
He didn’t want to be super challenged both academically and athletically

Achievements at Stanford

His time at Stanford was 3 years of really big struggle
He hit one cross country season really well He was part of a NCAA winning team, 2 years there in cross-country
In his 4th year at Stanford, things just clicked
This is what he loves about running and fitness in general Things can be going wrong for so long yet when they start to click, it’s such a good feeling to push through and get to the point where it feels easy
That’s how he felt during his 4th year He and his teammate Ian Dobson went 1, 2 in track
At that point he was having a very lackluster career at Stanford He had never been to NCAA championships in track; but in running, this doesn’t matter It’s just the runner and the clock and the other guys there
Now everything was clicking and he had the opportunity to run professionally
He and his wife Sara were planning to come back to Stanford for a 5th year But he had seen other teammates have a really good 4th year and no do well their 5th year and end up with no contract
Peter asked, “ Did you Redshirt your first year ?”
He was part of a NCAA winning team, 2 years there in cross-country
Things can be going wrong for so long yet when they start to click, it’s such a good feeling to push through and get to the point where it feels easy
He and his teammate Ian Dobson went 1, 2 in track
He had never been to NCAA championships in track; but in running, this doesn’t matter It’s just the runner and the clock and the other guys there
It’s just the runner and the clock and the other guys there
But he had seen other teammates have a really good 4th year and no do well their 5th year and end up with no contract

“ I redshirted my freshman year. I was on the struggle-bus. I was hurt, I was injured, I was sick, I’d get poison oak every winter. It was the perfect combination of everything going wrong .” – Ryan Hall

Ryan’s struggle with depression

Ryan was struggling academically
He struggled with depression and actually left Stanford for a quarter in his sophomore year He was going to go back to the last place where everything was clicking for him, where everything was working— he was going back home He was sick of the struggle But back at home he became even more depressed He realized he was supposed to be back at Stanford
So he went back to Stanford and gradually things started to get better
He had his struggles at Stanford, but it was a beautiful place to go to school He loved the people; he loved the environment He still likes to go back and visit
It was a struggle athletically and academically until his 4th year Then the doors came open to run professionally and he left the farm after that
He was going to go back to the last place where everything was clicking for him, where everything was working— he was going back home
He was sick of the struggle
But back at home he became even more depressed
He realized he was supposed to be back at Stanford
He loved the people; he loved the environment
He still likes to go back and visit
Then the doors came open to run professionally and he left the farm after that

Running a mile in under 4 minutes [1:13:00]

Peter asked what changed, what clicked?
In highschool, was Ryan running a 4:02 mile?
Peter knows Ryan wanted to break that 4 minute barrier This is pretty rare to run a mile in under 4 minutes in high school Only a few have done this, including Jim Ryun and Alan Webb
When Ryan was in high school, there were only 4 guys who had run a mile in under 4 minutes Alan and he did it in the same year He was good friends with Alan He remembers watching him run 3:53 and he was blown away; it was out of this world
Alan went to Michigan He struggled his sophomore year They have a lot of parallels, even the year they both hit it big— 2007 Alan set the American record in the mile [3:46.91] Ryan set the American record in the half [marathon, 59:43] They were roommates in Europe in 2006; they were racing and both struggling for various reasons They both had very high highs and very low lows They are similar, but Alan is definitely one of the most talented runners Ryan has ever seen
Alan has such a good work ethic; he would do hurdle drills, pliers, and stuff for hours Ryan noted his intense focus was great when it was clicking
If the Olympics would’ve been that year, he’d been a gold medalist without a doubt
This is pretty rare to run a mile in under 4 minutes in high school
Only a few have done this, including Jim Ryun and Alan Webb
Alan and he did it in the same year
He was good friends with Alan
He remembers watching him run 3:53 and he was blown away; it was out of this world
He struggled his sophomore year
They have a lot of parallels, even the year they both hit it big— 2007
Alan set the American record in the mile [3:46.91]
Ryan set the American record in the half [marathon, 59:43]
They were roommates in Europe in 2006; they were racing and both struggling for various reasons
They both had very high highs and very low lows
They are similar, but Alan is definitely one of the most talented runners Ryan has ever seen
Ryan noted his intense focus was great when it was clicking

Keys to overcoming difficulty: faith, mindset, and being a better teammate [1:15:45]

Reflecting on training

Peter asked what changed in Ryan’s senior year
Ryan has always been very interested in the nuts and bolts of training It’s important to understand how he’s doing what he’s doing as an athlete What’s what’s going on in his heart, in his head— this is more important that what he’s actually doing
He has a tendency to try to prove himself to himself in training He wants to know if he’s fit and ready to go Sometimes he’s going harder in training than racing But this isn’t the best way for his body to absorb the work
It’s important to understand how he’s doing what he’s doing as an athlete
What’s what’s going on in his heart, in his head— this is more important that what he’s actually doing
He wants to know if he’s fit and ready to go
Sometimes he’s going harder in training than racing
But this isn’t the best way for his body to absorb the work

“ I need to be making deposits not making withdrawals when I’m training ” – Ryan Hall

He’s in a much better place if he going into these workouts confident in who he is, knowing the purpose of the workout

How his mindset led to depression

In his senior year, his identity was all wrapped up in his performances
This is why he struggled with depression He would look in the mirror in the morning, he was struggling with running, he was hurt He was frustrated with how things were going; he wasn’t getting better
He would look in the mirror in the morning, he was struggling with running, he was hurt
He was frustrated with how things were going; he wasn’t getting better

“ I just saw myself as a failure and it was very difficult to have that happen every single morning, get up, look in the mirror failure ” – Ryan Hall

Focusing on his faith helped him change his mindset

Faith had always been a huge part of his life; when he went back home he started to realize that he needed to see himself as God sees him How God sees him has nothing to do with his performance Compare this to how a parent thinks about their kids, it doesn’t matter how good they are in a certain sport; a parent loves their kids It’s unconditional love
He wondered if he could love himself that same way
Oftentimes people are able to love others and treat others better than they treat themself
He started to realize that God loves him regardless of how he performs
He decided he was going to choose on a daily basis This is something he had to cultivate, even to this day He decided to choose to love himself regardless of how he was performing What makes him special has nothing to do with how fast he is or how much weight he can lift As that began to sink in, it took the pressure off He stopped hating himself He discovered he could love himself whether he had a great workout or a bad workout; he became cool with who he was That just took the weight off It made him fearless too
The Africans have this mentality too They go with the lead group If they blows up, they don’t take it personally; they get up and go again next time They don’t take their failures personally
Americans, like Ryan, take it super personally To fail at a workout is to fail personally
For Africans, to fail is part of the process Who cares? Just go again
As Ryan’s approach to his workouts changed, thing started to click a lot better
Another big thing he learned is that he didn’t have to beat his work or his teammates in training anymore Instead, he could just work with them He didn’t have to try to drop them, even if he could He became secure in who he was
This was a huge shift but results didn’t come all of a sudden This took years and years to turn into something
How God sees him has nothing to do with his performance
Compare this to how a parent thinks about their kids, it doesn’t matter how good they are in a certain sport; a parent loves their kids
It’s unconditional love
This is something he had to cultivate, even to this day
He decided to choose to love himself regardless of how he was performing
What makes him special has nothing to do with how fast he is or how much weight he can lift
As that began to sink in, it took the pressure off He stopped hating himself
He discovered he could love himself whether he had a great workout or a bad workout; he became cool with who he was That just took the weight off It made him fearless too
He stopped hating himself
That just took the weight off
It made him fearless too
They go with the lead group
If they blows up, they don’t take it personally; they get up and go again next time
They don’t take their failures personally
To fail at a workout is to fail personally
Who cares? Just go again
Instead, he could just work with them
He didn’t have to try to drop them, even if he could
He became secure in who he was
This took years and years to turn into something

“ That was really the most freeing, I think I’ve experienced in my career in terms of what’s going on internally that freed me up to enter into my full potential in running ” – Ryan Hall

Improving communication helped Ryan be a better teammate

Peter remarks that despite being a very friendly person, coming to every workout in the mode of hammer time probably alienated a lot of teammates
Ryan agrees 100%
Ryan would go home over the summer where one is supposed to be chill and just building base training He would train his brains out and would come back blasting everyone all the time
He remembers talking to one of his good friends and teammates in Dobson; his friend remarked that the team used to not be a fan of Ryan Because Ryan would always come back in super good shape and was always taking it to them
This changed for Ryan as he was able to communicate and work with the team better
It’s different to tell the guys that he’s feeling really good and is going to pick up the pace than to just take off without saying anything
In a group environment, it’s crazy how just that little communication can really shift the dynamics of the group It makes everyone cool with what’s happening
He would train his brains out and would come back blasting everyone all the time
Because Ryan would always come back in super good shape and was always taking it to them
It makes everyone cool with what’s happening

Ryan’s professional running career and his discovery of his gift for marathon distances [1:22:00]

Ryan turned pro in 2005; his lead sponsor was ASICS
Peter asks if he thought then that his sweet spot would be in the half marathon to marathon world, or if he was thinking he was going to be a 5K, 10K guy
Ryan never thought he would run a marathon

His focus on speed and the 5K

Ryan grew up loving the movie Prefontaine and that scene where the lead character says, “ no one’s going to tell me I’m not fast enough ”
But Ryan wasn’t fast enough; he wanted to be a miler
He ran 50 for 400 in high school
But only having that kind of speed limited his upper end potentia In the 5,000 meters guys are closing in 52 So if his top end speed is 50, he’s going to have a hard time closing in 52
His best 5K was 13:16 To put this in perspective, the American record for the 5K is around 12:50 At the time, his 5K was one of the faster times
But after spending a year in college focusing on his 5K he didn’t improve
The Beijing Olympics were on the horizon; the trials were coming up the following year
He needed to figure out his vision for running; he always wanted to run with the best guys in the world He tried to figure out what event he would be most competitive at He was 23 at the time All the sudden he had an openness to longer distances where as before he was very closed minded and focused on running a world class mile
In the 5,000 meters guys are closing in 52
So if his top end speed is 50, he’s going to have a hard time closing in 52
To put this in perspective, the American record for the 5K is around 12:50
At the time, his 5K was one of the faster times
He tried to figure out what event he would be most competitive at
He was 23 at the time
All the sudden he had an openness to longer distances where as before he was very closed minded and focused on running a world class mile

The path to marathon running

He had run zero half marathons before Houstin in 2007; this was his first He had run a couple of 20Ks, which is just 1K less than a half marathon
He got worked on the track that first year and he’ll never forget He was in London racing against the world record holder ( Bekele at the time) for the 5,000 meters He was coming down the back stretch of the track and was watching on the jumbotron Bekele and Craig Mottram finish in this kicking dual And he was nowhere even close to them This was one of those moments where he realized, “ this isn’t my best event ” A moment of realization So then that openness allowed him to start experimenting with longer stuff
In the summer he started training for longer distance
He did the World 20K Championships then the US National 20K Championships It was all clicking pretty well
In the winter he got into marathon training He was planning to debut in the Los Angeles Marathon
He had run a couple of 20Ks, which is just 1K less than a half marathon
He was in London racing against the world record holder ( Bekele at the time) for the 5,000 meters
He was coming down the back stretch of the track and was watching on the jumbotron Bekele and Craig Mottram finish in this kicking dual
And he was nowhere even close to them
This was one of those moments where he realized, “ this isn’t my best event ” A moment of realization So then that openness allowed him to start experimenting with longer stuff
A moment of realization
So then that openness allowed him to start experimenting with longer stuff
It was all clicking pretty well
He was planning to debut in the Los Angeles Marathon

The 2007 half marathon in Houston

Peter asks him to go back to his first half marathon in Houston “ because obviously the result of that race is so out of this world that it’s easy to miss that little detai l” This race was in January of 2007 At the time the American record for a half marathon is 1 hour and 55 seconds Peter asks what he was thinking at the starting line; what were his expectations
This was in the days before GPS watches so he had written down on his hands 3 different categories of times he was going for If he was having an A day, he would finish just under the American record pace (60:55) If he was having a B day, he would finish in 61:30 If he was having a C day, he would finish in 62 flat
His training was going phenomenally well He was blowing his own mind
This race was in January of 2007
At the time the American record for a half marathon is 1 hour and 55 seconds
Peter asks what he was thinking at the starting line; what were his expectations
If he was having an A day, he would finish just under the American record pace (60:55)
If he was having a B day, he would finish in 61:30
If he was having a C day, he would finish in 62 flat
He was blowing his own mind

“ About that day, I described Houston as being heaven and hell at the same time ” – Ryan Hall

That day was heaven because he was floating the whole time; it felt easy the entire way It was the coolest bodily sensation he has ever experienced; it was unreal
It was also hell and haunted him because he could never get back to that feeling
It was his best half marathon by far; he never broke 61 again
He finished the half marathon at 59:43 He obliterated the American record by over a minute
He remembers looking at his Timex watch and what’s happening in that first mile He pictured himself back on Green Church Road in Mammoth where he trained and thought— if he was running a 13 mile threshold, could he maintain this effort that he’s currently at? The answer was yes He ran the first mile in 5:35 It felt too easy; he wasn’t supposed to be running that fast He knows he can hold that effort to the finish The next mile was 4:32, then 4:28 He was starting to scare himself a little bit and thought, “o kay let’s not screw this thing up; obviously you’re going to have a heck of a day today ” No one else was around
It was the coolest bodily sensation he has ever experienced; it was unreal
He obliterated the American record by over a minute
He pictured himself back on Green Church Road in Mammoth where he trained and thought— if he was running a 13 mile threshold, could he maintain this effort that he’s currently at? The answer was yes
He ran the first mile in 5:35
It felt too easy; he wasn’t supposed to be running that fast
He knows he can hold that effort to the finish
The next mile was 4:32, then 4:28
He was starting to scare himself a little bit and thought, “o kay let’s not screw this thing up; obviously you’re going to have a heck of a day today ”
No one else was around
The answer was yes

“ From the very first mile it was just me and the roads ” – Ryan Hall

He was so mentally clicked in; all was as it was supposed to be
It was the most magical sensation he’d ever had
So he just kept pushing and waiting for it to get hard… and it never did
He had 1 issue around mile 9 where his stomach got a little bit turny In a half marathon he’s not taking in any fluids if the weather is cool It was a nice cool, perfect day day to run in Houston, a flat course But this feeling passed a couple minutes later
Literally it was easy the entire way He’s curious, if he had a pacemaker and if it was a full marathon, he wonders what he could have run that day He was in really good shape
Looking back on it, this is why he is such a big proponent of speed now He had spent 10 years (from 13-23) working on speed, working on his 5K Then all the sudden, he piled on marathon training and was hitting longer thresholds and higher volume This is why he emphasizes 5K speed with the athletes he coaches
In a half marathon he’s not taking in any fluids if the weather is cool
It was a nice cool, perfect day day to run in Houston, a flat course
But this feeling passed a couple minutes later
He’s curious, if he had a pacemaker and if it was a full marathon, he wonders what he could have run that day
He was in really good shape
He had spent 10 years (from 13-23) working on speed, working on his 5K
Then all the sudden, he piled on marathon training and was hitting longer thresholds and higher volume
This is why he emphasizes 5K speed with the athletes he coaches

“ The further away I got from that 5K fitness, the harder the half felt, the harder the marathon felt ” – Ryan Hall

Peter asked if Ryan thought he could have gone harder after he crossed the finish line
Ryan replied, “ That’s interesting because I’m talking about how easy it felt yet I wasn’t leaving anything in the tank necessarily ”
He got a huge hit of adrenaline when he crossed the finish line
Breaking 60 was a lifetime goal and to do it on his first half marathon; it was crazy
Staring at the people on his team has hugely, emotionally empowering for him
He’ll never forget the finish line The lead car zipped up the road a bit and dropped off his parents and wife, Sara 200 meters before the finish line They were running to get to the finish line before him He’s coming down the final stretch and sees his mom just booking it, trying to make it to the finish line before he got there He actually passed her If you look at some of the pictures, she’s in the back sprinting behind him He’ll never forget coming across the finish line, giving his parents a big hug, giving his wife a big hug, his coach He had the sensation of, “ We did this ” It wasn’t special because he felt like he had done something incredible Instead, it was “ We all did this thing together; and it was just an amazing lifetime moment that I’ll never forget ”
The lead car zipped up the road a bit and dropped off his parents and wife, Sara 200 meters before the finish line
They were running to get to the finish line before him
He’s coming down the final stretch and sees his mom just booking it, trying to make it to the finish line before he got there He actually passed her If you look at some of the pictures, she’s in the back sprinting behind him
He’ll never forget coming across the finish line, giving his parents a big hug, giving his wife a big hug, his coach
He had the sensation of, “ We did this ”
It wasn’t special because he felt like he had done something incredible
Instead, it was “ We all did this thing together; and it was just an amazing lifetime moment that I’ll never forget ”
He actually passed her
If you look at some of the pictures, she’s in the back sprinting behind him

Reflections after breaking the American half marathon record, and challenges faced by retired athletes [1:32:45]

Peter asks if his life as a professional runner changed in that moment
It was huge; he went from a guy who was decent on the track in NCAA champs to the top 10, all-time performers for a half marathon
All of the sudden he realized he had a chance of medaling in Beijing
There was the excitement of, “ I found it ” after struggling for so long with the shorter distance stuff He had the feeling of, “ This is what I was created to do ” Everyone searches for their giftedness and purpose; the moment of finding it is incredible More than anything, it was a cool moment of realizing he was in the club with the best guys in the world
He had the feeling of, “ This is what I was created to do ”
Everyone searches for their giftedness and purpose; the moment of finding it is incredible
More than anything, it was a cool moment of realizing he was in the club with the best guys in the world

“ After that, I never showed up in another race thinking I couldn’t win or not having high expectations for the race ” – Ryan Hall

Peter notes that Ryan realized his gift and acknowledged that it is something very fleeting There’s a narrow window when one gets to be really good at this; for a runner it’s technically one day He might be very good for a decade but would look back at this as the best he could ever do
Houston in 2007 was his best half marathon
4 years later was his best marathon (2:04:58 in the 2011 Boston Marathon )
There’s a narrow window when one gets to be really good at this; for a runner it’s technically one day
He might be very good for a decade but would look back at this as the best he could ever do

Figure 2. Ryan Hall’s Best times.

Is being past one’s prime, a retired athlete, a difficult process? Absolutely
Ryan talks with his wife about this Sara is turning 39 in April and she’s running the best stuff she’s ever run Women age better than men in a lot of ways
Absolutely
Sara is turning 39 in April and she’s running the best stuff she’s ever run
Women age better than men in a lot of ways

Savoring the moment

What was impactful for him at the end of his career was a moment when he was in an airplane He was reflecting on everything trying to get clarity about what was going on He had just been through 4 years of massive struggle He felt like having a little prayer session with God and sensing a reminder that this is not meant to last forever
He was reflecting on everything trying to get clarity about what was going on
He had just been through 4 years of massive struggle
He felt like having a little prayer session with God and sensing a reminder that this is not meant to last forever

“ When you’re in it, you feel like it is going to last forever and it is supposed to last forever, but [it doesn’t and] that’s actually what makes life so beautiful ” – Ryan Hall

So having that moment realization that it’s okay for it to not last forever That was his day He savored it for everything it is worth. Right
This is what he tells his athletes— savor every second of it
But life is going to change
He tells them, “ You’re going to enter into new seasons and life is beautiful every single day, all around you .”
Have this perspective of, “ Yes, this is very important. This is what we’re going after. But true beauty is around us all the time. If we have the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it. ”
Ryan notes that removing one’s self from performance can be super helpful in some ways When one is in the sport or in transition out of the sport Realizing the performance is “ something that is adding to my life. It is not my life .” Realizing he can have this day, this beautiful experience of going for a walk outside, looking at the trees, sun, and stars Feeling gratitude for life by simply entering nature and being fully present in it
His perspective has changed For a long time he was all wrapped up in his performance It’s easy to be that way He enjoys performances and loves seeing growth and going after big goals He still loves seeing growth and thinks this is something that helps people transition out of this sport Many people talk about having a sense of identity loss when they stop their sport
He had to figure out how to stay true to who he is Running was just an expression of who he is; it was like his painting Now he has to find another mechanism to express who he is
He has moved on to lifting and crazy challenges He loves physical challenge He loves seeing growth He expresses himself now through lifting And when that comes to an end at some point, he will find another way to express it
He thinks what humans want is having that experience When one loses the ability to express themself, things can get dark pretty quick
That was his day
He savored it for everything it is worth. Right
When one is in the sport or in transition out of the sport
Realizing the performance is “ something that is adding to my life. It is not my life .”
Realizing he can have this day, this beautiful experience of going for a walk outside, looking at the trees, sun, and stars Feeling gratitude for life by simply entering nature and being fully present in it
Feeling gratitude for life by simply entering nature and being fully present in it
For a long time he was all wrapped up in his performance It’s easy to be that way He enjoys performances and loves seeing growth and going after big goals
He still loves seeing growth and thinks this is something that helps people transition out of this sport Many people talk about having a sense of identity loss when they stop their sport
It’s easy to be that way
He enjoys performances and loves seeing growth and going after big goals
Many people talk about having a sense of identity loss when they stop their sport
Running was just an expression of who he is; it was like his painting
Now he has to find another mechanism to express who he is
He loves physical challenge
He loves seeing growth
He expresses himself now through lifting
And when that comes to an end at some point, he will find another way to express it
When one loses the ability to express themself, things can get dark pretty quick

“ I think as long as we’re continually finding ways to be ourself and to express ourself, we’re going to be happy individuals ” – Ryan Hall

Ryan’s marathon training regimen at the Mammoth Track Club in 2010 [1:39:45]

Why Ryan left the Mammoth Track Club

Peter notes Ryan’s experience after breaking the half marathon record parallels what happened in 2011
Ryan goes to Beijing in ‘08 His trajectory was unbelievable, he went from 60th to 10th place Though he went into this race with the expectation of the running world to earn a medal, 10th place is still impressive
Peter asked how Ryan felt going into the Boston Marathon in 2011
Prior to this Ryan had a big transition
He was training up in Mammoth; in 2010 he decided to leave the Mammoth Track Club
His faith played a big part in this decision He’s always been a super spiritual person; he loves that spiritual dimension He was desperate to experience God in some way
He decided to leave the Mammoth Track Club and essentially have God as his coach But really that just looked like spending a lot of time in prayer trying to connect with God This is where he got this revelation, “ It’s not about what I do. It’s about how I do what I do. ”
He went through this season experimenting with some new styles of training that he had never done before New stimulus is always helpful for the body He had always been in the same routine, doing the same structure training
His trajectory was unbelievable, he went from 60th to 10th place
Though he went into this race with the expectation of the running world to earn a medal, 10th place is still impressive
He’s always been a super spiritual person; he loves that spiritual dimension
He was desperate to experience God in some way
But really that just looked like spending a lot of time in prayer trying to connect with God
This is where he got this revelation, “ It’s not about what I do. It’s about how I do what I do. ”
New stimulus is always helpful for the body
He had always been in the same routine, doing the same structure training

Structure of workouts with the Mammoth Track Club in 2010

Peter asks about the structure of his workouts in the 2010 Mammoth days
On a typical week, Ryan would do intervals on Tuesday This was working on that 5K-specific speed, things like 6 by mile, 10 by K, 800 meter repeats, 400 meter repeats
Now he has gravitated more toward shorter distance repeats— 400s, 200s, things like that He thinks this is more important for marathoners because one wants a lot of differential between how fast those Tuesday intervals are compared to the Thursday/Friday threshold
Peter asks, before Ryan left the Mammoth Track Club, were his 1-mile or 1K repeats a set of 10 by a km or 6 by a mile? What was the warm up What was the first thing he would do when he arrived at the track?
First, he would do an easy 20-minute jog around This was at an 8 minute mile pace; he would be conversational the whole time, not breathing hard
Then come back and do some dynamic flexibility or maybe some static stuff There was not a lot of static stretching Stretching has not been a huge part of his running at all He wants some tension in his legs The leg muscles are springs; a tightly wound spring is going to respond to the ground quicker compared to a slinky that’s super slow He wants a full range of motion so he would do lots of mobility work to get that full range but still keep some tension in the legs So he would spend 5-10 minutes on drills and strides The strides are maybe 6x 100 meters This is all on his Run Free Training YouTube channel
Then he would change into his racing shoes and go straight into the workout
Peter asks, if he’s doing the 6 by a mile, how fast would he run that mile? If his half marathon pace was 4:32 and his marathon pace was 4:42 to 4:45, how much faster does need to run that mile?
If he was doing it at altitude (7,000 feet), he would typically run around a 4:30 pace At sea level, this is equivalent to 4:20 or so
So the 6 by a mile and the Ks, that’s more of a 10K-specific workout., but he’d gravitate more towards 5K specific stuff, a little bit quicker
He would keep the rest fairly short; within the mile he would rest 90 seconds to 2 minutes At altitude, he would rest a little bit more But as you get fit you recover super fast The intensity was not like doing max sprints; that requires a 10 minute break between springs When sprinting in a 10K range, ideally you are running at an effort you can hold for 10K and you’re stopping at a mile; you’re not killing it
Peter asks if he is walking or standing still during this recovery Sometimes he’s doing a slow walk-jog, it depends
He likes doing in and out intervals too That was one of Prefontaine’s workouts, where he would do 200 meters fast, 200 meters moderate So the moderate part would be at 8-minute pace or even faster, 7-minute pace Then for the fast part, the goal is a 5K pace or slightly slower than a mile pace There are a lot of different variations that they would take on those workouts
The cool-down would be 20 minutes
They would spend the rest of the day doing some mobility work, eating, ice bathing The science on the ice bath has changed quite a bit They would go from these workouts and long runs straight to the creek, into cold water Now the science is showing the benefits of having the body to respond to the inflammation first Now they don’t do a ton of ice baths But there are a whole bunch of other good, positive effects of ice bathing, like dopamine going up tenfold
He would come back in the afternoon for a 30-35 minute easy run then go straight to the weight room and do leg lifts
A mistake he sees a lot of runners make is to do all their leg stressors on the same day No one feels like doing weights after a hard run Do the hard run first Ideally, do the hard run in the morning and come back in the afternoon to do the weights You can do weights right after a hard run but they probably won’t get as much out of it because you’re bringing fatigue into the lifting It feels better to space it out a little bit more
After a day like this, he would head home to eat and go to bed early
This was working on that 5K-specific speed, things like 6 by mile, 10 by K, 800 meter repeats, 400 meter repeats
He thinks this is more important for marathoners because one wants a lot of differential between how fast those Tuesday intervals are compared to the Thursday/Friday threshold
What was the warm up
What was the first thing he would do when he arrived at the track?
This was at an 8 minute mile pace; he would be conversational the whole time, not breathing hard
There was not a lot of static stretching
Stretching has not been a huge part of his running at all
He wants some tension in his legs The leg muscles are springs; a tightly wound spring is going to respond to the ground quicker compared to a slinky that’s super slow
He wants a full range of motion so he would do lots of mobility work to get that full range but still keep some tension in the legs
So he would spend 5-10 minutes on drills and strides The strides are maybe 6x 100 meters This is all on his Run Free Training YouTube channel
The leg muscles are springs; a tightly wound spring is going to respond to the ground quicker compared to a slinky that’s super slow
The strides are maybe 6x 100 meters
This is all on his Run Free Training YouTube channel
If his half marathon pace was 4:32 and his marathon pace was 4:42 to 4:45, how much faster does need to run that mile?
At sea level, this is equivalent to 4:20 or so
At altitude, he would rest a little bit more
But as you get fit you recover super fast
The intensity was not like doing max sprints; that requires a 10 minute break between springs
When sprinting in a 10K range, ideally you are running at an effort you can hold for 10K and you’re stopping at a mile; you’re not killing it
Sometimes he’s doing a slow walk-jog, it depends
That was one of Prefontaine’s workouts, where he would do 200 meters fast, 200 meters moderate
So the moderate part would be at 8-minute pace or even faster, 7-minute pace
Then for the fast part, the goal is a 5K pace or slightly slower than a mile pace
There are a lot of different variations that they would take on those workouts
The science on the ice bath has changed quite a bit
They would go from these workouts and long runs straight to the creek, into cold water
Now the science is showing the benefits of having the body to respond to the inflammation first
Now they don’t do a ton of ice baths
But there are a whole bunch of other good, positive effects of ice bathing, like dopamine going up tenfold
No one feels like doing weights after a hard run Do the hard run first
Ideally, do the hard run in the morning and come back in the afternoon to do the weights
You can do weights right after a hard run but they probably won’t get as much out of it because you’re bringing fatigue into the lifting It feels better to space it out a little bit more
Do the hard run first
It feels better to space it out a little bit more

The need for sleep

“ I always describe my life as more of a professional sleeper than a professional runner ” – Ryan Hall

He felt like he was sleeping all the time He would book every day from 1-3 pm for a nap He would probably sleep 9-10 hours every night
Ryan notes that, “ Pro runners are very lazy people from day to day. We don’t go for walks or hikes or do anything. It’s just train, eat, sleep, stay off your feet. And you’re always aware of that energy expenditure. You’re trying to save as much as you can for your training .”
Peter remembers in high school, growing up in Canada, they had a lot of amazing Jamaican runners, sprinters They used to tease each other saying, “ Look, we are the laziest people you will ever meet. And if you want to make us run faster, just put a couch at the finish line. Whoever can get to the finish line first gets to lay on that couch ” But it was hard work; these were super intense workouts
He would book every day from 1-3 pm for a nap
He would probably sleep 9-10 hours every night
They used to tease each other saying, “ Look, we are the laziest people you will ever meet. And if you want to make us run faster, just put a couch at the finish line. Whoever can get to the finish line first gets to lay on that couch ”
But it was hard work; these were super intense workouts

Optimal body weight for competition and the pros and cons of going below your natural weight [1:48:45]

Intense training is hard on the body

Peter notes that cyclists have to work hard and deliberately restrict calories Often they would show up to huge stage races like the Tour de France, the Giro, the Alta, calorie depleted They are trying to be as light as possible Everything comes down to this 1 metric— watts per kilo “ If you lined up all the cyclists at the beginning of the Tour de France, and you could know what everybody’s threshold was in watts per kilo, that would predict the order they would finish, barring a strategic mishap or an injury or an accident ”
Ryan agrees, his lifestyle and training was very specific
Training at that level wasn’t the most healthy lifestyle; it wasn’t optimal for his health His testosterone level was clinically low every time he tested it— in the 100’s, 150 Peter notes, this is the level normal for women
Ryan wonders how one can run so fast with such low testosterone
Peter remembers his testosterone was in the 220s when he finished residency, and this was low due to sleep deprivation etc But in the 100s is staggering low
Ryans testosterone level would come up after a 2-week break
Often they would show up to huge stage races like the Tour de France, the Giro, the Alta, calorie depleted They are trying to be as light as possible Everything comes down to this 1 metric— watts per kilo
“ If you lined up all the cyclists at the beginning of the Tour de France, and you could know what everybody’s threshold was in watts per kilo, that would predict the order they would finish, barring a strategic mishap or an injury or an accident ”
They are trying to be as light as possible
Everything comes down to this 1 metric— watts per kilo
His testosterone level was clinically low every time he tested it— in the 100’s, 150
Peter notes, this is the level normal for women
But in the 100s is staggering low

The pros and cons of low body weight

Thinking of weight, Ryan is 5’ 10” and his weight got down as low as 127 lbs He noticed his running got worse if he was less than 137 lbs
Peter compares this to cycling and talking to Lance Armstrong Lance’s race weight was 160-165 lbs; he’s 5’ 9-10” That’s a lot of weight for a guy who is such a good climber Now the GC contender probably weights 140 lbs He talked with Lance in this podcast: #178 – Lance Armstrong: The rise, fall, and growth of a cycling legend
Ryan would take a 2-week break where he wouldn’t run at all It was like a donut-eating competition for 2 weeks straight He would literally put on over 10 lbs in that 2-week period It wasn’t good for him emotionally or mentally, but it worked every single time for his build up His problem was he was getting so lean and so light He should have taken a more healthy approach to putting on weight, to being good to his body He should have shifted his macros around during that time off and gained weight in a healthy way He would get up to 150-ish, then it’d be a 6 month gradual reduction in body weight to 137, a couple weeks before his competition
Weight is highly specific for athletes His brothers, who aren’t athletic, walk around at 160-170 lbs So this was probably the natural range of his body weight When he was trying to get down to weights that were pretty far from his normal, it was unhealthy and that’s why he couldn’t stay in the 137’s, 140s for very long He would get rundown, his motivation would go down, his training would go to crap Take his wife Sara for example, she weighs around 110 lbs and if she wasn’t running, she’d probably be about the same weight Whereas for his, it’s not healthy to be down at 137
He noticed his running got worse if he was less than 137 lbs
Lance’s race weight was 160-165 lbs; he’s 5’ 9-10” That’s a lot of weight for a guy who is such a good climber Now the GC contender probably weights 140 lbs
He talked with Lance in this podcast: #178 – Lance Armstrong: The rise, fall, and growth of a cycling legend
That’s a lot of weight for a guy who is such a good climber
Now the GC contender probably weights 140 lbs
It was like a donut-eating competition for 2 weeks straight
He would literally put on over 10 lbs in that 2-week period
It wasn’t good for him emotionally or mentally, but it worked every single time for his build up
His problem was he was getting so lean and so light
He should have taken a more healthy approach to putting on weight, to being good to his body He should have shifted his macros around during that time off and gained weight in a healthy way He would get up to 150-ish, then it’d be a 6 month gradual reduction in body weight to 137, a couple weeks before his competition
He should have shifted his macros around during that time off and gained weight in a healthy way
He would get up to 150-ish, then it’d be a 6 month gradual reduction in body weight to 137, a couple weeks before his competition
His brothers, who aren’t athletic, walk around at 160-170 lbs So this was probably the natural range of his body weight
When he was trying to get down to weights that were pretty far from his normal, it was unhealthy and that’s why he couldn’t stay in the 137’s, 140s for very long He would get rundown, his motivation would go down, his training would go to crap
Take his wife Sara for example, she weighs around 110 lbs and if she wasn’t running, she’d probably be about the same weight
Whereas for his, it’s not healthy to be down at 137
So this was probably the natural range of his body weight
He would get rundown, his motivation would go down, his training would go to crap

Training volume, importance of mixing up the intensity level, and zone 2 and zone 5 for longevity [1:53:45]

Peter asks what his weekly mileage was
It was probably around 110 or so; this was pre-Garmin days He thought it was more, but when they got Garmins and started measuring a lot of the loops they were doing for easy runs, he realized the were a mile shorter than they thought
He thought it was more, but when they got Garmins and started measuring a lot of the loops they were doing for easy runs, he realized the were a mile shorter than they thought

“ I think this is the other mistake that a lot runners make is they’re just running the same all the time ” – Ryan Hall

There’s a place for running the same all the time but it’s not going to get you to the next level
To really see how good you can get, one needs to have super hard days and easy, super chill days Sometimes Ryan runs 12 miles in under a 5 minute pace The next day he will do an easy run— 8m, 30 pace
Having that variance between pacing is super important This allows one to stress the body, then rest the body (keep repeating the cycle) The body will adapt
Peter agrees; proper training is one thing he spends a lot of time talking about with patients Most people are training in this garbage zone where it’s too high in intensity to build a true aerobic foundation, and too low in intensity to truly stress the body glycolytically He describes it as zone 2 — he defines it by lactate metabolism Zone 2 is that all day pace; the lactate is below 2 mM Metabolically, it’s a pace that can be maintained all day; it probably can’t be maintained all day from a muscular and structural standpoint This is an easier pace than people are used to training Read more about how Peter prescribes exercise to his patients Then at the other end of the spectrum, there’s got to be this real push pace, a 4 by 4 pace 4 on and 4 off Most people aren’t used to that level of discomfort; there are 2 problems 1) Training in a physiologic no man’s land 2) There’s no variability in the intensity of the workouts
Sometimes Ryan runs 12 miles in under a 5 minute pace
The next day he will do an easy run— 8m, 30 pace
This allows one to stress the body, then rest the body (keep repeating the cycle)
The body will adapt
Most people are training in this garbage zone where it’s too high in intensity to build a true aerobic foundation, and too low in intensity to truly stress the body glycolytically
He describes it as zone 2 — he defines it by lactate metabolism Zone 2 is that all day pace; the lactate is below 2 mM Metabolically, it’s a pace that can be maintained all day; it probably can’t be maintained all day from a muscular and structural standpoint This is an easier pace than people are used to training Read more about how Peter prescribes exercise to his patients
Then at the other end of the spectrum, there’s got to be this real push pace, a 4 by 4 pace 4 on and 4 off Most people aren’t used to that level of discomfort; there are 2 problems 1) Training in a physiologic no man’s land 2) There’s no variability in the intensity of the workouts
Zone 2 is that all day pace; the lactate is below 2 mM
Metabolically, it’s a pace that can be maintained all day; it probably can’t be maintained all day from a muscular and structural standpoint
This is an easier pace than people are used to training
Read more about how Peter prescribes exercise to his patients
4 on and 4 off
Most people aren’t used to that level of discomfort; there are 2 problems
1) Training in a physiologic no man’s land
2) There’s no variability in the intensity of the workouts

“ I don’t think enough people understand both for performance and also longevity why you have to be at the more extremes of zone 2; zone 5 is where the progress comes ” – Peter Attia

Caffeine

Ryan notes that caffeine helps; he recommends only having caffeine before hard training days Then on the easy day it feels like death because you’re tired fromt he workout but also because of the lack of caffeine This forces you to take it really slow
Peter notes that some athletes really benefit from caffeine; he never felt that He can have coffee at any time of day; it has no bearing on his sleep So he gets no up from it, no down from it
There are different genes that are responsible for caffeine metabolism So people do vary in that Peter has always been incredibly envious of the people who are very sensitive to caffeine because it’s an awesome tool to have in your toolkit for just this purpose
Then on the easy day it feels like death because you’re tired fromt he workout but also because of the lack of caffeine This forces you to take it really slow
This forces you to take it really slow
He can have coffee at any time of day; it has no bearing on his sleep
So he gets no up from it, no down from it
So people do vary in that
Peter has always been incredibly envious of the people who are very sensitive to caffeine because it’s an awesome tool to have in your toolkit for just this purpose

The most impactful adjustments Ryan made to his training leading up the to 2011 Boston Marathon [1:58:15]

Peter asks how Ryans workouts changed when he became self-coached — What did he do leading up to the 2011 Boston Marathon ?

One big adjustment was to space things out
He ran intervals on Tuesday and then a long threshold on Friday, with 2 easy days before that
The threshold run is a constant pace, slightly higher than race pace but a shorter distance The pace approaches race pace as the distance gets longer He starts out with 5-6 miles and progresses to 15 miles straight, without stopping He would do 3 of these every week, for 12 weeks building up to the marathon He would be sure to get 3 of these long thresholds in They were his biggest indicator workouts He doesn’t fully taper for this workout and just bang the heck out of it and be like, “ Oh, I can run this for a marathon ” For this workout, your legs need to little bit of fatigued; you need to be in the middle of hard training
The pace approaches race pace as the distance gets longer
He starts out with 5-6 miles and progresses to 15 miles straight, without stopping
He would do 3 of these every week, for 12 weeks building up to the marathon
He would be sure to get 3 of these long thresholds in They were his biggest indicator workouts
He doesn’t fully taper for this workout and just bang the heck out of it and be like, “ Oh, I can run this for a marathon ”
For this workout, your legs need to little bit of fatigued; you need to be in the middle of hard training
They were his biggest indicator workouts

“ Generally speaking, whatever you can run for that 15 mile threshold, you can hold for a marathon, which is also mind blowing and hard for first time marathoners to believe ” – Ryan Hall

It’s hard to believe that one can go 11 more miles at this pace, but this is the magic of tapering the energy out on the course, carb loading, etc. That body finds a way to hold that through That 15 mile threshold of varying distances on Friday, then Sunday comes back with a long run
The long run occurs when there is already a little bit of fatigue in the legs That would be anywhere from 1 hour 45 to 2.5 hours But during this time, sometimes he would run over the marathon distance These are high quality efforts Oftentimes its at a medium pace, 6-minute mile for the first half and slower on the second half Just hitting that aerobic end a little bit harder towards the end of the run
A lot of it is just mentally learning how to turn your legs on when you feel really dead, 25 miles into a race Learning what cues to turn things on and to change gears here Because it doesn’t matter if you’re running a 6-minute pace or an 8-minute pace, when you get 20 miles into your run, you feel tired
That body finds a way to hold that through
That 15 mile threshold of varying distances on Friday, then Sunday comes back with a long run
That would be anywhere from 1 hour 45 to 2.5 hours
But during this time, sometimes he would run over the marathon distance
These are high quality efforts
Oftentimes its at a medium pace, 6-minute mile for the first half and slower on the second half Just hitting that aerobic end a little bit harder towards the end of the run
Just hitting that aerobic end a little bit harder towards the end of the run
Learning what cues to turn things on and to change gears here
Because it doesn’t matter if you’re running a 6-minute pace or an 8-minute pace, when you get 20 miles into your run, you feel tired

“ And so you got to just learn what mental cues you can pull on to turn everything on ” – Ryan Hall

How Ryan tweaked his formula after 2011

He started spacing things out a little bit more
He would take 2 easy days between every session
He was focused on a 9-10-day cycle But was making those workouts higher quality, bigger
Sometimes instead of those short Tuesday sessions he would do 20 by 1000 meters with a 200-meter easy job between each 1000 meter This was done at a faster than marathon pace The goal is to drive your threshold down He spent a lot of time running threshold at a certain pace; this was a tad bit quicker and it broken up these threshold runs His marathon target pace was 3 minutes per kilometer (for a 2:06:30 marathon) This workout pace would be 2:55; 5 seconds per K He loved this workout for marathon training He may have gotten too far away from 5K fitness then
Peter asked how many weeks he would succeed in this quicker pace for this Tuesday workout Most days This worked because he wasn’t trying to bite off more than he can chew He wasn’t trying to hit home runs in workouts These were workouts where he was set up to see success Often his thresholds would get better every time he attempted it As the build up is going, he’s getting stronger, getting in better shape, getting lighter He would see good progress in the 12-week buildup to a marathon
More likely than not, in nearly every build up he would get a little pain Foot pain, knee pain; little things just pop up This is usually what would cause him to miss a workout This is when he would go to cross training
He utilizes cross training more now as a coach than when he was running
But was making those workouts higher quality, bigger
This was done at a faster than marathon pace
The goal is to drive your threshold down
He spent a lot of time running threshold at a certain pace; this was a tad bit quicker and it broken up these threshold runs His marathon target pace was 3 minutes per kilometer (for a 2:06:30 marathon) This workout pace would be 2:55; 5 seconds per K
He loved this workout for marathon training
He may have gotten too far away from 5K fitness then
His marathon target pace was 3 minutes per kilometer (for a 2:06:30 marathon)
This workout pace would be 2:55; 5 seconds per K
Most days
This worked because he wasn’t trying to bite off more than he can chew
He wasn’t trying to hit home runs in workouts
These were workouts where he was set up to see success
Often his thresholds would get better every time he attempted it
As the build up is going, he’s getting stronger, getting in better shape, getting lighter
He would see good progress in the 12-week buildup to a marathon
Foot pain, knee pain; little things just pop up
This is usually what would cause him to miss a workout
This is when he would go to cross training

“ When I was a runner, I was just kind of the old school, run or die kind of mentality, which is not a helpful mentality to have ” – Ryan Hall

A new personal record at the 2011 Boston Marathon and lessons on maximizing your own potential [2:03:30]

Ryan was coming off a terrible half marathon a month before Boston It was one of those scenarios where he began with really high expectations Things weren’t clicking in the race and it created a negative mindset that snowballed He was just trying to get to the finish line
He can’t remember his time; it was 66 minutes or something Which is 7 minutes off his personal best
Training had been going super well; things were clicking; he thought he was in really good shape
He doesn’t know why the half marathon went so bad This makes it hard to manage mentally
But he got back up and started training again
It was one of those scenarios where he began with really high expectations
Things weren’t clicking in the race and it created a negative mindset that snowballed
He was just trying to get to the finish line
Which is 7 minutes off his personal best
This makes it hard to manage mentally

“ I found this over and over again, not just with myself, but with athletes that I coach, oftentimes these races, when you’re in heavy marathon training, won’t go well, but then they’ll turn something on inside of you ” – Ryan Hall

He came out of this race and started feeling phenomenal; it was a very quick change
He took his training to the next level
He headed back to Stanford to train at sea level This was how he’d utilize altitude pre-kids He has kids now, so he can’t do this
This was how he’d utilize altitude pre-kids He has kids now, so he can’t do this
He has kids now, so he can’t do this

Cycling between training at altitude and sea level

He spent 2 months up at altitude, dropped down to sea level for a month; go back up, drop back down
He took this idea from Jack Daniels who has done a ton of research in the running space Daniels is probably one of the most brilliant minds in running He said this type of training produces a dramatic increase in hematocrit , hemoglobin , early on in those 1st 3 weeks and then it just starts to taper off This goes back down at sea level But when you go back up to altitude again, it produces another big dramatic shift The goal is to keep shifting up
There are positives to training at sea level He sleeps better at sea level He runs faster He can do workouts at sea level he can’t do at altitude
Things started clicking
Daniels is probably one of the most brilliant minds in running
He said this type of training produces a dramatic increase in hematocrit , hemoglobin , early on in those 1st 3 weeks and then it just starts to taper off This goes back down at sea level But when you go back up to altitude again, it produces another big dramatic shift The goal is to keep shifting up
This goes back down at sea level
But when you go back up to altitude again, it produces another big dramatic shift
The goal is to keep shifting up
He sleeps better at sea level
He runs faster
He can do workouts at sea level he can’t do at altitude

Training before Boston

He started having caffeine every single day; this was the first time in his career he started doing this
He started running his easy runs a lot quicker He was just floating through it at a 5:30, 5:20 pace
Even the day before the race, he did an easy 30-minute run plus 6 x 100 meter strides That was a custom run of his before the marathon He was glad his wife, Sara wasn’t there because she would have killed him for running as fast as he did He was by himself and just hammering at a 5:30 pace But it was easy
Peter asks what his hematocrit would vary by between sea level and elevation
Ryan doesn’t remember; he wasn’t super great about doing blood work It would come up pretty significantly in those 1st 3 weeks for sure
He felt like a million bucks going into Boston
But he did have the half marathon performance hanging over him; the feeling of having just tanked
He was just floating through it at a 5:30, 5:20 pace
That was a custom run of his before the marathon
He was glad his wife, Sara wasn’t there because she would have killed him for running as fast as he did
He was by himself and just hammering at a 5:30 pace But it was easy
But it was easy
It would come up pretty significantly in those 1st 3 weeks for sure

Talk of a tailwind foreshadows his record-breaking race

The day before the race he remembers talking to one of the race organizers; she mentioned they were supposed to get a good tailwind for the race Ryan just lit up inside when he heard this because he gets excited about running fast
Ryan just lit up inside when he heard this because he gets excited about running fast

“ I’d rather break a world record than win a gold medal ” – Ryan Hall

Ryan remembers talking to Bill Rodgers (who won the Boston Marathon 4 times and the New York Marathon 4 times) Bill told him, “ about once every 10 years you get a wicked tailwind in Boston, then you can really roll ” Bill had a year when he got a tailwind, he stopped 4 times in the race to tie his shoe, to walk, to get water, and he still ran 2:09 These words were in Ryan’s head at the starting line in Hopkinton that morning
Bill told him, “ about once every 10 years you get a wicked tailwind in Boston, then you can really roll ”
Bill had a year when he got a tailwind, he stopped 4 times in the race to tie his shoe, to walk, to get water, and he still ran 2:09
These words were in Ryan’s head at the starting line in Hopkinton that morning

Race Day— the 2011 Boston Marathon

At the start of the race Ryan thought, “ I’m never going to get a day like this again. I’m going to make the most of it .”
He always likes to go to the front and lead; this was his signature
He didn’t let one moment in the race go by where he wasn’t pressing
He thought, “ I’m going to get everything I can out of every single mile ”
A lot of his miles were 4:30 in that race
He came through the half in 61:52
The race organizer was on a motorcycle in front of him, and he saw Ryan’s split at the halfway point and he radioed his clock eyes, “ Hey, you guys messed up the clocks. It says 61:50 .” And they confirmed, “ Yeah, that’s right ” At the time the world record, was around 2:04 So he was under the world record pace
The first half of the Boston Marathon is slightly down, and he had the wind at his back
There is Heartbreak Hill at the very end
From mile 17.5 through mile 20, it’s all up and down hills It’s known as a challenging, slow course But again, if you get the right wind and you make the most of it…
These aren’t pace races either In most fast races, there are pacemakers there, and they’re in charge of pace Guys are just tucked in for most first 20 miles at least, and then they’re off and running the last 10K
In this race he was at the front, just hammering and all of Africa was sitting behind him enjoying the ride But he didn’t care; he was going to make the most of that day
One memory from that race; it was one of the guys on the side of the road… Some of the spots, especially early on in Hopkinton, you’re just going through neighborhoods and stuff; people are out in their lawn chairs One of the guys yelled at me, “ Hey Ryan, don’t let him steal your tailwind ” And he was thinking about that for a while,
It was just cool to be with those guys, be in the lead group, and also to get to push them along to something that would’ve… It was a super historic day
The top 2 guys went on to run 2: 03 low, maybe 2:03:04 This was almost a minute under the world record at the time.
And Ryan finished 4th and ran 2:04:58
And they confirmed, “ Yeah, that’s right ”
At the time the world record, was around 2:04
So he was under the world record pace
It’s known as a challenging, slow course
But again, if you get the right wind and you make the most of it…
In most fast races, there are pacemakers there, and they’re in charge of pace
Guys are just tucked in for most first 20 miles at least, and then they’re off and running the last 10K
But he didn’t care; he was going to make the most of that day
Some of the spots, especially early on in Hopkinton, you’re just going through neighborhoods and stuff; people are out in their lawn chairs
One of the guys yelled at me, “ Hey Ryan, don’t let him steal your tailwind ”
And he was thinking about that for a while,
This was almost a minute under the world record at the time.

The last mile

Another memorable part of the race was coming through with a mile ago It was right at two hour But he’s in the serious pain cave He went out super fast, super late in the race No one’s around him and he’s just holding on for dear life He saw 2 hours flat and was like, “ okay, if I break 5 minutes for this last mile, I’m going to be under 2:05 ” His PR at the time was 2:06:17 He was already going to run a big PR no matter what 2:05 was insane; that sounds pretty good
There was a part of him that was like, “ just enjoy this last mile, run 5:30; just soak it all in and just enjoy it ”
But another part of him thought, “ you know what? You might never be here again. Why don’t you just put your head down, grit your teeth and bear it, try to break five and get under 2:05? ”
And so that’s what he did And it was a world of pain That last mile is a blur The crowds in Boston were just insane He’ll never forget running down Boylston Street, and the crowds just going crazy He was in fourth place, but he didn’t even care because his performance shifted away from beating other people, to maximizing his own potential And that’s what he get most excited about
It was right at two hour
But he’s in the serious pain cave
He went out super fast, super late in the race
No one’s around him and he’s just holding on for dear life
He saw 2 hours flat and was like, “ okay, if I break 5 minutes for this last mile, I’m going to be under 2:05 ” His PR at the time was 2:06:17 He was already going to run a big PR no matter what 2:05 was insane; that sounds pretty good
His PR at the time was 2:06:17
He was already going to run a big PR no matter what
2:05 was insane; that sounds pretty good
And it was a world of pain
That last mile is a blur
The crowds in Boston were just insane
He’ll never forget running down Boylston Street, and the crowds just going crazy
He was in fourth place, but he didn’t even care because his performance shifted away from beating other people, to maximizing his own potential And that’s what he get most excited about
And that’s what he get most excited about

“ It’s about me optimizing what I’ve been given, my gift. And also just seeing the fun part of the growth and the improvement .” – Ryan Hall

Coming across the finish line, he just put his hands out and soaked it all in, yelled super loud
His wife was there at the finish to give him a big hug, and it was a super special moment
He felt he’d won the race even though he hadn’t
But it was one of those magical moments (like Houston) that you may never get again So he just soaked it all in and enjoyed it
So he just soaked it all in and enjoyed it

Learning from failure and takeaways from his disappointing performance at the 2012 Olympics [2:12:30]

Going into the 2012 Olympics in London after Boston

Peter remarks, “ the most amazing part of your journey is not the successes. It’s the way in which you’ve been able to kind of carry yourself through the failures .”
There is this parallel between ’07 and ’08; and then again in ’11 and ’12 In how he was feeling going into London The expectations early in that season were very high
Ryan agrees, coming out of a 2:04, he was going to take a shot at winning this race, even though he’d just been beaten by a minute by those guys He knew he wasn’t expected to necessarily win, but he knew he had a shot If you run 2:04 for the marathon, in those days, you have a chance to win a gold medal
Talking about not putting on the weight after he ran London, this was a theme going back to Beijing Leading up to the buildup for Beijing and he did the same thing; and it made his training run flat This is where having a coach is a helpful thing If he would’ve told a coach what he was going to do, the coach would say, “ That’s a really bad idea. Let’s just stick with what we know works for you in this situation. And that’s putting on 10 pounds .” But instead of doing that … his heart was good, his intentions were good He really wanted to hear God, and a way that people across all traditions do this is through fasting So instead of putting on 10 pounds, he did a 1-week fast
In how he was feeling going into London
The expectations early in that season were very high
He knew he wasn’t expected to necessarily win, but he knew he had a shot
If you run 2:04 for the marathon, in those days, you have a chance to win a gold medal
Leading up to the buildup for Beijing and he did the same thing; and it made his training run flat
This is where having a coach is a helpful thing
If he would’ve told a coach what he was going to do, the coach would say, “ That’s a really bad idea. Let’s just stick with what we know works for you in this situation. And that’s putting on 10 pounds .”
But instead of doing that … his heart was good, his intentions were good
He really wanted to hear God, and a way that people across all traditions do this is through fasting
So instead of putting on 10 pounds, he did a 1-week fast

Preparing for London and lessons learned about not depleting his body

Peter asks how close this was to the Olympics Boston was April 15th; the Olympics were in August There was enough time for him to get a full buildup for the game He had plenty of time to put on weight and do his usual thing
But he wanted clarity on how to train for this thing
So instead of his weight going from 137 to 150 during that 2-week period, it went from 137 to 130 flat
He started the training in a really depleted state His body wasn’t in a good state Mentally and spiritually, he was in the best spot he’d ever been But his body wasn’t ready to go at all; it needed a break after that
He began his training and was running pretty well initially, but it went downhill from there
It became a miracle that he even made it to the starting line, considering how poorly his training was going Just nothing was working
And this is what he tells himself in the weight room all the time now When he’s getting stale in training and not seeing growth If he’s not taking in enough calories; it doesn’t matter how he’s training, it’s not going to work
That’s how it was for him in that buildup, his body was depleted He didn’t have enough calories on board It was a frustrating period of training leading up to that He took his watch off for all his workouts because it was so discouraging to see how slow he was running compared to what he was accustomed to It was helpful to get away from the data but it wasn’t enough to get his body back into the state it needed to be in
Boston was April 15th; the Olympics were in August
There was enough time for him to get a full buildup for the game
He had plenty of time to put on weight and do his usual thing
His body wasn’t in a good state
Mentally and spiritually, he was in the best spot he’d ever been
But his body wasn’t ready to go at all; it needed a break after that
Just nothing was working
When he’s getting stale in training and not seeing growth
If he’s not taking in enough calories; it doesn’t matter how he’s training, it’s not going to work
He didn’t have enough calories on board
It was a frustrating period of training leading up to that
He took his watch off for all his workouts because it was so discouraging to see how slow he was running compared to what he was accustomed to
It was helpful to get away from the data but it wasn’t enough to get his body back into the state it needed to be in

Optimism at the start of London but injury leads him to drop out

He’s a very optimistic person, so he’s pretty good at generating hope, and there was some genuine hope at the starting line in London
Sometimes training can go really badly and then, pop, you can have one big day
He always has the thought that something special could happen today
But early on in the race the pace felt super hard, super fast This is often the case when he gets too lean and too light; then he has injury issues
Luckily his chiropractor, John Ball, had him in one piece at the starting line
But early in the race his right hamstring started hurting, and that’s ultimately what led him to drop out as I was in the middle of that race He was already starting to limp a little seven miles into the race He had to be smart, because this is his livelihood, and he’s looking out for the long term He’s willing to be that guy who comes limping in 7 hours after everyone and gets the cheers and inspires people for just hanging in there But at the same time, he also wants to be good to his body, and he’s not been good to his body a lot It was just kind of a moment where he had a sense of clarity that he needed to be good to himself and call it a day
This is often the case when he gets too lean and too light; then he has injury issues
He was already starting to limp a little seven miles into the race
He had to be smart, because this is his livelihood, and he’s looking out for the long term
He’s willing to be that guy who comes limping in 7 hours after everyone and gets the cheers and inspires people for just hanging in there
But at the same time, he also wants to be good to his body, and he’s not been good to his body a lot
It was just kind of a moment where he had a sense of clarity that he needed to be good to himself and call it a day

“ So that was actually the first race I ever dropped out of in my life, the London Marathon ” – Ryan Hall

It felt so surreal
It’s a looped course, so you’re going past the finish and the start a number of times
He remembers the second loop when he dropped out; he almost started of running again because it just felt so wrong, so weird It felt he was in someone else’s movie or something But then ultimately he just walked off the course and then began the long process of working through that mentally and emotionally
It felt he was in someone else’s movie or something
But then ultimately he just walked off the course and then began the long process of working through that mentally and emotionally

Mourning London and restoring hope with the next challenge

It started with Cinnabon
The next day he’s touring around with his family in London and sees a Cinnabon He tends to go to food when feeling emotionally low
He’s sitting out on the curb, just eating it; and he looks up and someone’s taking a picture of him eating this Cinnabon
He’s learned to pick himself up so many times; he’s gotten a lot better at it.
For him he needs this period of just just letting himself be sad for however long that takes, a period of mourning the loss Because London was a big goal
And then the next step is to restore hope, to decide the next thing he’s going after
Then he has a little meeting with myself of things he’s going to tweak, to do differently, to do better That gives him way more hope that he’s not going to repeat the same experiment
After London, he’s going back after this sub-5 minute mile and sub-5 deadlift. He’s going to tweak this, this and this, and he really believes it’s going to work this time
He tends to go to food when feeling emotionally low
Because London was a big goal
That gives him way more hope that he’s not going to repeat the same experiment
He’s going to tweak this, this and this, and he really believes it’s going to work this time

“ You have to believe that your training is going to work ” – Ryan Hall

That’s why it’s so important for athletes to believe in their coach If you don’t don’t think it’s going to work, it doesn’t matter what’s prescribed, it’s probably not going to work. Belief is so important
He picked himself up and got going again
If you don’t don’t think it’s going to work, it doesn’t matter what’s prescribed, it’s probably not going to work.
Belief is so important

Injuries [2:20:15]

But he had a problem with compensation issues This is common in runners
He had an issue in his upper high hamstring where it attaches, but he just ran through it That issue began because he had plantar fasciitis when training for the 2012 Olympic trials He got that right before the trials, and had no choice but to run through it Then that persisted for eight months And so a little compensation resulted in an injury on the other side, in upper hamstring in the games
Then he tore his left quad building up for New York
He tore his right quad building up for Boston
Then he got a sacral stress fracture on his left side after that, training for the next marathon
It was literally marathon after marathon He’d sign up for it, get the deal all worked out, then not be able to do it because he’d get some huge injury that would put me out for a long time
He didn’t have a lot of injuries before this and always considered himself to be super durable
It was a 4 years of a wild ride trying everything he could think of but ultimately nothing was working
This is common in runners
That issue began because he had plantar fasciitis when training for the 2012 Olympic trials He got that right before the trials, and had no choice but to run through it Then that persisted for eight months
And so a little compensation resulted in an injury on the other side, in upper hamstring in the games
He got that right before the trials, and had no choice but to run through it
Then that persisted for eight months
He’d sign up for it, get the deal all worked out, then not be able to do it because he’d get some huge injury that would put me out for a long time

Should have used better nutrition

Looking back on it, a big piece of it was nutrition
He got to a better point mentally where he didn’t have to use food binging as a mechanism after bad races
But he still needed to put on weight Looking back, this is a big part of why he had so many struggles from 2012 through his retirement in 2016
He still needed to get his body in a good spot and wasn’t doing that because he didn’t need to do it from an emotional, mental standpoint Physically, this was killing him
Looking back, this is a big part of why he had so many struggles from 2012 through his retirement in 2016
Physically, this was killing him

Should have taken more time off

If he could go back, he would do something his mom always wanted for him He would take 3 months completely off and not run at all At the time he thought this suggestion was crazy But it would have been super helpful, just to get away from it and get his body back into a good spot
He would take 3 months completely off and not run at all
At the time he thought this suggestion was crazy
But it would have been super helpful, just to get away from it and get his body back into a good spot

Why Ryan feels so much better physically and mentally nowadays

Recovery and weight lifting

Now he feels better in his current lifestyle, focused on lifting and doing minimal on the endurance end
His testosterone is better; it was recently tested at 1000 He didn’t think this was possible for him This is a result of his lifestyle shift: lifting heavy, eating more calories, having his body in a better state, sleeping a tone His body has been restored
Lifting has helped him give back to his body
Lifting is something he’s not genetically gifted at, but he loves the challenge
He didn’t think this was possible for him
This is a result of his lifestyle shift: lifting heavy, eating more calories, having his body in a better state, sleeping a tone
His body has been restored

“ So every single day I’m in the weight room, I go to failure. And I know that’s not recommended, but that’s just who I am. That’s what I love to do .” – Ryan Hall

He feels good where he is now, but he wonders if he would have allowed himself to get into this state back when he was running, how that could have went
But the competitive running ship has sailed He now weighs 185 Running feels completely differently compared to when he weighed 137
He now weighs 185
Running feels completely differently compared to when he weighed 137

Utilizing cardio and strength training for overall health, and how Ryan uses blood flow restriction in his workouts [2:24:45]

Ryan notes that hormonal health really affects mental health, motivation, and energy levels
For him, he can run every single day and be healthy
But as you get older, you need to do something to offset how depleting of the body this can be
For him, this is where weightlifting comes in
He knows a lot of runners don’t want to lift weights; he was the same way But there are ways around this BFR (blood flow restriction) is one approach
He’s been lifting super heavy for 6 years and has never gotten hurt lifting It’s not because his form is good It’s because he’s intuitive; if something doesn’t feel right, he doesn’t put on the weight He’s very cautious in the weight room
There are healthy ways to lift weights
For runners, he loves to prescribe hex bar deadlifts with the handles up This way you’re not going down as low You’re not loading up the lower back as much
But there are ways around this
BFR (blood flow restriction) is one approach
It’s not because his form is good
It’s because he’s intuitive; if something doesn’t feel right, he doesn’t put on the weight
He’s very cautious in the weight room
This way you’re not going down as low
You’re not loading up the lower back as much

“ That’s a much more running specific strength that is going to be great for your power development ” – Ryan Hall

He loves half squats for the same reason A lot of running is just hip extension Every time your foot contacts the ground, your hips have to extend to get out of that position So we need to do things that really focus on that; half squats are great for that And your liability of getting hurt half squatting is way less than butt to the ground So you can load up the bars super heavy with the half squat and get all the hormonal benefits of lifting heavy Get the bone benefits of loading up a bar and having it on your back, and avoid stress reactions Get your bone density up that way and just feel really good coming out
He’s been playing around a lot with BFR
He thinks BFR is a way for runners who are maybe skinny, or more concerned about getting hurt, to get the same benefits of lifting heavy without having to put a bunch of weight on the bar
Peter comments that a couple weeks ago he did some sets on the Airdyne Bike with heavy BFR on his upper thighs He thought he could hold 300 watts for 2 minutes, but no freaking way He struggled to hold 200 watts for 2 minutes The problem wasn’t his heart and lungs, it was the absolute pain in his legs He wondered if this would be a good form of cross training for cycling
He wonders if this would translate to running He can’t really walk when he’s in the full BFR
Ryan thinks this is interesting and is going to try BFR on a run
A lot of running is just hip extension
Every time your foot contacts the ground, your hips have to extend to get out of that position So we need to do things that really focus on that; half squats are great for that
And your liability of getting hurt half squatting is way less than butt to the ground
So you can load up the bars super heavy with the half squat and get all the hormonal benefits of lifting heavy Get the bone benefits of loading up a bar and having it on your back, and avoid stress reactions Get your bone density up that way and just feel really good coming out
So we need to do things that really focus on that; half squats are great for that
Get the bone benefits of loading up a bar and having it on your back, and avoid stress reactions
Get your bone density up that way and just feel really good coming out
He thought he could hold 300 watts for 2 minutes, but no freaking way
He struggled to hold 200 watts for 2 minutes
The problem wasn’t his heart and lungs, it was the absolute pain in his legs
He wondered if this would be a good form of cross training for cycling
He can’t really walk when he’s in the full BFR

Performance enhancing drugs (or lack thereof) in marathon runners [2:29:15]

Peter asks about drug use in running; for competitive cycling drug use is the norm
Why is it that marathon runners, who would benefit from tons of performance enhancing drugs (PEDs), traditionally haven’t used them?
Ryan thinks it’s the culture
He knew guys who 100% were not on drugs and were winning races Meb for example, he won Boston, New York, metals Dean won a medal at the Olympics, and 100% he’s not on it
Meb for example, he won Boston, New York, metals
Dean won a medal at the Olympics, and 100% he’s not on it

“ If you can think of one person who’s doing what you want to do and they’re not on it; you’re like, then I can too ” – Ryan Hall

Look at Lance and the cycling culture; this is not the case
Ryan always chose to believe everyone was innocent, even if he heard rumblings He chose this outlook because he didn’t want to be at a mental disadvantage If he believed the person next to him was on something, then they already had one on him He would think they are going to be superhuman on performance enhancing drugs So he always just believed that everyone was innocent and never concerned himself too much with it
He’s been around a lot of training groups in the US, a lot of different athletes and never heard of anyone talking about these drugs or having access to them He’s been in Kenya and they do talk about it there There have been guys busted, all over the world So it does happen occasionally in running
Peter asks, “ What are the drugs of choice? Is it EPO? Is it testosterone? ”
EPO, and a lot of gray line stuff too
Where people are just looking for every advantage they can get and maybe crossing some of those lines with Alberto Salazar and all that He was involved with a doping case that supposedly went down Ryan didn’t follow it closely
He chose this outlook because he didn’t want to be at a mental disadvantage
If he believed the person next to him was on something, then they already had one on him
He would think they are going to be superhuman on performance enhancing drugs
So he always just believed that everyone was innocent and never concerned himself too much with it
He’s been in Kenya and they do talk about it there
There have been guys busted, all over the world
So it does happen occasionally in running
He was involved with a doping case that supposedly went down
Ryan didn’t follow it closely

Traits of the greatest marathon runners [2:32:30]

Ethiopia

Peter asks about Africa
Ryan adopted 4 girls from Ethiopia which speaks to his love of children and how much he’s embraced the East African culture
What makes Africans great runners?
Ryan notes it’s a perfect storm or highly motivated individuals who are highly genetically gifted
There are some theories about a small pelvis being helpful for distance running
When he walks behind his kids sometimes on hikes he notices how narrow their shoulders are and how small their bone structure is It’s crazy; they’re just so small
It’s crazy; they’re just so small

Famous long-distance runners

Ryan reminisces about running next to Haile Gebrselassie (one of the greatest distance runners of all time) The first time he ran with him at the London marathon, he caught up to his group and was excited to be running with him He could not get over how small he was
Their body structure gives them a huge advantage
He thinks they can run a lot faster than they’re running
He’s curious about their approach to training versus our approach Who is doing it right? Maybe a blend of these 2 approaches is best
Peter asks what makes Kipchoge so great He is perhaps the greatest marathon runner today
Ryan never ran with him; they were coming up at the same time; they’re very similar in age
He saw him at the London marathon a couple year ago
Kipchoge is genetically gifted but also humble (that is huge) When you start to think you’re great and done all this great stuff, it almost makes it harder to get back there, or to exceed it He feels like when you buy into how great you are, it kind of sets the limit on you He’s never seen anyone as successful as Kipchoge
He must get huge paydays to do these marathons, yet he lives in a super simple place He shares a room with training partners How many multimillionaires do that?
Ryan thinks there’s something about his mentality and humbleness, and that’s really what he’s always found most inspiring about African runners This is why he has fallen in love with their culture, whether it’s Kenya or Ethiopia They have a carfree, fearless mentality of, “ I’m just going to put myself in it and go for it ”
But Kipchoge also balances that with being very controlled This sets him apart when you read about his training He’s always talking about running like 80% max and everything being super controlled
Ryan hasn’t gotten results with that type of training, but it works for Kipchoge
He’s by far in away the greatest marathoner to ever walk the planet
So whatever he is doing is working
Ryan thinks a big part of it is his mentality
The first time he ran with him at the London marathon, he caught up to his group and was excited to be running with him
He could not get over how small he was
Who is doing it right?
Maybe a blend of these 2 approaches is best
He is perhaps the greatest marathon runner today
When you start to think you’re great and done all this great stuff, it almost makes it harder to get back there, or to exceed it
He feels like when you buy into how great you are, it kind of sets the limit on you
He’s never seen anyone as successful as Kipchoge
He shares a room with training partners How many multimillionaires do that?
How many multimillionaires do that?
This is why he has fallen in love with their culture, whether it’s Kenya or Ethiopia
They have a carfree, fearless mentality of, “ I’m just going to put myself in it and go for it ”
This sets him apart when you read about his training
He’s always talking about running like 80% max and everything being super controlled

“ His mental approach to training and racing is the most composed I’ve ever seen in an athlete ” – Ryan Hall

Peter asks, “ Do you think we will see a sub two hour marathon as an official marathon in our lifetime? ”
Without a doubt
So a woman just ran 62 minutes, 62:50 or something for half-marathon; which is absolutely insane She could be the first woman to break 2:10 for the marathon We’re seeing huge performances like this
She could be the first woman to break 2:10 for the marathon
We’re seeing huge performances like this

How do the shoes factor in?

With the new technology people are running two minutes faster over the marathon with these shoes on
But I think it’s affected the psyche a ton

“ What people think is possible now has just been blown up ” – Ryan Hall

Now people are trying insane stuff, like a sub-2 hour marathon
That would have never happened without these shoes

7 marathons in 7 days on 7 continents—saying goodbye to the sport [2:38:45]

Peter recounts some of Ryan’s stunts—7 marathons in 7 days on 7 continents sounds ridiculous But it’s made more ridiculous by the fact that he didn’t train for it
Ryan was retired from pro running when one of his pastor friends from LA ( Matthew Barnett ) texted him about this challenge
Something about it captured Ryan, and he felt like he did at 13 when he was going on that first big run around Big Bear Lake
He was doing zero runs at this point; he was only in the weight room, focused on strength
He ended up joining this challenge
But it’s made more ridiculous by the fact that he didn’t train for it

Training

He started training because if he was going to do this, he wanted to enjoy it He didn’t enjoy the training He started getting a lot of the same fatigue issues that came with professional running So he decided to stop training and enjoy his life for the 9 months leading up to this He ran 3 days a week, between 5-8 miles 8 miles was his longest run leading up to this challenge where he was going to run 183 miles in 1 week This is by far the most he’s ever run in a week Prior to this maybe he ran 140 miles This challenge involved hopping on airplanes
He didn’t enjoy the training
He started getting a lot of the same fatigue issues that came with professional running
So he decided to stop training and enjoy his life for the 9 months leading up to this
He ran 3 days a week, between 5-8 miles
8 miles was his longest run leading up to this challenge where he was going to run 183 miles in 1 week This is by far the most he’s ever run in a week Prior to this maybe he ran 140 miles This challenge involved hopping on airplanes
This is by far the most he’s ever run in a week
Prior to this maybe he ran 140 miles
This challenge involved hopping on airplanes

Details of the challenge

It was a trip of al lifetime
There was a group of 30 of them
Richard Donovan put it on; it’s called the World Marathon Challenge
The trip and the challenge cost about $40,000

Antarctica

It starts in Antarctica; this was the coolest marathon It was a 7 mile loop course He thought it was going to be flat and just white There were all these mountains They were on a glacier They had to take a Russian airplane to get there It looked like something out of a movie
He felt pretty good during the run
He was super into lifting at the time
His idea was to take in 50 g of protein every 7 miles or so because he didn’t want to lose his gains This is the opposite of what he usually does Usually he takes in simple sugar With this new nutrition by mile 23 he is completely out of it; he needed sugar stat His protein bar hardly has any carbs in it At a support tent (which was unmanned) they had laid out dried fruit and candy He crawls in there and grabs as much candy as he can He started feeling better immediately He learned his lesson
He thinks he ran that marathon in 3:30 or so Peter comments on how amazing this is; 3:30 is still fast for a marathon
It was a 7 mile loop course
He thought it was going to be flat and just white
There were all these mountains
They were on a glacier
They had to take a Russian airplane to get there
It looked like something out of a movie
This is the opposite of what he usually does
Usually he takes in simple sugar
With this new nutrition by mile 23 he is completely out of it; he needed sugar stat
His protein bar hardly has any carbs in it
At a support tent (which was unmanned) they had laid out dried fruit and candy He crawls in there and grabs as much candy as he can He started feeling better immediately He learned his lesson
He crawls in there and grabs as much candy as he can
He started feeling better immediately
He learned his lesson
Peter comments on how amazing this is; 3:30 is still fast for a marathon

Chile

The second marathon was in Chile
They got to sleep in a hotel that night which was nice There were only 2 nights during the week where they got to sleep in a hotel room
That marathon felt pretty good
Antarctica was supposed to be really cold, but it didn’t feel that bad Maybe it was a dry cold He wore his regular run stuff that he would use in Flagstaff in the wintertime Full tights, long sleeve, a shell jacket, and gloves/ mittens, and a beanie He wasn’t sweating at all They say you don’t want to sweat because it freezes on you and can cause hypothermia He was good
He thinks his time in Chile was a little bit faster than Antarctica but not a lot
Antarctica was nice because running on the snow doesn’t beat up your legs; it’s a little bit softer
He also used the most cushy shoe he could find because he knew his legs were going to take a beating
He weighed around 170 at the time
There were only 2 nights during the week where they got to sleep in a hotel room
Maybe it was a dry cold
He wore his regular run stuff that he would use in Flagstaff in the wintertime
Full tights, long sleeve, a shell jacket, and gloves/ mittens, and a beanie
He wasn’t sweating at all
They say you don’t want to sweat because it freezes on you and can cause hypothermia
He was good

Miami

3rd they flew to Miami and that was fun; it was like a homecoming back in the states but also warm
He had more trouble with this one Maybe he ran Miami at 3:30 or something
Maybe he ran Miami at 3:30 or something

Spain

4th they flew to Spain
He had the words day ever in Spain
Luckily one of his Dutch friends came over and rode his bike with him on this run

“ Even when I was running professionally running can be your best friend and your greatest enemy all at the same time ” – Ryan Hall

Morocco

5th was Morocco for Africa
They got a hotel room for that one
Considering how bad he felt in Spain, his goal was to start out super chill and just make it through this one

“ The mystery of running, why you’d all of a sudden feel so good? I have no idea, but I just started feeling like a million bucks. ” – Ryan Hall

He started out chill but started feeling good, like his old self He was mentally super engaged, he started charging, and came home super quick
He ended up running this one around 3:04 Which for zero training was really good
From then on he was pumped
He was mentally super engaged, he started charging, and came home super quick
Which for zero training was really good

Dubai

6th was Dubai
The problem after Morocco was he developed a bit of a limp; his hip was bothering him He thought he could shake it off But in Dubai his hip was on fire and he knew something was really wrong He ended up walking the back half of that marathon
His time was probably over 4 hours
He thought he could shake it off
But in Dubai his hip was on fire and he knew something was really wrong
He ended up walking the back half of that marathon

Sydney

Last they headed to Sydney to finish in Australia
The whole thing was crazy They were on a private jet with food, movies, everything He didn’t watch 1 movie the entire week Whenever he was on the plan he was asleep; he was so tired
When they landed in Sydney he tries to stand and put weight on the leg where the hip was bothering him and the pain took his breath away The pain was super sharp He knew he was in trouble He had a hard time putting any weight on it at all
He was also sick of all the tiny things you do as a pro runner Mobility stretching, etc He wasn’t doing any of this He didn’t wear compression socks the entire week When he got to Sydney his ankles looked like elephant ankles, they were so swollen It was actually painful
In Sydney he put on the same singlet he wore at his first marathon in London in 2006 or 2007 He was thinking, “ this is my last marathon…this is my goodbye tour ”
He went in with the same attitude he had for his 15 mile run around Big Bear
He wanted to go out with a bang
They were on a private jet with food, movies, everything
He didn’t watch 1 movie the entire week
Whenever he was on the plan he was asleep; he was so tired
The pain was super sharp
He knew he was in trouble
He had a hard time putting any weight on it at all
Mobility stretching, etc
He wasn’t doing any of this
He didn’t wear compression socks the entire week
When he got to Sydney his ankles looked like elephant ankles, they were so swollen It was actually painful
It was actually painful
He was thinking, “ this is my last marathon…this is my goodbye tour ”

“ I never got to say goodbye to the sport. It’s like, I just faded out. And all of a sudden I was gone and my body wasn’t able to run. ” – Ryan Hall

This was his chance to say goodbye to the sport that he loved
The last marathon was at Manly beach They did a mile out, mile back for the whole marathon It was sick, the beach was lit up by the moon and the stars They were running at 1:00 am for some reason He would have rather gotten more sleep He thinks Richard scheduled the run at night was to give people enough time to finish He needed the extra time that day He got a massage in the middle of the run When he got home and had a MRI he found out he had a stress reaction in his hip Massages aren’t the best for a stress reaction He’ll never forget coming across that finish line The sun was up It took him 5.5 hours It was the longest, slowest, most painful marathon Every time he put his leg down on that concrete he felt the zing of a super sharp pain But after running 6 marathons in a row he was like, “ I’m doing whatever it takes to get through this seventh one. I’m not stopping now and never signing up for this trip again. So I got to get it done. ” He came across the finish line, took off his shoes and left them there This was a finish he stole from Olympic wrestlers who leave their shoes on the mat after they have wrestled their last match It was a symbolic way of saying, “ I’ve given everything I have to give…it’s over, I’m walking away ”
They did a mile out, mile back for the whole marathon
It was sick, the beach was lit up by the moon and the stars
They were running at 1:00 am for some reason
He would have rather gotten more sleep
He thinks Richard scheduled the run at night was to give people enough time to finish
He needed the extra time that day He got a massage in the middle of the run When he got home and had a MRI he found out he had a stress reaction in his hip Massages aren’t the best for a stress reaction
He’ll never forget coming across that finish line The sun was up It took him 5.5 hours It was the longest, slowest, most painful marathon Every time he put his leg down on that concrete he felt the zing of a super sharp pain But after running 6 marathons in a row he was like, “ I’m doing whatever it takes to get through this seventh one. I’m not stopping now and never signing up for this trip again. So I got to get it done. ” He came across the finish line, took off his shoes and left them there This was a finish he stole from Olympic wrestlers who leave their shoes on the mat after they have wrestled their last match It was a symbolic way of saying, “ I’ve given everything I have to give…it’s over, I’m walking away ”
He got a massage in the middle of the run
When he got home and had a MRI he found out he had a stress reaction in his hip
Massages aren’t the best for a stress reaction
The sun was up
It took him 5.5 hours
It was the longest, slowest, most painful marathon
Every time he put his leg down on that concrete he felt the zing of a super sharp pain
But after running 6 marathons in a row he was like, “ I’m doing whatever it takes to get through this seventh one. I’m not stopping now and never signing up for this trip again. So I got to get it done. ”
He came across the finish line, took off his shoes and left them there
This was a finish he stole from Olympic wrestlers who leave their shoes on the mat after they have wrestled their last match
It was a symbolic way of saying, “ I’ve given everything I have to give…it’s over, I’m walking away ”

“ I was tearing up as I was walking back to the hotel just because running gave me so many gifts. It was so life altering for me and the most beautiful part of all of it was the people. Meeting my wife, my kids, all the people I crossed paths with continue .” – Ryan Hall

Reflections on what running has given Ryan [2:49:30]

The people he met are what he holds most dear from that experience
What’s cool about it is that it doesn’t matter what level you run at
We all get to experience that when you sign up for any race You’re out there with a 50,000 amazing people that are on a journey with you We get to do it together
That whole sentiment just hit him super hard; saying goodbye to the sport he loves
But then, it’s been such a beautiful transition though of realizing that that whole season was about seeing how good he could get
Since then he’s realized it wasn’t just for him Everything he’s learned in that season was meant to be passed down It was meant to be shared and meant to help other people
This launched him into the season coaching Coaching his wife, coaching other athletes in person He started Run Free Training where he coaches runners of every single discipline Every level Super slow people Middle school kids Because it doesn’t matter where you’re at, we just want to be on the journey with you and we want to guide you and help you on your journey
So it was really special to realize that even all the mistakes that he made, they weren’t for naught He’s on this podcast, he’s able to share it with the listeners And hopefully they won’t make the same mistakes and they’ll be better off for it
That is his goal now— how he can help people Not just with running but with living Living happier He’s far more concerned with his athletes happiness than with how fast they are
You’re out there with a 50,000 amazing people that are on a journey with you
We get to do it together
Everything he’s learned in that season was meant to be passed down
It was meant to be shared and meant to help other people
Coaching his wife, coaching other athletes in person
He started Run Free Training where he coaches runners of every single discipline Every level Super slow people Middle school kids Because it doesn’t matter where you’re at, we just want to be on the journey with you and we want to guide you and help you on your journey
Every level
Super slow people
Middle school kids
Because it doesn’t matter where you’re at, we just want to be on the journey with you and we want to guide you and help you on your journey
He’s on this podcast, he’s able to share it with the listeners
And hopefully they won’t make the same mistakes and they’ll be better off for it
Not just with running but with living
Living happier
He’s far more concerned with his athletes happiness than with how fast they are

“ I want them to enter into the good life. And I think running is a way to do that. Lifting can be a way to do that, it adds to that, but more than anything I just want them to find joy .” – Ryan Hall

Peter comments that he would love to meet Ryan in person They would have fun lifting together He would love to try some of the crazy challenges Ryan has done He wouldn’t be able to do the farmers-carry up the grand Canyon with a fraction of the weight Ryan used This is something he could see wanting to do one day
The Grand Canyon is an amazing place Peter has only been there once, but it’s still one of the most significant things he’s ever done When he was there, he made it a hiking / swimming trip He swam in the Colorado river and then in each of the waterfalls on the way up There are thes 4 huge waterfalls that get progressively smaller as you go up
They would have fun lifting together
He would love to try some of the crazy challenges Ryan has done He wouldn’t be able to do the farmers-carry up the grand Canyon with a fraction of the weight Ryan used This is something he could see wanting to do one day
He wouldn’t be able to do the farmers-carry up the grand Canyon with a fraction of the weight Ryan used
This is something he could see wanting to do one day
Peter has only been there once, but it’s still one of the most significant things he’s ever done
When he was there, he made it a hiking / swimming trip
He swam in the Colorado river and then in each of the waterfalls on the way up There are thes 4 huge waterfalls that get progressively smaller as you go up
There are thes 4 huge waterfalls that get progressively smaller as you go up

Selected Links / Related Material

Ryan’s coaching website : Run Free Training | [1:45, 51:30, 2:50:45]

Ryan’s book ; Run The Mile You’re In: Finding God in Every Step by Ryan Hall (April 2019) | [1:45, 40:00]

Ryan’s Instagram account : ryanhall3 | Instagram (December 2021) | [2:30]

Ryan’s book about training and marathon running : Running with Joy: My Daily Journey to the Marathon by Ryan Hall (February 2011) | [17:15]

Dr. Huberman who studies palm cooling : Huberman Lab: Supercharge exercise performance & recovery with cooling | (May 2021) | [1:02:45]

Cooling gloves from Stanford : Stanford researchers’ cooling glove ‘better than steroids’ – and helps solve physiological mystery, too | Max McClure, Stanford News (August 29, 2012) | [1:02:45, 1:08:45]

Ryan’s YouTube channel : Run Free Training | [1:43:30]

Wikipedia page on Ryan : Ryan Hall (runner) | Wikipedia (December 2021) |

Article about Ryan’s injuries : Ryan Hall is at a Crossroads | John Brant, Runner’s World (October 4, 2013)

Interview with Ryan’s wife, Sara : Sara Hall Gives the Marathon Another TryIn Chicago on Sunday, she’ll try to overcome her disappointing debut in March | Peter Gambaccini, Runner’s World (October 5, 2015)

Article about Ryan’s retirement : Ryan Hall, America’s Fastest Marathoner, Retires at 33 | Peter Gambaccini, Runner’s World (January 15, 2016)

Article about Ryan’s retirement : His Strength Sapped, Top Marathoner Ryan Hall Decides to Stop | Lindsay Crouse, The New York Times (January 15, 2016)

Article about Ryan’s transition to weightlifting :

Ryan Hall: from beast on the race course to beast in the gym | Ben Snider-McGrath, Canadian Running (July 16, 2020)
How America’s top marathoner packed on 40 pounds of muscle after retiring | Ask Men, Sports Illustrated (November 15, 2016)
The Routine That Helped This Runner Put On 40lbs Of Muscle | Men’s Health (August, 9 2016)

Ryan completes 7 marathons in 7 days : Ryan Hall says 7 marathons in 7 days gave him ‘sense of closure’ | Nick Zaccardi NBC Sports (February 1, 2017)

Documentary of Ryan’s experience at the 2012 Olympics and the redemption that followed : The 41st Day (2019)

Ryan’s first ultramarathon : Ryan Hall Has Run Six Times in 2020. One of Them Was His First Ultramarathon | Andrew Dawson Runner’s World (September 9, 2020)

Comeback of Ryan and Sara : The Reinvention of Ryan and Sara Hall | Rachel Levin, Runner’s World (February 23, 2021)

Instagram post on learning from failures : Instagram | ryanhall3 (October 11)

People Mentioned

Eliud Kipchoge (ran a marathon in under 2 hours in 2019) [5:00, 25:00, 1:30:45, 2:34:45]
Allan Webb (triathlete Peter used to swim with) [5:15]
Sara Hall (Ryan’s wife and professional marathon runner) [12:15]
Meb Keflezighi (silver medalists in the 2004 Olympic Marathon) [20:15, 24:15, 27:30]
Usain Bolt (world record sprinter) [29:45]
Jim Ryun (Olympic track and field athlete; ran the mile in under 4 minutes in highschool) [33:30, 1:13:15]
Dathan Ritzenhein (professional long-distance runner) [33:30]
Lance Armstrong (retired professional road racing cyclist, won the Tour de France 7 times) [59:15; 1:50:45, 2:30:45]
Andrew Huberman (neuroscientist at Stanford, studies palm cooling) [1:02:45]
Ian Dobson (Ryan’s teammate running at Stanford) [1:11:15]
Alan Webb [1:13:15]
Kenenisa Bekele (record holder for running the fastest 5000 meters) [1:24:30]
Craig Mottram (Australian runner who specialized in 5000 meters) [1:24:45]
Steve Prefontaine (long-distance runner and inspiration for the movie Prefontaine ) [1:45:15]
Jack Daniels (running coach) [2:05:15]
Bill Rodgers (former record holder for the marathon) [2:08:00]
Lance Armstrong (legendary cyclist) [2:30:45]
Alberto Salazar (long-distance runner accused of doping) [2:32:00]
Haile Gebrselassie (Ethiopian long-distance runner) [2:34:00]
Eliud Kipchoge (Kenyan distance runner) [2:34:45]
Matthew Barnett (pastor friend from LA) [2:39:30]
Richard Donovan (runner who put together the World Marathon Challenge) [2:41:00]

Ryan Hall is a two time Olympian for the United States in the 2008 and 2012 Marathon. He is the fastest American to ever run the marathon (2:04:58) and half marathon (59:43) distances. Ryan retired from professional running in January of 2016 and now is focused on being a good husband, father, and coach. He is also an author, speaker, and enjoys his hobby of weightlifting with current best of 405 lb deadlift, 395 lb squat and a 315 lb bench press. [ RunFreeTraining.com ]

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