podcast Peter Attia 2022-10-24 topics

#228 ‒ Improving body composition, female-specific training principles, and overcoming an eating disorder | Holly Baxter, APD

Audio

Show notes

Holly Baxter is an accredited practicing dietician (APD), competitive bodybuilder, fitness and nutrition educator, and coach. In this episode, Holly discusses her experience as an athlete and competitive bodybuilder. She also opens up about her struggles with mental health, her long battle with an eating disorder, and the important steps she’s taken in her road to recovery. From there, she explains how she would design a nutrition and training program for a hypothetical female client wanting to improve her physique through the addition of lean muscle and loss of body fat. She explains reasonable expectations for gaining muscle and the value of a “reverse diet” for maintaining weight loss, and she shares her favorite exercises. She also talks through some female-specific training considerations such as programming, reps, volume, hormone replacement therapy, and more.

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We discuss:

Holly’s background and passion for sports and nutrition [2:00];
Holly’s struggle with depression and an eating disorder [4:30];
Reflecting on her eating disorder, body image, and a wake up call [18:15];
Road to recovery: therapy, meditation, self-compassion, and a breakthrough [27:45];
The effect of competitive bodybuilding on women [39:00];
Holly’s competition prep and how she guides her clients wanting to improve their physique [46:45];
Training principles for muscle hypertrophy [57:00];
Training advice for an inexperienced person wanting to build muscle [1:01:30];
Training program for a hypothetical woman wanting to add lean muscle and lose body fat [1:04:15];
Lower body lifts: Holly’s approach to leg workouts with clients [1:14:00];
Upper body exercises: Holly’s approach with her clients [1:24:45];
Importance of nutrition and protein during the muscle building phase [1:34:00];
Changes to nutrition and training during a fat loss phase [1:40:30];
A “reverse diet” after a cutting phase to help prevent weight gain [1:49:45];
Female-specific training considerations: programming, reps, volume, sex hormones, and more [1:53:15];
Holly’s future in bodybuilding and helping struggling women [2:05:45];
Looking forward: Holly’s focus on longevity, bone mineral density, and wellness [2:08:15]; and
More.

Show Notes

*Notes from intro :

Holly Baxter is an accredited practicing dietician, a competitive bodybuilder, a physique coach, and a personal trainer She’s also a fitness educator and a competition coach
In this episode we talk about Holly’s background and her interest in nutrition
She opens up in detail about her struggle with an eating disorder
From there we dive into a case study of a typical female patient Holly may work with What Holly may think about as she works with her on training to improve her physique Holly builds out what a training and nutrition program might look like for this female who wants to gain 5 lbs of muscle and lose 5 lbs of fat
We then talk about female-specific principles when it comes to training
Even if you’re not aspiring to be a bodybuilder, everybody is somewhat interested in improving their physique, and therefore there is a lot of value in this episode about building muscle (particularly for females) Which is important for longevity
She’s also a fitness educator and a competition coach
What Holly may think about as she works with her on training to improve her physique
Holly builds out what a training and nutrition program might look like for this female who wants to gain 5 lbs of muscle and lose 5 lbs of fat
Which is important for longevity

Holly’s background and passion for sports and nutrition [2:00]

Holly grew up in Tasmania, Australia This is the little island that sits just south of the mainland, it’s a pretty small place
She’s now in Florida
Part of her evolution was just a big open mind
She didn’t want to stay in Tasmania
She moved to Melbourne to go to college at Deakin University Where she did a BS in Food Science Nutrition, and then a MS in Dietetics
This is the little island that sits just south of the mainland, it’s a pretty small place
Where she did a BS in Food Science Nutrition, and then a MS in Dietetics

Tasmania by landmass looks pretty big, but is has a tiny population

The population now is about 500,000
When she grew up in Launceston, it had a population of about 90,000

Holly ran track as a kid

She started track at about age 8 and continued through age 18
She ran track in both high school and college
She was finished with track by her 2nd or 3rd year of university This was the point where she had to choose between a sports career or academics
In Australia, there isn’t a lot of opportunity for females to have a successful career in sports Maybe now that social media has grown females may have more opportunity
Academics seemed like her only option at the time
This was the point where she had to choose between a sports career or academics
Maybe now that social media has grown females may have more opportunity

What did she run in track?

She was a sprinter
She ran the 100 meters, long jump, and triple jump

“ Lots of fast twitch, anything explosive and powerful and short ”‒ Holly Baxter

Did she lift weights in high school?

She started lifting weights in probably grade 11
That was when she was part of the Tasmanian Institute of Sports
Her coach at the time, Peter Fortune, was also the coach of Olympic 400 meter runner, Kathy Freeman She won the gold medal in the 2000 Olympics, and everybody loved her
Holly worked with Peter Fortune and that’s where she had a lot of her experience in track sprinting
She won the gold medal in the 2000 Olympics, and everybody loved her

Holly’s struggle with depression and an eating disorder [4:30]

Holly got into sport because of her desire for control over her nutrition
She has only recently overcome a 15 year eating disorder
She struggled with anorexia for a short time and went on to binge eating and bulimia
Even before she thought about going off to college, she was in the depths of that disorder
She was also struggling a lot with depression
At age 16 she had already attempted suicide twice
She was hospitalized for a good part of grade 11
Looking back at that now, it’s really sad She just didn’t have the support or mentors
This escalated into adulthood and only very recently has she started to work on her mental health
A lot of her advances have come as she has developed a sense of purpose in life And ultimately finding happiness
She just didn’t have the support or mentors
And ultimately finding happiness

When her eating disorder began, did that proceed to depression or were the two intertwined, hand in hand?

They came on simultaneously for multiple reasons
Her mother was an incredible woman, she basically raised Holly and her sister She has just 1 sibling, a younger sister
Her dad was around but was a very hard worker, very disciplined and focused on his career So she and her sister were kind of invisible to him
Her mom had grown up in a similar situation where her mother was completely absent She grew up having to do it all for herself She was also into athletics
Holly’s relationship with her mother was strained She felt her mom wanted to control her, protect her This created a lot of friction Up until she was 10 years old, she wasn’t allowed to have a sleepover at a friend’s without there being serious arguments
She had a lot of hostility and confrontation growing up
She has just 1 sibling, a younger sister
So she and her sister were kind of invisible to him
She grew up having to do it all for herself
She was also into athletics
She felt her mom wanted to control her, protect her
This created a lot of friction
Up until she was 10 years old, she wasn’t allowed to have a sleepover at a friend’s without there being serious arguments

In 10th grade was she 15? Was the focus before that age on just academics and sports?

Yes
She did dance (tap, jazz, and ballet) and music (piano, guitar, and drums)
She was into basketball and athletics
She did a lot of activities
The only kind of praise and recognition or feeling of being cared for came from excelling at something If she came home from school with really good grades, this was the only time she would get, “ Oh wow. We really love you ” or “ Well done ”
She knows her mom loves her, but how people communicate is so important
If she came home from school with really good grades, this was the only time she would get, “ Oh wow. We really love you ” or “ Well done ”

She grew up with the idea that unless she was the best at something, or did everything and excelled at everything, she didn’t really have value as a human

This is one aspect of where the depression and eating disorder came from
She also experienced some sexual trauma around that age
There were 2 instances, and it happened with people she really respected and trusted
That coupled with a toxic home environment She felt she couldn’t go to her parents She had a fear of being judged from the community Everything was about keeping up with appearances
She tried to talk to her mom about what happened But instead of having her ask, “ Are you okay? Talk to me ” Her mom was more like, “ Well, what did you do to deserve that? Well, what were you wearing? How were you dressed? What kind of makeup did you have on? ”
He mom didn’t know how to support her
Her mom tried to look for therapy, but Holly was so far down the rabbit hole of depression and feeling like a lost cause that nothing worked Behavioral therapy was ineffective Medication actually made things significantly worse, so consequently she came off that
She felt she couldn’t go to her parents
She had a fear of being judged from the community
Everything was about keeping up with appearances
But instead of having her ask, “ Are you okay? Talk to me ”
Her mom was more like, “ Well, what did you do to deserve that? Well, what were you wearing? How were you dressed? What kind of makeup did you have on? ”
Behavioral therapy was ineffective
Medication actually made things significantly worse, so consequently she came off that

Holly’s struggle with bulimia [9:30]

Do you have a sense of how often eating disorders afflict young women versus young men?

The prevalence is a lot greater in females than males
But in the last 10 years it’s increasing in young boys
Holly recalls something on the order of 60% of high school girls in the US have reported to struggle with low confidence and a negative sense of self and body image
The prevalence of eating disorders is lower but but it’s still scarily high, see the figure below
Eating disorders in younger children is also higher than it should be

Figure 1. Prevalence of eating disorders in the US by age . Image credit: JAMA Network 2019

Holly mentioned it started first with anorexia, before binging and purging. Did she gain a sense of control by limiting what you were eating?

In the short-term, did this satisfy something inside you?

It did
Maybe because she was so athletic
She thinks back to the amount of training she was doing With in-school sports Hours of practice after school, 6 days a week and maybe on Sunday
With these energy demands she couldn’t sustain the restriction
She was frustrated with how famished and hungry she was
She didn’t connect the dots and struggled with the question, “ Why can’t I control what I put in my body? ” She didn’t know anything about appetite regulating hormones Or the energy requirements for the sports she was doing
She would act out these behaviors of binge eating and then purging It was just constant There was a point where it was probably every day of the week for 5 years Which is terrifying to think about considering the risks
It slowed down when she got to university Probably because she had to work 3 jobs and the requirements for study gave her less opportunity to do that
With in-school sports
Hours of practice after school, 6 days a week and maybe on Sunday
She didn’t know anything about appetite regulating hormones
Or the energy requirements for the sports she was doing
It was just constant
There was a point where it was probably every day of the week for 5 years Which is terrifying to think about considering the risks
Which is terrifying to think about considering the risks
Probably because she had to work 3 jobs and the requirements for study gave her less opportunity to do that

“ I just remember feeling I wanted to be able to control things, but at the same token, I had no control, because my body was doing what it’s meant to do, which is to protect you from starvation, essentially ”‒ Holly Baxter

Complications associated with bulimia

With the constant flow of acidity up and down the esophagus, did she have any issues with her teeth? Any electrolyte abnormalities?

Interestingly, no
She doesn’t know about electrolyte abnormalities because she never had routine blood work back then That was not something she prioritized as a young, naive student
Thankfully she never had any esophageal erosion for the acid She thinks a risk for developing cancers of the throat and olfactory It’s a scary thought
That was not something she prioritized as a young, naive student
She thinks a risk for developing cancers of the throat and olfactory
It’s a scary thought

How did this progress? Did anybody in her life recognize this was going on?

No
Holly moved away for college, her family wasn’t in the same state and they didn’t travel to see her very often
She didn’t have the family support She never had a close relationship with her sister They just moved in different directions in life She didn’t have any kind of relationship with her father So she didn’t have anyone to go to for guidance
None of her boyfriends knew this was happening Out of shame, she may have communicated it to 1 boyfriend
She thinks about the stigma associated with mental health issues
To have depression and also to have an eating disorder was hard for her as a perfectionist, high achiever, driven woman
She never had a close relationship with her sister
They just moved in different directions in life
She didn’t have any kind of relationship with her father
So she didn’t have anyone to go to for guidance
Out of shame, she may have communicated it to 1 boyfriend

“ There was no way I wanted to share this weakness ”‒ Holly Baxter

She was terrified to tell anybody Especially given she was educated She had done a bachelor’s in Food science and a master’s in Nutrition
She felt she should be able to control this
She suffered in silence, and it probably went on for 10 years
Especially given she was educated
She had done a bachelor’s in Food science and a master’s in Nutrition

Was she training during that time? Did she look as fit as you do today?

Peter notes that part of the stereotype of someone with an eating disorder we picture someone with anorexia as incredibly thin Conversely, with bulimia, we usually think of someone whose a little overweight
Holly was right in the middle
Probably because of the amount of activity she was doing, it prevented her from being anorexic
She never got to the point where she was dangerously low body weight
She was a healthy weight, still training for track, still sprinting
She had above average muscularity
She remembers Les Mills classes at the gym Combat class or kickboxing or body pump
She was doing some light resistance training
Her interest in body building didn’t start until much later after college
She thinks the research on people who suffer with binging disorder and bulimia, they tend to be normal weight to above normal weight
Conversely, with bulimia, we usually think of someone whose a little overweight
Combat class or kickboxing or body pump

She was right in the normal, no one would have known

Holly attempted suicide at 16. How was this not a wake up call to her parents?

It was, but this was also really disappointing and just enhanced the sadness
Just to outline how incapable her father was of communicating, and he’s not a bad person He lost his mom to breast cancer at age 13 He was raised by an alcoholic father with 4 brothers and was beaten
She remembers her mom being very upset when it happened
Her dad came into her room and told her, “ You’re a fucking idiot ” and then walked out To have somebody who you thought loved and cared about you say that… He was never somebody that would have had a clue where to start
Her mother was overbearing and that was the problem, even though Holly knew she was trying to help
This in combination with the sexual assaults and some things her coach said about her training led to the eating disorder
Her mom wanted to do everything for her, live vicariously through her sports She understands and has forgiven her
Her mom tried to get her in tough with the right health professionals But the lack of knowledge, resources and not having good connections… she just didn’t have the tools
It was about that time that she went away to college
So the ability of her mom to control and manage what she did with her health was a lot harder
In some ways, Holly is really grateful that she stepped away from Tasmania and took on opportunities that didn’t require her mom’s support
Moving away and stepping out from that control allowed her to learn life skills How to step out and take risks How to not be afraid of failure
He lost his mom to breast cancer at age 13
He was raised by an alcoholic father with 4 brothers and was beaten
To have somebody who you thought loved and cared about you say that…
He was never somebody that would have had a clue where to start
She understands and has forgiven her
But the lack of knowledge, resources and not having good connections… she just didn’t have the tools
How to step out and take risks
How to not be afraid of failure

Reflecting on her eating disorder, body image, and a wake up call [18:15]

When you look back, did your self image of your body seem inaccurate with what you know now?

Does everyone with an eating disorder also have a skewed view of their body image?

Or can the eating disorder simply be a controlled tool unrelated to body image?

Holly thinks it’s dysfunctional thoughts

She thinks it really depends on the individual
Each eating disorder is slightly different in its own way
For her, it wasn’t body image she was concerned about, it was control
It became obsessive compulsive for some things
Anytime she felt stressed, anxious, etc, the desire to control came back
She crafted an environment that shielded her from stresses, potential triggers so she could live in control, and that gave her comfort
Becoming an adult is a reality check You have to be flexible and noble and pivot and learn to adapt under stress
She felt like her life was extremely stressful for a lot of reasons
You have to be flexible and noble and pivot and learn to adapt under stress

“ But I just had no coping skills ”‒ Holly Baxter

It didn’t start as a negative body image. It was simply the desire for control.

As she became more involved in sports, her physique did change
She started to connect the dots with her athletic performance, superior physique, low body fat, more muscle
Then the praise she would get externally from people became the obsession

She became obsessed with how she looked, and that was where she found her self-worth

That was where I felt valued and appreciated, and respected
And for a good part of her life, it became her identity, and that just fueled the disorder

How do you break that cycle

Through a lot of hard work and regular therapy Once every 6 weeks is not enough
When her mom got her into therapy at age 16, she saw a therapist once every 6 weeks She had to travel from her home in Launceston to Hobart (a 2.5 hour drive) She saw a specialist who worked with women’s health issues, eating disorders and nutrition She remembers this as special time with her mom, feeling that her mom cares Otherwise she never felt like anyone cared about her outside of credentials
Once every 6 weeks is not enough
She had to travel from her home in Launceston to Hobart (a 2.5 hour drive)
She saw a specialist who worked with women’s health issues, eating disorders and nutrition
She remembers this as special time with her mom, feeling that her mom cares
Otherwise she never felt like anyone cared about her outside of credentials

In her post-college life, did she think she had things under control, or did she think of it as a dirty little secret that was totally out of control?

It came in waves, like any condition that works along a spectrum
She had periods where she felt like she was managing the symptoms and feelings
But as soon as things became stressful, or if she had extra assignments due, or if she needed to work 2 full weekends back to back for financial reasons She just lost it and coped with extreme binging, purging
She just lost it and coped with extreme binging, purging

“ Secret eating was really something that I struggled with ”‒ Holly Baxter

She would go out for dinner with friends and try to enjoy herself and partake in the food But because she would restrict so aggressively, anytime she went outside of her 4 walls of comfort foods and things on her list of okay to eat, she was terrified
She had no control to slow down her eating She ate extremely fast
Many of her longtime friends as adults have said to her, “Y eah, you really eat fast, but I’ve noticed a massive change for the last few years ”
She would eat extremely quickly and almost binge eat
Then she would order something else to go with the idea of having it tomorrow But she would just go home and binge eat more
But because she would restrict so aggressively, anytime she went outside of her 4 walls of comfort foods and things on her list of okay to eat, she was terrified
She ate extremely fast
But she would just go home and binge eat more

“ It was absolutely spiraled out of control…. The only way I knew how to manage stress was to eat ”‒ Holly Baxter

And this completely countered her goals for sports and training

What was the wakeup call?

It probably wasn’t until she was 25, she had finished her schooling in Melbourne and moved to the Gold Coast where she opened her own business
She had a new clinical practice 50% of her work week was in-person training
She had discovered her love for resistance training
Her business was crazy busy
She began to have some success in the bodybuilding space
She got to a point where her anxiety was so hard She didn’t know what anxiety was and couldn’t put a word to the feeling she had, which sounds silly
She was stressed with the amount of work she had to do and got to the point in her business where she was experiencing some burnout
That was the point when she took herself to a therapist
She ended up admitting herself to rehab She traveled back to Melbourne to a very well known rehabilitation therapy place in country Victoria This incorporated counseling, yoga practices, different types of relaxation techniques One of the owners worked through nutrition It was an intense 7-day stay
50% of her work week was in-person training
She didn’t know what anxiety was and couldn’t put a word to the feeling she had, which sounds silly
She traveled back to Melbourne to a very well known rehabilitation therapy place in country Victoria
This incorporated counseling, yoga practices, different types of relaxation techniques
One of the owners worked through nutrition
It was an intense 7-day stay

How difficult was it for her to make the decision to shut down work for 7 days ?

Terrifying
The therapy was quite expensive, but it was worth it

Road to recovery: therapy, meditation, self-compassion, and a breakthrough [27:45]

How much impact did that 7 days of inpatient rehab have on you?

Not as much as she would have hoped
To think anything that short in duration is going to cure you is foolish

But, it opened her eyes to the benefits of relaxation, meditation, and the value of communication and being transparent and open

These were all behaviors that she was not very good at
For the period 10 years prior to this, she was very closed off, very reserved and private She didn’t share many things
She saw the value in what it’s like to work through issues rather than suppress them
She didn’t share many things

Once she moved to America she got herself into weekly therapy… it got her on the right path

She’s had a therapy session every week since 2016 She’s only missed maybe 20 weeks through travel and business
She’s only missed maybe 20 weeks through travel and business

What were the breakthroughs that occurred with that type of more consistent therapy?

It made her accountable
It made her speak, talk, and reflect back on her past Which she had never done She had never given 2 thoughts about her upbringing So much of what she experienced was bottled up in past traumas and different styles of communication
She gained appreciation and understanding of why she felt the way she did This was incredibly valuable
She started discussing, “ What are some of the dysfunctions in these beliefs? ” She started deconstructing different sets of thoughts And talked about how they might look differently for a healthy mind
This was a time of a lot of self development, reading, and finding herself spiritually
Which she had never done
She had never given 2 thoughts about her upbringing
So much of what she experienced was bottled up in past traumas and different styles of communication
This was incredibly valuable
She started deconstructing different sets of thoughts
And talked about how they might look differently for a healthy mind

It really helped her to understand that she was enough as a human, she was loved, despite her accolades and sports accomplishments

She realized she didn’t need to keep proving herself to all the people in her life This was a huge weight lifted off her shoulders
This was a huge weight lifted off her shoulders

Holly’s spiritual awakening

She had only been to church once before With a boyfriend whose family was Christian
Her experience with religion was not negative
She grew up agnostic
She went to a progressive, non-denominational church The pastor was incredible Each week, every message was so relatable She got a lot of good information out of it
With a boyfriend whose family was Christian
The pastor was incredible
Each week, every message was so relatable
She got a lot of good information out of it

“ This is what I’ve been missing my whole life ”‒ Holly Baxter

For a long time she felt like she didn’t have a purpose
Part of her decision to keep moving and traveling was to find what was missing She thought, maybe it will be better here Maybe the people will be different and she would resonate with them better
She thought, maybe it will be better here
Maybe the people will be different and she would resonate with them better

But it was something inside her that was missing, and going to church and reading was one thing that changed her life

Since then, she’s never been happier

Peter’s takeaway :

There are 2 things here that are important for anybody struggling
1 – Improvements don’t happen quickly And it’s non-linear The 7 day intensive rehab helped but not as much as she needed It was years until she was in weekly therapy
When he thinks of his addictions and struggles
Let’s pick alcohol as an easy example for people to identify with They say an alcoholic is always an alcoholic It’s just a question of if you’re in recovery or not If an alcoholic commits to no longer drinking, they still need to be mindful of their behaviors, and still need to be cognitive of the fact that they can slip back into drinking That doesn’t mean they can’t be around people who are drinking, but they have to understand themselves and understand those limits
Peter know what his addictions are and how they need to be managed They’re always there You’re in recovery
And it’s non-linear
The 7 day intensive rehab helped but not as much as she needed
It was years until she was in weekly therapy
They say an alcoholic is always an alcoholic
It’s just a question of if you’re in recovery or not
If an alcoholic commits to no longer drinking, they still need to be mindful of their behaviors, and still need to be cognitive of the fact that they can slip back into drinking
That doesn’t mean they can’t be around people who are drinking, but they have to understand themselves and understand those limits
They’re always there
You’re in recovery

“ I don’t think that anybody truly recovers, like you said, once an addict, always an addict .”‒ Holly Baxter

Holly points out with alcohol, there are physiological symptoms that need to be managed because of the chemical dependence

But for something psychological, there is a strong need for your desire to change and improve

It wasn’t until she committed to herself to never purge again (until she really believed that), that she never purged again
This happened during a contest prep, one of the most difficult things you could ever do She was getting extremely lean The struggle with trying to control your body and it trying to control you She was sitting on her bathroom floor, bawling, emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted She remembers saying, “ You’re not going to do this anymore ” That’s when things started to change
She wasn’t going to do this anymore She talked about it with her therapist She wasn’t going to overcompensate with activity If she didn’t purge she would feel guilty and anxious if she didn’t go and do a 10 K run
She was getting extremely lean
The struggle with trying to control your body and it trying to control you
She was sitting on her bathroom floor, bawling, emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted
She remembers saying, “ You’re not going to do this anymore ”
That’s when things started to change
She talked about it with her therapist
She wasn’t going to overcompensate with activity If she didn’t purge she would feel guilty and anxious if she didn’t go and do a 10 K run
If she didn’t purge she would feel guilty and anxious if she didn’t go and do a 10 K run

Once she didn’t have these outlets, it forced her to get real with her intention for eating

It forced her to be mindful, to slow down, to become present with her meals and really listen to what her body was saying
This is really hard, because if you’ve restrained from certain foods, alcohol, or drugs for a long period of time, all you do is think about that thing
She would restrict ice cream, cookies, fun cereals, normal foods She just couldn’t control herself around them anymore It was difficult because she felt like she was going crazy
Years into therapy she asked her therapist, “ Why do I still want to eat the entire tub of ice cream? I feel like I can’t just make myself one serving. I want to eat the whole thing. ” It’s because she restricted for 10 years Her therapist said, “ What makes you think that you’re going to cure this desire overnight when it’s been something that you’ve built a habit that’s ingrained over your lifetime with this disorder? ”
After this she started having a little more compassion for herself and forgiveness Reducing the amount of judgment she had for herself
She just couldn’t control herself around them anymore
It was difficult because she felt like she was going crazy
It’s because she restricted for 10 years
Her therapist said, “ What makes you think that you’re going to cure this desire overnight when it’s been something that you’ve built a habit that’s ingrained over your lifetime with this disorder? ”
Reducing the amount of judgment she had for herself

Once she started being kinder to herself, she started to make more progress

She hated the outcome of going through that initial transformation because she gained so much weight
At this point she hadn’t really tackled the underlying cause of why
She was just trying to stop the binging and purging
It made her really uncomfortable to see her weight exceed 70 kg (154 lbs) She’s now 63 kg (139 lb) At her peak during recovery she was 75 kg (154 lbs)
She’s now 63 kg (139 lb)
At her peak during recovery she was 75 kg (154 lbs)

Was the therapeutic instruction, “ You need to sit in the discomfort of this weight gain? ”

Yes
This was 1 of the first strategies she had to work through for her anxiety
At this point she had also developed a social anxiety
Holly recalls, “ It was just like the lid had been taken off and all these things were immersing themselves in front of me, and I had no idea how to manage them”
Now part of that process was discussing the feelings and starting to identify the new feeling she had, now that she’d gained weight
This led to horrible thoughts about herself I feel horrible I’m disgusting This is so unhealthy I hate myself
Around this time her therapist asked her, “ What would you say to a client? ” Holly was a practicing dietician and had been for 10+ years
She had to think about what she would say to a client if they said that
This led her to start treating herself like she would her clients
I feel horrible
I’m disgusting
This is so unhealthy
I hate myself
Holly was a practicing dietician and had been for 10+ years

“ There was a big shift then, just that compassion that I had for myself ”‒ Holly Baxter

A shift in thinking, the Rick Elias Test

Peter calls this the Ric Elias test after his friend who describes it as even one step further‒ “ What would you say to your best friend if they were saying these things, if they were in this situation? ” It’s amazing how much this totally changes and softens the tone
Holly agrees and the first thing that springs to her mind is, “ But what about your physical appearance? ” What does friendship have to do with your physical appearance? Nothing She realized she didn’t have any logical reasoning for believing this was true Clients would say they want to lose weight before a holiday and they catch up with old friends they haven’t seen in a long time or before a wedding or some other special event She asked them, “ Do you think you wouldn’t be invited if you were 10 kg (22 lb) heavier? ” Those relationships aren’t built on your aesthetic, they’re built on your character So when Holly started talking to herself that way, she realized she can still have fun and it has nothing to do with the weight on the scale or her body fat percentage
It’s amazing how much this totally changes and softens the tone
What does friendship have to do with your physical appearance? Nothing
She realized she didn’t have any logical reasoning for believing this was true
Clients would say they want to lose weight before a holiday and they catch up with old friends they haven’t seen in a long time or before a wedding or some other special event
She asked them, “ Do you think you wouldn’t be invited if you were 10 kg (22 lb) heavier? ”
Those relationships aren’t built on your aesthetic, they’re built on your character
So when Holly started talking to herself that way, she realized she can still have fun and it has nothing to do with the weight on the scale or her body fat percentage

The effect of competitive bodybuilding on women [39:00]

What Peter finds so interesting about her story and so hard to reconcile is her passion for bodybuilding as a hobby In many ways it’s the pinnacle of exercise and nutrition as it pertains to aesthetics And she chose to do it in the drug-free category She doesn’t get to rely on any additional biochemistry She just has to do it through training and nutrition
It’s been a really long journey for Holly
There was a point a few years ago where she questioned her decisions to remain a coach and to be in the nutrition and exercise space because of the hypocrisy she felt with what she was coaching
For the 1st 10 years of her practice she believed she needed to be lean To be successful in business, to support others, she believed she needed to not only talk the talk, but walk the walk She felt uncomfortable that whole time
In many ways it’s the pinnacle of exercise and nutrition as it pertains to aesthetics
And she chose to do it in the drug-free category She doesn’t get to rely on any additional biochemistry She just has to do it through training and nutrition
She doesn’t get to rely on any additional biochemistry
She just has to do it through training and nutrition
To be successful in business, to support others, she believed she needed to not only talk the talk, but walk the walk
She felt uncomfortable that whole time

What body fat is she on stage?

She competed in figure for IFBB , which is non-drug tested federation Those girls are 10% body fat
Now she competes in the fitness category for a different federation It’s a slightly smaller body, but still very muscular and very lean She probably gets down to 10-11% body fat
Those girls are 10% body fat
It’s a slightly smaller body, but still very muscular and very lean
She probably gets down to 10-11% body fat

At 10-11% body fat, does your menstrual cycle still continue?

For the majority of her competition history, it would completely stop
For about 5 years she didn’t have a period That was even with the return of calories back to a normal amount and the return of body fat back to normal, healthy levels She attributes it to the years of binging and purging
A lot of people will ask if it is a healthy sport, if it’s dangerous to get that lean And it depends There are a lot of females in the sport that don’t have a desire for a family, so fertility isn’t an issue
Peter notes, from an evolutionary standpoint, evolution has 1 purpose, to procreate, and she wasn’t fit enough to do this
Holly notes, “ It’s not a great thing for females to be that lean. We’re not meant to be that lean .”
Holly points out that all women don’t lose their menstrual cycle when they compete, but it does become irregular
In her last competition she was getting a cycle every 2 weeks for about 16 weeks of contest prep, which was really bizarre
It took her a few years to recover her period through a process of reverse dieting
A recovery diet allowed her to gain some body fat and have an off season where she got a good amount of calories to fuel her body to the point where her hormones were functioning as they should
But 50% of women do completely lose their cycle
That was even with the return of calories back to a normal amount and the return of body fat back to normal, healthy levels
She attributes it to the years of binging and purging
And it depends
There are a lot of females in the sport that don’t have a desire for a family, so fertility isn’t an issue

If you were to go back in time and talk to yourself when you were 18, would you tell yourself “ Just stay away from the fitness industry. Stay away from body building. Get a degree in economics or business, something like that? ”

Even though you’ve ended up on a path to recovery, do you feel that you were just flying too close to the sun all of this time?

She’s asked herself this question a lot
She is in a place right now where she’s good with herself wherever she is in the spectrum of body fat and in competition (on season/ off season)
The things that would limit her from getting to the point of obesity or an unhealthy body weight would be extreme habits Taking anything to the limits where you’re just careless with food and exercise
She doesn’t think she would allow herself to get to that place because it wouldn’t feel good anymore
She really tries to be conscious of What makes you feel happy What is good for your body How do you feel best Where do you perform best How do you think and function best
Taking anything to the limits where you’re just careless with food and exercise
What makes you feel happy
What is good for your body
How do you feel best
Where do you perform best
How do you think and function best

“ A lot of people are not doing the work that is required to shift the why” ‒ Holly Baxter

This is really important for people that are moving into the space of body building

Holly’s competition prep and how she guides her clients wanting to improve their physique [46:45]

A walk through the training and the nutrition for the entire prep for a competition

Holly had a contest a couple weeks ago
6-months leading up to the contest you have a bulk building phase, then a cutting phase, and then a recovery diet phase
She is competing at the highest level of professional bodybuilding competition, world federation

But for someone listening, say a woman who wants to look her best at her wedding and wants to do it in a way that’s not harmful

The process is no different for professional athletes versus your stay at home mom who wants to look good for a girls trip or a wedding
Holly begins with the goal, “ What do you ideally want to look like? ” Sometimes it’s health goals as well But the majority of people coming to her are looking to change their physique
A lot of women are terrified of getting too bulky
The approach comes down to the individual’s definition of what’s bulky to them
Most of her clients don’t think she’s too bulky
Sometimes it’s health goals as well
But the majority of people coming to her are looking to change their physique

Figure 2. Holly Baxter . Image credit: HB Nutrition

A different physique ideal exists for an endurance athlete versus somebody that very anaerobic, so she wants to identify the client’s ideal first
It’s unlikely that women will get to the point where they look like a female bodybuilder These things don’t happen naturally Her physique isn’t obtained without great genetics, extreme training, and perfect nutrition
It’s taken her 7 years of consistent nutrition and training to get to her level of muscularity She probably missed less than 10 weeks a year of training in the past 10 years
You can’t grow muscle like this without some serious consistency
These things don’t happen naturally
Her physique isn’t obtained without great genetics, extreme training, and perfect nutrition
She probably missed less than 10 weeks a year of training in the past 10 years

How does Holly help clients identify their goals?

She is pretty granular even compared to their other coaches but the principles at the end of the day are the same
To get a better understanding of a client’s goals, she will often ask them, “ Is there somebody that you follow on social media or that you’ve seen in magazines that you really like their physique? ”
She plots a trajectory based on their scale weight and their current body fat % (determined by a DEXA scan ) See AMA #40 for more on DEXA scans
See AMA #40 for more on DEXA scans

What are the limits for a woman who wants to gain muscle?

It’s a little lower than for males

In and 8-week period natural athletes were able to acquire somewhere under 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of fat-free mass

This includes increases in skeletal tissue and other things like water
Peter notes this is his record, in his best year he gained 13 lbs of fat-free mass in 12 months

Is this the same for men and women?

It will depend on the individual and how much time they are willing to invest in this goal
It comes down to training volume and diet

What is the largest amount of lean mass Holly has put on in 1 year?

She doesn’t know about 1 year, but between 2 competitions she put on about 6 kg (13 lbs) The first competition was at the beginning of the year and the second one towards the end of the last quarter This was when she was going to the University of South Florida She was doing BMR testing and muscle fitness testing These are fairly accurate methods of determining hypertrophy This blew her mind, but then she does put on muscle very easily There may be a genetic component to that She was also very regimented with training During this time she also allowed herself to put on a lot of body fat She was also in a position where she could step back from other obligations and priorities to focus on this
The first competition was at the beginning of the year and the second one towards the end of the last quarter
This was when she was going to the University of South Florida
She was doing BMR testing and muscle fitness testing These are fairly accurate methods of determining hypertrophy
This blew her mind, but then she does put on muscle very easily There may be a genetic component to that
She was also very regimented with training
During this time she also allowed herself to put on a lot of body fat
She was also in a position where she could step back from other obligations and priorities to focus on this
These are fairly accurate methods of determining hypertrophy
There may be a genetic component to that

With 6 kg of lean tissue, how much fat tissue was gained?

Probably 30%, so 2-2.5 kg (4-5 lbs)
Her body fat went up a little as she puto n a lot more lean mass
Peter remarks, “ That’s kind of amazing… If a guy made that change drug-free, that would be considered impressive ”
Let’s just posit that Holly has great genetics It gives us a range that for women with lesser genetics, they might be able to do half of that in a year They might be able to put on 3 kg (6-7 lb)
It gives us a range that for women with lesser genetics, they might be able to do half of that in a year
They might be able to put on 3 kg (6-7 lb)

Holly’s training for gaining this amount of lean mass

Holly recalls going through a training block of progressive overloading The first week of this cycle might have been 3 sets of everything on her list of 6-7 exercises By week 6, she would be pushing 5 working hard sets, high intensity training REPs (rate of perceived exertion) of 8-9 of her 1st 3 exercises, then 4 of everything else
The first week of this cycle might have been 3 sets of everything on her list of 6-7 exercises
By week 6, she would be pushing 5 working hard sets, high intensity training REPs (rate of perceived exertion) of 8-9 of her 1st 3 exercises, then 4 of everything else
REPs (rate of perceived exertion) of 8-9 of her 1st 3 exercises, then 4 of everything else

“ The volume I was getting up to was insane ”‒ Holly Baxter

How many hours was Holly spending in the gym at the beginning of the build phase versus the end?

She would hit it hard pretty quickly, early on
She had a bit more of a reactive style to deloads Normally she would plan intentional deloads
The whole purpose of this build was to get as much muscle on her as possible in a very short timeframe
The volume probably went up by 50% within the first 12 weeks and then continued to grow
Normally she would plan intentional deloads

The time she would spend in the gym varied from 90 minutes in the earlier part of that build phase all the way to 2.5 hours a day

She was doing 5 session a week; it was a big commitment
She was doing minimal cardio Cardio was not part of the equation But she hit a daily step target of 10,000 steps
So it was about 15 hours in the gym per week
Cardio was not part of the equation
But she hit a daily step target of 10,000 steps

Training principles for muscle hypertrophy [57:00]

Explain what RPE is; this is an important concept as we talk about resistance training

RPE stands for a rate of perceived exertion
It’s a measure of training intensity
And training intensity is one of the principles that needs to be increased over your training lifespan in order to facilitate hypertrophy
Holly reflects back on her early training days and she didn’t even have a training RPE There was no training intensity
Another measure which she uses on workout builder programs is the RIR (repetitions in reserve) An RIR of 3 would mean that you’ve got three repetitions in reserve all the way up to an RIR of 0 (where you’re hitting failure) At a RIR of 0, whatever weight or load you select for your lift, you are essentially going to your drop
When she first started lifting, the weight was so low, she never challenged herself
She is grateful for the time she spent powerlifting because that style of training threw her into understanding training intensity and what her true strength was There was a lot of carryover to how quickly she was able to select weights for her bodybuilding style of workouts And that advanced her quickly
Peter clarifies, “ Just to make sure I understand, you’re saying when you were younger and you were doing fitness training and even training for track and field, you were never pushing yourself in the weight room. Your RPE was below 5, your RIR was above 5. ” Yes She was never given instruction on training intensity It was simply, do 3 sets of 12
So now when she is in a building phase, when she says RPE 8, this means she stopped when she had only 2 more reps she could have potentially squeezed out RPE 8-9 are near failure sets all the way through
There was no training intensity
An RIR of 3 would mean that you’ve got three repetitions in reserve all the way up to an RIR of 0 (where you’re hitting failure)
At a RIR of 0, whatever weight or load you select for your lift, you are essentially going to your drop
There was a lot of carryover to how quickly she was able to select weights for her bodybuilding style of workouts
And that advanced her quickly
Yes
She was never given instruction on training intensity
It was simply, do 3 sets of 12
RPE 8-9 are near failure sets all the way through

How would she split those among 5 days? Was it a leg day, a push pull day?

1 is exercise specificity You have to be training in a way that is going to get you to the desired outcome In building muscle, you chose the muscle groups that you want to build in that timeframe
For her it was glute hypertrophy This is the main area that most women want to improve It has a lot of benefits from normal day-to-day activities (bending down, squatting) to improving strength across all sports
She focused a lot on glute hypertrophy and shoulder hypertrophy She wanted to create the cap shoulders and the illusion of a narrower waist
Thinking back to that build, most of the training she was doing was lower body
You have to be training in a way that is going to get you to the desired outcome
In building muscle, you chose the muscle groups that you want to build in that timeframe
This is the main area that most women want to improve
It has a lot of benefits from normal day-to-day activities (bending down, squatting) to improving strength across all sports
She wanted to create the cap shoulders and the illusion of a narrower waist

She did 4 lower body sessions per week and 1 upper body session, it sounds crazy

For those four lower body sessions, was she still dividing the legs up or was she hitting the same muscles of the legs all 4 days?

Her programs varied
She would triage to give her body the recovery it needed It was a very reactive style of deload
She would start on Monday doing a quad, hamstring, glute, calf, quad, hamstring
Her second day might look like‒ glute, hamstring, quad Or she would prioritize the muscle groups she wanted to build
Then she would have a rest day, because 2 days of back-to-back leg days is pretty intense
Then she would probably incorporate an upper body session to give herself a second day of complete rest for her legs.
She would finish out the week by doing a Friday session of lower body
Then 2 days off, come back in and train on a Sunday, another lower body session
Holly points out, “ I would never do that for somebody that was brand new to training. That volume would be radically reduced .”
It was a very reactive style of deload
Or she would prioritize the muscle groups she wanted to build

Training advice for an inexperienced person wanting to build muscle [1:01:30]

Training for a person who has some exercise background

Say they go to OrangeTheory Fitness twice a week
They’re a relatively active person, but they don’t have any power lifting experience
They don’t know the difference between RPE 9 and RPE 5
But they still have this ambition of building, of putting on 5 lbs of muscle in the next year and losing 3 lbs of fat
1 find somebody that can be evidence-based with you in the gym one-on-one

There is so much value in spending one-on-one time with someone that has more knowledge than you in that space

This helps with developing optimal training techniques, developing the right movement pathways
Another plus is if you can find somebody that does powerlifting or has done bodybuilding and powerlifting There’s not a lot of these people out there
There’s not a lot of these people out there

Incorporating that evidence-based approach with experience with women and powerlifting and bodybuilding, that’s the perfect ideal

What is different about experience with women?

You have to connect with the person you’re working with
A male who is extremely experienced in all of those things can be great
But it helps to have gone through different body image issues To have an understanding and appreciation for body dysmorphia To have an appreciation for the menstrual cycle and the implications it can have on strength, performance, mood, your psychological state, etc
Holly thinks women tend to do better with female trainers, but they are harder to come by
To have an understanding and appreciation for body dysmorphia
To have an appreciation for the menstrual cycle and the implications it can have on strength, performance, mood, your psychological state, etc

Training program for a hypothetical woman wanting to add lean muscle and lose body fat [1:04:15]

Training program for a hypothetical woman wanting to gain 5 lbs of muscle and lose 5 lbs of fat in a year :

So their weight remains the same
But within 1 year they want their body composition to change dramatically
Holly’s first question is, “ What realistically can we gain in an 8 month timeframe? ”

8 months is the period of time you want to build up

If this is somebody that has not done a whole lot of resistance training, begin with a fairly low training volume

Week 1

Start by selecting the muscle groups and the exercises that target the areas they want to build, and we would progressively overload that training
So, it might start with 1 working set for every exercise in week 1
Typically she starts with a program that is 30-40 minutes maximum
Do 1-2 warmup sets to get to the working set This will also help with demonstration of technique and understanding the movement pattern
Start with a set of 10 weighted to a RPE of 6-7 This means you’re going to do 10 reps but if your life depended on it you could get to 13-14 reps with the weight you selected
Start by training 3 days a week
Holly notes, “ We’ve got to incorporate the person’s ability to sacrifice time for their training ”
This will also help with demonstration of technique and understanding the movement pattern
This means you’re going to do 10 reps but if your life depended on it you could get to 13-14 reps with the weight you selected

Is it better that she does 1 set of leg extensions, 1 set of leg curls, 1 set of single leg RDL, 1 set of leg press, etc, instead of just doing 5 sets of leg presses?

The idea being 1 set of each would give her the education on this, then next you could build on that You’re learning what exercises target certain muscle groups You’re also minimizing the risk of injury or extreme delayed onset muscle soreness
You’re learning what exercises target certain muscle groups
You’re also minimizing the risk of injury or extreme delayed onset muscle soreness

“ The last thing that you want to do is put together a program that is too difficult and the next day they can’t even walk ”‒ Holly Baxter

We want to have good adherence from the get-go
Diversity in the program is also more interesting

How many days a week are you doing this? And are you mixing upper and lower body on the same day at the beginning?

It doesn’t really matter if you do a lower body or an upper body or a full body training session
The primary driver of how Holly would put together that workout would be training volume
What’s more important is a training program you can stick to

How many weeks are you in that phase?

4-6 weeks
The decision for 4 weeks versus 6 weeks is the person’s ability to adhere to the same program for that amount of time
When Holly started she thought it was extremely boring to do the same program for more than 2-3 weeks Even if it was working
So there’s a lot of personal preference when it come to putting these programs together
Holly writes her programs for 6 weeks She can handle anything for 6 weeks
It’s repetitive but you have somewhere between 3-5 programs depending on the individuals experience level So there is still quite a bit of diversity within a 7-day period
Even if it was working
She can handle anything for 6 weeks
So there is still quite a bit of diversity within a 7-day period

Lower body exercises for a newbie (not a total novice)

Her favorites for compound lifts are always going to be the typical powerlifting movements
Some kind of squat or hinging variation or deadlift The degree of flexibility just with those exercises alone is enormous
There are so many variations of squats Heels elevated squats Smith machine squats Box squats Paused squats Anderson squats
The degree of flexibility just with those exercises alone is enormous
Heels elevated squats
Smith machine squats
Box squats
Paused squats
Anderson squats

If you have a woman who’s never squatted would you start her with a goblet squat, or a back squat to a box squat?

The first thing would be a bodyweight squat
Holly is looking at the movement pattern to begin with before adding load
She typically starts with a barbell, her preference is low bar squatting But this depends on the person’s anatomical makeup A high bar squat might be better suited to an individual who has very short femurs compared to somebody with extremely long femurs (like Holly)
Holly explains, “ For low squatting, and I’m basically leaning over, looking at the ground when I squat, just to clear my hips ” So keeping it basic
But this depends on the person’s anatomical makeup
A high bar squat might be better suited to an individual who has very short femurs compared to somebody with extremely long femurs (like Holly)
So keeping it basic

When you say low, high, you mean the position on the trap?

Yes, position on the back
There are advantages of having a low bar squat if you hold a weight plate right in front of you that’s 20 lbs You can probably do it for a long period of time If you extend your arms out, you won’t be able to hold that 20 lb weight very long
Similar hypothesis when we put the squat bar lower to our center of gravity, we tend to have a little bit more strength and power And that was a big difference for her as somebody that had crazy long levers She was a terrible high bar squatter Her strength went up 50% by shifting to that low bar position because her femurs are so long She also has a long spine, a very long torso So she wants to bring that barbell back closer to her center of gravity So she’s very low on the back
You can probably do it for a long period of time
If you extend your arms out, you won’t be able to hold that 20 lb weight very long
And that was a big difference for her as somebody that had crazy long levers
She was a terrible high bar squatter
Her strength went up 50% by shifting to that low bar position because her femurs are so long She also has a long spine, a very long torso So she wants to bring that barbell back closer to her center of gravity So she’s very low on the back
She also has a long spine, a very long torso
So she wants to bring that barbell back closer to her center of gravity
So she’s very low on the back

Is there any woman you look at and say “ You’re never going to be a powerlifter, it’s not worth the risk, I don’t want you squatting? ”

This would be somebody with serious injuries A history of hip injury or knee injury
But her area of expertise is not in rehabilitation
She normally works in conjunction with a physical therapist or chiropractor
A history of hip injury or knee injury

Do you find women who have never done this kind of intimidated by the idea of that big 45 pound Olympic bar going on their back?

Absolutely
Peter thinks it looks really scary if you’ve not done that before
Holly adds, “ People’s fear is that the bar’s going to come down on top of them ”
When you’re first starting, you’re not going to be loading the bar that heavy, but work with the catch bars on
The Anderson squat is a technique she would incorporate into a new person’s program You basically start with the bar on the catche You start in a low position, a horizontal position at the bottom of the squat The thighs are parallel to the ground The rep is up, down You push up It’s a really empowering exercise that helps build confidence Holly will do that in conjunction with other squat variations It’s such a big movement You’re using multi-joint, big muscle groups
Squats are going to help contribute positively to energy expenditure compared to just doing isolation exercises like triceps and biceps
You basically start with the bar on the catche
You start in a low position, a horizontal position at the bottom of the squat The thighs are parallel to the ground
The rep is up, down You push up
It’s a really empowering exercise that helps build confidence
Holly will do that in conjunction with other squat variations
It’s such a big movement
You’re using multi-joint, big muscle groups
The thighs are parallel to the ground
You push up

Holly rarely programs arms for women anymore

It depends on their goals
If they’re a kayaker or something and need arm strength, she will do it
But for aesthetic reasons alone, when most women get rid of the body fat, they’ve got great arms just by way of muscle engagement during these big compound lifts

What’s your preferred deadlift? How do you think about navigating trap bar, versus traditional, versus sumo?

This depends on the anatomical structure of the individual
People that have exceptionally long arms are extremely good dealifters because they basically don’t have to lean forwards very far to have the bar in their hands
A traditional deadlift is painful for her This is feet together
But Holly notes, “ When I do deadlift, I do sumo because by widening my stance, I can now get lower to the bar and then I don’t have to be so horizontal to get down to reach .”
She has an extremely long spine so her deadlift is ugly Technically it looks disgusting, but she’s doing all the right things A little bit of spinal curvature in a deadlift is okay if you’re activating your core and keeping tight
She prefers a sumo deadlift because it enables her to get closer to the bar and she feels like she’s in a better position to execute
This is feet together
Technically it looks disgusting, but she’s doing all the right things
A little bit of spinal curvature in a deadlift is okay if you’re activating your core and keeping tight

Peter’s takeaway:

Out of the gate, we’re going to take a woman who’s never done these things before and we’re going to program in some getting to know the squat
Getting to know the deadlift
You’re going to also include isolation exercise
You’ll start with the prime movers and the combined hip hinges
And then you’ll move to leg extensions, leg curls

Lower body lifts: Holly’s approach to leg workouts with clients [1:14:00]

Where does split squatting and lunging fit in?

She will typically incorporate at max, 2 large compound multi-joint exercises
Usually the 1st 6-8 sets are your best sets They are working sets You start to have diminishing returns from the volume that’s accrued after those 1st 8 working sets
Holly recommends doing the big movers 1st, isolation/ accessory exercises second
The way she would structure in something like lunges , or leg extensions , or hamstring curls , or calf raises depends on what that person wants to build
They are working sets
You start to have diminishing returns from the volume that’s accrued after those 1st 8 working sets

Looking at the total set number, the minimum dose for hypertrophy is somewhere in the range of 10-15 per muscle group

When you say per muscle group, are you counting quads distinct from hamstrings, distinct from glutes?

Distinct from calves?

Certain movements do use both
So often she will count an exercise for 2 muscle groups
Peter notes, “ A deadlift is going to triple everything. It’s hitting everything. But when you do the leg extension, it only counts for quads .” Leg curls only count for hamstrings Holly agrees
Leg curls only count for hamstrings
Holly agrees

So by the end of this workout we want to have 10-15 boxes checked for each of those muscle groups. What are your favorite exercises for glutes?

She was recently looking at a systematic review on glute hypertrophy using muscle activation as opposed to true muscle thickness testing to measure hypertrophy
Step-ups were as good at glute activation as hip thrusts and squats Particularly some of the horizontal style step-ups or lunges where you’re coming across the body Such as a cross bench step-up where where you are taking the foot down one side and then coming back up There’s a lot of stretch and lengthening taking place in the glute
Good exercises for glute hypertrophy are a hip thrust , a hinge or some sort of bridge, and some kind of abduction An abduction is basically taking your knees out As opposed to adduction , which is bringing them together She’ll find different machines that enable that and also do those on the cables as well with an ankle attachment
Particularly some of the horizontal style step-ups or lunges where you’re coming across the body
Such as a cross bench step-up where where you are taking the foot down one side and then coming back up There’s a lot of stretch and lengthening taking place in the glute
There’s a lot of stretch and lengthening taking place in the glute
An abduction is basically taking your knees out
As opposed to adduction , which is bringing them together
She’ll find different machines that enable that and also do those on the cables as well with an ankle attachment

Peter’s takeaway : Deadlifts, squats, hipthrusters, step-ups, and abduction. That’s a lot. You got to get 10. You don’t have to be doing all of them every time .

Holly adds, as the individual progresses over a 7-day training block, they may be working up to 30 sets on each individual muscle group (for someone who is advanced) They may be able to execute that over a 7-day period because of their training frequency
For a beginner, they may get 10-15 sets with their 3-4 training sessions
But remember, “ There’s a point where we have diminishing returns where the inflammatory response to that training just makes it impossible to continue making progress, in which case we have to deload ”
Peter notes that a lot of what she mentioned is going to hit the quads Certainly the squat, the deadlift to some extent, and the step-up RDL wont, abduction won’t
They may be able to execute that over a 7-day period because of their training frequency
Certainly the squat, the deadlift to some extent, and the step-up
RDL wont, abduction won’t

Will you then add in some dedicated stuff like leg extensions?

Yes, leg extensions are a really simple one Minimal set-up, straight on the machine
She likes different leg press variations and different squat variations that get our knee into a position where there’s far more forward knee travel
There’s a lot of contradictions, she used to hear all the time, “ Don’t put your knee over your toe, it’s dangerous for your knee ”
Now, if someone’s had a history of knee injuries, that’s something that you would want to take very slowly and very progressively
But anything where we can get the knee traveling past the toes So by elevating your heels in something like a barbell squat
Her preference is on a Smith machine because it really controls the movement pattern and you only go forward Just so people know, the Smith machine is the squat bar that has the hooks on it that’s in tracks; the path is vertical and it’s controlled perfectly
There is also foot positioning on the leg press You’re looking to have at the bottom of the movement where your quads are in a lengthened position, you want to have lots of forward knee travel She won’t be specific in where you should put your feet because feet placement honestly depends on the machine that you’ve got access to She’s had some where she’s had to put her feet up quite high because of the movement plane It’s less where the feet go and it’s more where the knees and toes are in relation to each other in the bottom position
You to work to your level of comfort in getting knees over your toes in the leg press and that’s going to maximize quad development And obviously you’re going to work the back of the leg in the opposite position
There are a lot of benefits to doing single leg work too This helps with imbalances
Holly was doing some single leg squats, just sitting to a box, then standing on the box and going to the floor It’s very easy with lots of repeat training, lots of repeating the same movements where we have a bit of a discrepancy
She likes to incorporate at least 1 single leg exercise for every session
If you start adding too many single, all-leg movements, your program will end up extremely long So that’s real consideration
Minimal set-up, straight on the machine
So by elevating your heels in something like a barbell squat
Just so people know, the Smith machine is the squat bar that has the hooks on it that’s in tracks; the path is vertical and it’s controlled perfectly
You’re looking to have at the bottom of the movement where your quads are in a lengthened position, you want to have lots of forward knee travel
She won’t be specific in where you should put your feet because feet placement honestly depends on the machine that you’ve got access to She’s had some where she’s had to put her feet up quite high because of the movement plane It’s less where the feet go and it’s more where the knees and toes are in relation to each other in the bottom position
She’s had some where she’s had to put her feet up quite high because of the movement plane
It’s less where the feet go and it’s more where the knees and toes are in relation to each other in the bottom position
And obviously you’re going to work the back of the leg in the opposite position
This helps with imbalances
It’s very easy with lots of repeat training, lots of repeating the same movements where we have a bit of a discrepancy
So that’s real consideration

What are some of your favorite hamstring hits? [1:20:00]

Holly’s favorite is a seated hamstring curl

The reason for that is it is better able to isolate your hamstrings than say a prone hamstring curl where you’re laying on your stomach and you’re kind of curling the machine in towards your hamstrings Part of that is just because of the position of the movement When you’re in a seated hamstring machine, you’ve already got tension on the hamstrings because we’re sitting in this upright position It’s a lot more tension on the hamstrings than if you’re in a prone position where your hips are far more open We don’t get the same kind of shortening of the hamstrings, so her preference is to do a lot more volume on a seated machine She’s not saying don’t do any prone work, but she’ll do less of that exercise
The hamstring tie-in is another exercise she loves for hamstrings and glutes
You’ll see the bikini competitors specifically have these incredibly tight hamstring attachments to their glutes A lot of that is conditioning Which basically just means getting rid of all the body fat But RDLs (Romanian deadlift) and banded RDLs
Part of that is just because of the position of the movement
When you’re in a seated hamstring machine, you’ve already got tension on the hamstrings because we’re sitting in this upright position
It’s a lot more tension on the hamstrings than if you’re in a prone position where your hips are far more open
We don’t get the same kind of shortening of the hamstrings, so her preference is to do a lot more volume on a seated machine
She’s not saying don’t do any prone work, but she’ll do less of that exercise
A lot of that is conditioning
Which basically just means getting rid of all the body fat
But RDLs (Romanian deadlift) and banded RDLs

A Romanian deadlift (RDL)

A RDL a hinging exercise and you’re shifting your hips back to lengthen the hamstrings
You are loading the hamstrings in that exercise
You can do it with dumbbells, barbells, or kettlebells

Does she prefer to do these single leg?

She will do both
For a for a compound movement, if she’s trying to hammer her hamstrings, she probably will start with an RDL because it’s a big, multi-joint movement

When you do it with 2 legs, are you loading on your back?

No, the barbell hangs in front
When you first start, it’s crazy how quickly you can progress if you work at it She remembers picking up 25 lb dumbbells to do her first set of RDLs (a set of 12) Now, she’s all the way up to 90 lb dumbbells (for a set of 12 RDLs) 90 lb in each hand She would have never thought she could do that She credits her time in powerlifting to help her identify what she is really capable of
Peter notes, “ What impresses me is not your hamstring strength to do that, but your grip strength to do that. Most men cannot hold two 90 pound dumbbells .” She’s using grips People will say that’s cheating, but the point of the exercise is to hit your hamstrings So grips are a no-brainer for her
She remembers picking up 25 lb dumbbells to do her first set of RDLs (a set of 12)
Now, she’s all the way up to 90 lb dumbbells (for a set of 12 RDLs) 90 lb in each hand She would have never thought she could do that She credits her time in powerlifting to help her identify what she is really capable of
90 lb in each hand
She would have never thought she could do that
She credits her time in powerlifting to help her identify what she is really capable of
She’s using grips
People will say that’s cheating, but the point of the exercise is to hit your hamstrings
So grips are a no-brainer for her

When you do single-leg, do you do contralateral weight or ipsilateral weight? In other words, if your left leg is on the ground, are you going to hold the weight in your left hand or right hand?

For a beginner, she would do opposing because you’re going to have greater stability
As you become more advanced, use the same leg, same arm It challenges you in different ways It calls upon different muscle groups to help with stabilizing
It challenges you in different ways
It calls upon different muscle groups to help with stabilizing

Back to the person who wants to gain muscle and has some experience

Over the course of the 2nd or 3rd training mesocycles, they might incorporate the more advanced variation of a single leg RDL
They might start opposing to leg and then as they advance, move to a single leg over that 18-week, 24-week period

What are you doing for calves?

Originally she wasn’t doing any calf work because from an aesthetic perspective, it’s not something that you see a whole lot of
6 sets per week seated or standing For someone who is brand-new, 3 sets
Research shows seated calf presses tends to be a little bit better for hypertrophy outcomes
There was a study she did a post on recently looking at different feet positions
She used to do toes-in, pigeon toe style calf raises They are pointless and don’t really yield any meaningful results
Neutral stance and toes facing out tend to do better for optimizing hypertrophy of different aspects of your calf
For someone who is brand-new, 3 sets
They are pointless and don’t really yield any meaningful results

Upper body exercises: Holly’s approach with her clients [1:24:45]

Peter is surprised to hear that she’s not doing a lot of upper body for women
Instead, losing fat allows the muscles to show

What do you have women do in 1 day for chest, back, shoulders, and arms?

Holly explains, “ One of the main things again that does differ between men and women’s training programs is chest volume ”
Typically men want to have jacked biceps, triceps, and a big chest For women, there is less emphasis on that
Women, even in the fitness category seem to be judged on glutes, hamstrings, shoulders, quads Back is less important
Holly defers to the client for chest training
She loves the bench press She loves trying to hit a 1-rep max on a bench press
For her powerlifting is so empowering
For women, there is less emphasis on that
Back is less important
She loves trying to hit a 1-rep max on a bench press

For the woman who has no interest in her strength on a bench but wants to look great in a dress

Some people need a lot of chest training or conversely back training to correct their posture
If they’re hunched forward, kyphotic and have that rounding, they probably have extremely tight pectorals and weak back musculature Here she would do a lot more volume on the back and probably wouldn’t spend any time on chest work For that 1 final training session, she might have the hit 15 sets of back and no chest She would target wide back, mid back with: Wide grip pull downs Wide grip pull-ups For a beginner, she would start with assisted pull-ups and then progress to body weight pull-ups, then weighted pull-ups Over the course of 9 months of consistent training, there’s a good chance they could go from doing no body weight pull-ups to weighted pull-ups to reps
Here she would do a lot more volume on the back and probably wouldn’t spend any time on chest work
For that 1 final training session, she might have the hit 15 sets of back and no chest
She would target wide back, mid back with: Wide grip pull downs Wide grip pull-ups For a beginner, she would start with assisted pull-ups and then progress to body weight pull-ups, then weighted pull-ups
Over the course of 9 months of consistent training, there’s a good chance they could go from doing no body weight pull-ups to weighted pull-ups to reps
Wide grip pull downs
Wide grip pull-ups
For a beginner, she would start with assisted pull-ups and then progress to body weight pull-ups, then weighted pull-ups

“ I’d say that probably 90% of females would not be able to do a single body weight pull-up ”‒ Holly Baxter

For pull-ups, Holly’s last AMRAP (as many reps as possible) was 20 She used some weight but not a lot
Peter adds, that Beth Lewis is convinced that you can get any human being to do a bodyweight pull-up
Holly agrees, “ I was that person. I could never do a pull-up. I remember when I first got into lifting, I started with bands. ” She used the thickest green band possible with her feet into it to help her, and she could do about 5 reps She programed pull-ups into every single program for years It was always the most intimidating exercise She hated it, but always put it first She went from not being able to do any body weight to being able to do 20 over the span of 5 years
She used some weight but not a lot
She used the thickest green band possible with her feet into it to help her, and she could do about 5 reps
She programed pull-ups into every single program for years
It was always the most intimidating exercise
She hated it, but always put it first
She went from not being able to do any body weight to being able to do 20 over the span of 5 years

Was the progression using less and less resistance on the bands but always targeting a certain rep number for pull-ups?

She would pick somewhere in the hypertrophy range, anywhere from 8-12
Once she could do 12 reps with a certain band, she would progress to the next lighter resistance
Once she got to 12 body weight pull-ups she added the weight belt with a l little 2.5 lb kettlebell

How much are you varying your hand position for both yourself and then obviously for the client in this situation?

Her goal was primarily aesthetic, she wanted to widen her lats
So she would use a more prone grip to target her rhomboids more This is a close grip pull-up She didn’t do a whole lot of those Sometimes she would change her variation, if she had 3 sets programmed to failure She would do her 1st set to failure using a wide grip to target the muscle group she wanted to work the most Then she would switch to a neutral grip Then she might switch to an underhand grip
This is a close grip pull-up
She didn’t do a whole lot of those
Sometimes she would change her variation, if she had 3 sets programmed to failure She would do her 1st set to failure using a wide grip to target the muscle group she wanted to work the most Then she would switch to a neutral grip Then she might switch to an underhand grip
She would do her 1st set to failure using a wide grip to target the muscle group she wanted to work the most
Then she would switch to a neutral grip
Then she might switch to an underhand grip

How much time do you need between sets to failure on pull-ups?

A long time, sometimes it would take 5 minutes between sets

“ I think that’s where a lot of people find themselves not being able to make progress, and not just with pull-ups, but for training in general. They go way too fast .”‒ Holly Baxter

If you go too fast, you’re not recovered when you start your next working set and so you’re not able to execute the next working set to the same number of reps Or you might have to switch to a lighter weight
She used to do this as a trainer on the floor with only 60 minutes with a client
But you need to slow down your workouts Her rule of thumb is to get her heart rate back below 100 beats per minute before thinking about the next set Males tend to have a slightly lower heart rate than females
Or you might have to switch to a lighter weight
Her rule of thumb is to get her heart rate back below 100 beats per minute before thinking about the next set
Males tend to have a slightly lower heart rate than females

Holly’s take on arms‒ If you like arms, do arms. If you don’t like arms, don’t worry about it.

Peter finds this paradoxical looking at her arms
She hasn’t done a bicep curl or tricep extension in 12 months
So her arms are simply the result of all the stuff she carries Lifting heavy things for deadlifts and RDLs Coupled with getting rid of fat
Peter adds, “ You can joke and say look, biceps and triceps are not the most functional muscles in the world, but being able to do a pull-up, being able to do a deadlift, that confers great benefit to life skills ”
In some ways her body building training mirrors more function training than Peter would have expected
Lifting heavy things for deadlifts and RDLs
Coupled with getting rid of fat

Is Holly genetically inclined to have big muscles in her arms and that’s why she can get away with this?

Thinking about her parents, her dad is freakishly muscular for somebody that doesn’t do anything in the gym He grew up doing jobs that require manual labor He’s always been extremely lean He has short humerus (like her) and that creates an illusion of more muscle If you think about a long muscle, it requires much more growth to make it look big
But she thinks this is possible for other people too
He grew up doing jobs that require manual labor
He’s always been extremely lean
He has short humerus (like her) and that creates an illusion of more muscle If you think about a long muscle, it requires much more growth to make it look big
If you think about a long muscle, it requires much more growth to make it look big

Shoulder training

She does lots of training for the shoulders
One of her favorites is the scrape the rack shoulder press You are up against a squat rack with a barbell on You can do it kneeling or standing (she likes kneeling because it eliminates the ability to cheat, when you’re standing you can use a bit of momentum to keep pushing) You’re basically driving that barbell into the rack You’re extended pretty vertically You have to have a good range of motion and mobility for your shoulders
Another favorite is the behind the neck shoulder press, on a Smith machine She doesn’t do this with everybody She does it because she has a lot of mobility with her shoulders She only does it on the Smith machine because it keeps her in a very safe, fixed plane She’s not using dumbbells where she’s swerving everywhere (or free barbells) She likes this one because she’s had some shoulder injuries
You are up against a squat rack with a barbell on
You can do it kneeling or standing (she likes kneeling because it eliminates the ability to cheat, when you’re standing you can use a bit of momentum to keep pushing)
You’re basically driving that barbell into the rack
You’re extended pretty vertically
You have to have a good range of motion and mobility for your shoulders
She doesn’t do this with everybody
She does it because she has a lot of mobility with her shoulders
She only does it on the Smith machine because it keeps her in a very safe, fixed plane She’s not using dumbbells where she’s swerving everywhere (or free barbells)
She likes this one because she’s had some shoulder injuries
She’s not using dumbbells where she’s swerving everywhere (or free barbells)

What does she recommend for somebody who can’t really press overhead due to shoulder injuries or impingements?

Rehabilitation is not her area of expertise, for this she would work with a specialist
Lateral raises are another thing people can do to improve their medial shoulder and rear delts
You can do a reverse pec fly where you’re kind of pushing away
If you have access to cables, you can do a cable crossover to hit your rear delts
Face pulls are another exercise

Importance of nutrition and protein during the muscle building phase [1:34:00]

Back to the woman who wants to lose 5 lbs of fat and gain 5 lbs of muscle
She’s 8 months in and has hit her hypertrophy goals She’s progressed the intensity of all of this, she’s overloaded
She does another DEXA scan and has gained 5 lbs of muscle
She’s progressed the intensity of all of this, she’s overloaded

How much fat do you think has changed at this point?

This really depends on diet
You can go through a period of progressive overload with an intentional building phase and do all the right things when it comes to the resistance training, but the other key piece to the success of that build is diet

“ How much was the client able to adhere to their dietary requirements during that time is probably 50% of the outcome ”‒ Holly Baxter

Just to create a stereotype, let’s say she has a reasonable total energy intake but is deficient in protein relative to her goal

What would Holly’s protein goals be for her?

It’s the same for males as females
The only difference is the absolute total target for females is a little lower

To optimize hypertrophy you need to take in anywhere from 1.8 g protein/ kg lean body mass to 3 g/kg

This also depends on the individuals dietary preferences and what food they like Some people love protein and for others it’s a real struggle
There isn’t one number that is better than another, but consistency is important
You don’t want your protein intake to be bouncing all over the place for a couple of reasons This can potentially reduce or limit your potential It impacts your energy balance because protein has a far higher thermogenic effect than carbohydrates or fat To shift your diet such that 90% of your calories are now coming from protein might shift your energy balance in a negative direction
Let’s say this hypothetical woman is 140 lbs and she’s okay being 140 lbs in the end but that 10 lb swap in body composition is important (lose 5 lb fat and gain 5 lb muscle)
Some people love protein and for others it’s a real struggle
This can potentially reduce or limit your potential
It impacts your energy balance because protein has a far higher thermogenic effect than carbohydrates or fat
To shift your diet such that 90% of your calories are now coming from protein might shift your energy balance in a negative direction

Do you basically keep her calories stable and just switch the macros around to increase protein?

Initially, absolutely
Holly would look at what her current dietary intake is and if it’s below the recommended reference range
She would pick a number that aligned with her lean body mass and her ability to nail that number consistently
Then progressively through the building phase, she would want to slowly add in calories

Overfeeding studies

There is not as much information available about overfeeding as there is for weight loss
If you compare somebody who has a surplus of 20% above their maintenance calories versus 40%, versus 60%, you tend to see that the most muscle mass is gained around that 20% mark You see excess body fat gain going up to 40% or 60% above maintenance calories “ It doesn’t continue to get better the more you eat. ”
You see excess body fat gain going up to 40% or 60% above maintenance calories
“ It doesn’t continue to get better the more you eat. ”

If she is eating 2000 kcal coming in, would Holly put her on a surplus even though she doesn’t want to gain weight? She just wants to gain lean mass.

For the initial week, Holly wants to see the data to see if what they are eating matches what they report
If 2000 kcal was her maintenance calories, that’s not optimal
She would us a small surplus, 10-20% surplus
Part of this decision is based on the individual’s comfort with adding body fat This is difficult for females She’s usually working with a more restrictive calorie surplus with females But 20% surplus is optimal Most women won’t adhere to this so she would be more realistic and go with a 10% increase above their maintenance
This is difficult for females
She’s usually working with a more restrictive calorie surplus with females
But 20% surplus is optimal
Most women won’t adhere to this so she would be more realistic and go with a 10% increase above their maintenance

How would this change if she was 140 lbs and she wanted to weigh 130 next year?

Now she wants to lose 10 pounds of fat
She doesn’t want to lose any muscle Functionally this means putting on some muscle to offset the fat loss
Functionally this means putting on some muscle to offset the fat loss

Would you then not put her in a calorie surplus during the building phase?

Holly would still use a calorie surplus because acquiring that new tissue is going to be energetically demanding
Now, if somebody is starting with a higher body fat % (they have an energy reserve), and we can petition that stored body fat, she many not need to put them in a major surplus That’s the whole concept behind body recomposition
This is client dependent
If they were 20% body fat, she might just have them nail their calories for the next 6 months, and overtime they would see some positive changes because they have enough body fat available to help with building the foundation of that new skeletal tissue
That’s the whole concept behind body recomposition

Changes to nutrition and training during a fat loss phase [1:40:30]

Back to our hypothetical client…

At 8 months in, the hypothetical female is two-thirds of the way to her goal She’s on target for lean mass She has added a little bit of fat mass
She had 4 months to get that fat off and keep the lean tissue on
She’s on target for lean mass
She has added a little bit of fat mass

What changes in her nutrition? What changes in the gym?

Changes in the gym are negligible

“ I think there’s a misconception that suddenly everything changes when you start dieting ”‒ Holly Baxter

The goal of dieting is to keep as high calories as possible with as little increase in activity as possible, while still achieving a targeted rate of weekly weight loss
Training may be exactly the same She may do a couple tweaks if they’re bored
The principles of that training program and structure do not change unless suddenly they decide they no longer want those giant glutes
From a diet perspective, she picks a target date for weight loss and does a back calculation to pick a targeted, weekly rate of weight loss that does not exceed more than 1.5% of their body weight (per week)
Peter notes, “ That still sounds like a lot… That could be 2 lbs a week .”
You’ve got to be realistic with how much can be achieved in a seven-day period for that person
When extreme dietary interventions are carried out that push weight loss beyond those numbers, you increase the risk of metabolic adaptations Your self-defense system really ramps up and you become far more efficient
You want to keep your BMR (basal metabolic rate) nice and high It’s protective of your muscle mass
She may do a couple tweaks if they’re bored
Your self-defense system really ramps up and you become far more efficient
It’s protective of your muscle mass

Beyond a loss of 1.5% body weight/ week, people start losing a greater % of muscle mass and lean tissue (as opposed to fat)

A lot of people will argue with her in the first few weeks, they want to lose weight more rapidly
She asks them if it would be okay if they lost 2 kg (4.4 lb) but not of it was fat, it was all lean tissue
You have to be realistic with what you can do in a week and how it might impact muscle loss, and then determine what calorie deficit that actually requires
There is a wonderful calculation in the book‒ The Complete Contest Prep Guide also in Fat Loss Forever ) It outlines what amount of calories is required to lose a certain amount of body weight in grams This can forecast exactly what someone could lose
It outlines what amount of calories is required to lose a certain amount of body weight in grams
This can forecast exactly what someone could lose

Practical applications of calculating calories to lose weight

It’s difficult to use a scale to weigh everything, so how do you reach that level of precision without a scale?

There is so much value in dedicating time to weighing your food and learning what a 4-oz piece of chicken looks like To learn what X food weighs on a scale and understand what it represents from a caloric perspective and macronutrient perspective Knowledge is power
It’s a lifelong skill that might take you 6 months to get the hang of
Holly has been doing this for over 12 years and now she can estimate/ eyeball anything
She does a lot of accountability coaching, homework tasks, getting clients practical tools and resources to learn how to do this This is part of a client’s weekly check-in
To learn what X food weighs on a scale and understand what it represents from a caloric perspective and macronutrient perspective
Knowledge is power
This is part of a client’s weekly check-in

Let’s say our hypothetical woman is 4 weeks out from the wedding. Where does she need to be 1 month out to hit her goals?

Holly can tell when the client gets within 3-5% of their goal body fat % There’s a lot of photo exchange She collects a lot of data for a client to make an accurate analysis, but there are many benefits of also having pictures
It’s not always feasible to look at somebody’s DEXA scan every 6 weeks as they are working toward their goal
So it comes down to tracking their macros, watching their weight trends This coupled with their pictures provides a good picture of what body fat loss is happening
There’s a lot of photo exchange
She collects a lot of data for a client to make an accurate analysis, but there are many benefits of also having pictures
This coupled with their pictures provides a good picture of what body fat loss is happening

For this hypothetical woman who is 140 lbs and loses 5 lbs of fat while she gains 5 lbs of muscle, how visible is that change?

Probably not as much as you would think

So maybe this goal wasn’t ambitious enough?

For somebody to develop the muscularity of an elite fitness profession is a 10-year process for some people
So this 5 lb switch is a realistic goal
But how noticeable it is will depend on where they started and how lean they get at the end

“ Sometimes the first attempt at fat loss doesn’t get you to the goal ”‒ Holly Baxter

Often it takes multiple attempts of coming out of this diet process, through recovery diets, and then fat loss again, and then another recovery diet, before we really start to kind of achieve the ideal that that client is wanting

Let’s say she hit her goal and is pleased. Now she wants to be even leaner a year from now but doesn’t want to be as restrictive in her diet while she’s on her honeymoon.

How does she recover from the work she put in over the past year without undoing all the good she achieved?

Some longitudinal studies show what happens with fat loss during a dietary intervention People don’t necessarily have a difficult time losing weight, it’s the inability to keep it off
Often the reason it is difficult to keep the fat off is because people do things in such extremes
Maybe they did everything wrong during their diet phase, and as a consequence they’ve lost a lot of muscle mass along with the fat That negatively impacts their basal metabolic rate Now their body’s requirement for energy are a lot less They’re coming up against hormonal changes that impact their appetite-regulating hormones
Most people experience some form of hyperphagia or excessive, extreme desire to eat more than is physiologically required by their body after dieting
People don’t necessarily have a difficult time losing weight, it’s the inability to keep it off
That negatively impacts their basal metabolic rate
Now their body’s requirement for energy are a lot less
They’re coming up against hormonal changes that impact their appetite-regulating hormones

So if you’re not conscious of this happening, and not aware of these hormonal changes, the natural inclination post-diet is to go back to what you were doing before

This is especially true if you haven’t chosen a dietary approach that works for your food preferences
This is where a lot of people struggle and say, “ Oh, I’ve tried this diet. It didn’t work, tried this one, it didn’t work .” They end up going back to what they like
They end up going back to what they like

You can avoid this by slowly reintroducing calories post-diet and, unfortunately, that means that the whole process still feels like a diet

A “reverse diet” after a cutting phase to help prevent weight gain [1:49:45]

Holly relates, as somebody who just finished a competition a few weeks ago, “ I didn’t get as lean, so the hunger response was not as severe as it’s been in the past, but it’s still there ”
She notes how hard it is to continue to regulate your diet when the goal is out of sight
After a competition she does a reverse diet This is hard because you’re not getting a positive visual response The change is intrinsic, you can’t see your metabolism improving The only evidence of a reverse diet is a small, little increase in calories, something like 100 calories more a week It takes a good number of weeks to get your calories back to a point where it makes a meaningful difference She can now have a couple of glasses of wine with friends and has been able to have desert again
This is hard because you’re not getting a positive visual response
The change is intrinsic, you can’t see your metabolism improving
The only evidence of a reverse diet is a small, little increase in calories, something like 100 calories more a week
It takes a good number of weeks to get your calories back to a point where it makes a meaningful difference
She can now have a couple of glasses of wine with friends and has been able to have desert again

How long does the reverse diet last?

Rule #1 for setting a reverse diet after you’ve finished being in a deficit is simply finding your new maintenance calories
You can assess that by looking a how much weight you lost over the final weeks of the fat-loss phase
For this woman, if her maintenance was 2000 coming in, it’s probably going to be a lot lower Peter thought it would be higher because she has more muscle Holly points out, “ It depends on how lean she wants to get ” If she’s happy to stay at 140 for the next 6 months before she begins her next cycle It depends on her fat-loss phase and how extreme, how much deficit she needed to lose weight Did she do a lot of cardio to create the deficit? What was the intensity of the cardio like? She could have lost some muscle during the fat-loss phase
Peter thought it would be higher because she has more muscle
Holly points out, “ It depends on how lean she wants to get ”
If she’s happy to stay at 140 for the next 6 months before she begins her next cycle
It depends on her fat-loss phase and how extreme, how much deficit she needed to lose weight Did she do a lot of cardio to create the deficit? What was the intensity of the cardio like? She could have lost some muscle during the fat-loss phase
Did she do a lot of cardio to create the deficit?
What was the intensity of the cardio like?
She could have lost some muscle during the fat-loss phase

“ You will always lose muscle mass when you attempt a fat-loss phase, but the leaner you get, the greater the risk of that muscle loss is, because you no longer have that caloric cushioning to support that ”‒ Holly Baxter

Her metabolism when we go back to her new maintenance calories, after she’s added more muscle, will require fewer calories than at the start of that reverse diet
There may be some work that needs to be done reversing to get her back to that 2000 calories she was on She may not be able to go straight back to that It takes weeks
She may not be able to go straight back to that
It takes weeks

The way to do it is with slow, incremental increases week-by-week

Observe the weight gain and adjust accordingly

Female-specific training considerations: programming, reps, volume, sex hormones, and more [1:53:15]

Differences between men and women

Men and women may have a preference for targeting different muscles groups
People may have actually heard somewhere along their fitness journey that women tend to do better with higher rep ranges, and males do better with lower rep ranges
Part of that is due to differences in sex hormones, and that has an impact on muscle fiber type
Females have a greater % of Type I muscle fibers than males
The positive consequence of that difference there for females is that it means that we are better able to transport nutrients into the tissues and also clear different metabolites during activities

The benefit is that women tend fatigable less when it comes to training

Women also tend to do better utilizing fatty acids In both the fed and fasted state This means women are less reliant on glycolytic pathways or anaerobic processes This means women do better when it come to recovery
In both the fed and fasted state
This means women are less reliant on glycolytic pathways or anaerobic processes
This means women do better when it come to recovery

Holly’s recommendations for women

When building a training program, Holly would opt for a little more strength-specific training
For strength training , the rep ranges between 1-6
The moderate rep ranges are called the hypertrophy rep range is 8-12 reps

Holly will use more moderate rep ranges for women and strength training rep ranges for men

For endurance strength training , the rep range is 15-20 reps
Some women enjoy endurance strength training, and tolerate it better than strength-based training

Actual differences in women come down to muscle fiber type, higher levels of estrogen, and more estrogen receptors in their skeletal tissue

That’s a benefit for nutrient transport

Would that suggest that women may have an easier time training without ingestion of glucose, at least in theory?

Some women don’t like to train on an empty stomach but other do It’s really subjective
It’s really subjective

“ The science can always say certain things, but we’ve also then got to take into account individuals’ perception, and it is very subjective ”‒ Holly Baxter

Holly has struggled with irritable bowel syndrome for the last 10 years
She can’t think of anything worse than trying to train with anything in her stomach
She might have a couple cups of coffee in the morning
She would rather train hungry than with a full stomach
The differences may come down to exercise type Endurance training is very different from anaerobic training The resistance training Holly does is more anaerobic
There has been more information recently on effects of the menstrual cycle on hypertrophy outcomes and strength training
4 studies come to mind ( reviewed here ) and half of them show that during the second phase (the luteal phase) of the menstrual cycle (see the figure below), that strength decreases for females during training This is when progesterone is high and estrogen is low
Endurance training is very different from anaerobic training
The resistance training Holly does is more anaerobic
This is when progesterone is high and estrogen is low

Figure 3. Hormone levels during the menstrual cycle. Image credit: By Isometrik on Wikipedia

When progesterone is low, about 50% of women report feeling a lot better with their training Their performance is better and strength is improved
Their performance is better and strength is improved

When it comes to programming for females, as a default Holly will set deloads on or around their menstrual cycle

“ I’m guessing that’s something a lot of male trainers don’t think about ”‒ Peter Attia

So she may upload for 2 weeks then download for 2 weeks This depends on how serious the client is about their progression
Many things can be impacted by your menstrual cycle Your ability to be adherent Your energy, mood, sleep Constipation is another common symptoms of menes
This depends on how serious the client is about their progression
Your ability to be adherent
Your energy, mood, sleep
Constipation is another common symptoms of menes

How many times has Holly found herself training clients post-pregnancy and menopause?

More recently her clientele has shifted to middle age Most of her clients are between 35-65
The transition from higher levels of sex hormones (testerone and estrogen) to low levels during menopause is really hard on females
Funny story, Holly’s mom did not know there were symptoms that came along with menopause For her, she was so upset and just frustrated that she didn’t have any energy, or she didn’t want to go for walks anymore, or go to her Pilates classes, or whatever she was doing
There is so much benefit to getting your hormone levels tested
Getting somebody back into the normal reference ranges with hormone replacement therapy has huge benefits for their quality of life People are much more motivated to be active
Most of her clients are between 35-65
For her, she was so upset and just frustrated that she didn’t have any energy, or she didn’t want to go for walks anymore, or go to her Pilates classes, or whatever she was doing
People are much more motivated to be active

Does she see a difference in clients (menopausal women) who are not on hormone replacement therapy versus those who are? A difference in body composition and work tolerance?

Absolutely
Women who aren’t proactive and on some kind of hormone replacement therapy tend to come in with extremely low calorie intake and extreme exercise output It’s like they’re burning the candle at both ends They’re feeling frustrated because the eat nothing, train multiple times a day, and can’t lose fat
It’s difficult when you’ve been dealing with those negative symptoms for a long period of time
Naturally, if you don’t feel good, you’re not going to train
It’s like they’re burning the candle at both ends
They’re feeling frustrated because the eat nothing, train multiple times a day, and can’t lose fat

“ People’s quality of exercise goes down. Now they’re losing lean body mass .”‒ Holly Baxter

Aging tends to gravitate towards more indulgent foods and a different lifestyle that keeps you less active, unless you’re very proactive about it
So, people gain a lot of weight during that time
Holly defers to the experts for hormone replacement therapy but integrates it with the reverse diet to get the client’s calories back up to something that feels manageable

What about women after they have kids? Is there any difference between a 40-year-old woman who has never had kids and one who has 3 kids? They’re both premenopausal. What differences does Holly notice?

The first one is simply the time they have for their goals
Holly has some clients who have all the time in the world to pursue their physique or health goals Either their kids are grown or they never had kids
For people with children, it’s really hard and this comes back to managing expectations
Either their kids are grown or they never had kids

There are major differences in what can be achieved realistically

This is why looking at someone’s lifestyle is so important
Women don’t’ give themselves enough credit for the amount of time they spend on these other obligations

For the 40-year-old mom of 3 who’s got 10 lbs she can’t shed, how important is dietary restriction versus increased activity? Hormonally, which one is best for her?

Peter notes that one of the things his practice doesn’t put an emphasis on is body composition They aim to make patients as metabolically healthy as possible But that won’t necessarily come with an improvement in body composition It won’t take them to their pre-pregnancy weight
Many of Holly’s clients also want to be healthier but they want to be able to fit into clothes they were wearing 2 years ago That’s tough
Holly has said multiple times to women, “ You need to get a new wardrobe ” It’s the easiest way to instantly feel better about yourself Once you have clothes that are more flattering for you now-physique, it’s going to improve your mental health You’re not constantly pulling and tugging on clothing, which makes you think about your body
Is it realistic for somebody to get back to their pre-pregnancy body weight? Maybe
But for a lot of women, if you have partaken in some kind of exercise, anything that has applied some kind of load and resistance, you’ve probably added a lot of muscle since you were pregnant So to expect to see the same number on the scale is often not realistic You would have to lose some muscle to get back to that
They aim to make patients as metabolically healthy as possible
But that won’t necessarily come with an improvement in body composition
It won’t take them to their pre-pregnancy weight
That’s tough
It’s the easiest way to instantly feel better about yourself
Once you have clothes that are more flattering for you now-physique, it’s going to improve your mental health You’re not constantly pulling and tugging on clothing, which makes you think about your body
You’re not constantly pulling and tugging on clothing, which makes you think about your body
So to expect to see the same number on the scale is often not realistic
You would have to lose some muscle to get back to that

Back to the question of differences between men and women, even from a hormonal perspective, there are not many

With proper nutrition intervention to optimize metabolism, there is a true adaptation that takes place Through the process of reverse dieting, we want to sit right on the edge of that every week We’re trying to positively adapt and get their metabolism to move up, and that can be done without any changes in lean body mass
Through the process of reverse dieting, we want to sit right on the edge of that every week
We’re trying to positively adapt and get their metabolism to move up, and that can be done without any changes in lean body mass

This just means it’s going to take a mom of 3 kids a lot longer to get to their goal

Holly’s future in bodybuilding and helping struggling women [2:05:45]

Does Holly plan to continue bodybuilding?

She’s not sure
Part of her feels compelled to stay in the industry and keep showing up on a yearly basis To be an advocate for people suffering in silence
So many people have difficulties sharing their struggles, reaching out for help, getting support
She has seen a massive shift in the type of work she’s doing She is sharing education If you can’t keep making progress or you never really work on the psychological dysfunction it can be a really hard life to live It can be very unrewarding and can feel like, “ What’s the point? ”
She feels very conflicted about coming back and staying because she doesn’t have the same feeling towards competing anymore
She no longer desires the leanness
She can do the process She was worried in this last competition about how it would be without the eating disorder She was worried if she had what it takes to execute It was nerve-wracking, but she was able to do it
But now she’s no longer attached to the body
To be an advocate for people suffering in silence
She is sharing education
If you can’t keep making progress or you never really work on the psychological dysfunction it can be a really hard life to live It can be very unrewarding and can feel like, “ What’s the point? ”
It can be very unrewarding and can feel like, “ What’s the point? ”
She was worried in this last competition about how it would be without the eating disorder
She was worried if she had what it takes to execute
It was nerve-wracking, but she was able to do it

She wants to be an advocate to help people realize what they can do if they do the work

“ I think you can do a bodybuilding show, and not have some kind of eating disorder, but also recognize that it’s an extreme sport, and it requires a lot of sacrifice ”‒ Holly Baxter

Currently she is so passionate about mental health
She may potentially step back from everything that she does in the fitness industry and go back to school to do a PhD in the area of neuropsychology or mental health and eating disorders
She wants to help people
She knows there are so many women that would benefit from learning that she struggled with all of these feelings and low self-confidence and low self-esteem Learning that there’s another way, aside from calorie restriction and dietary restriction, that can lead to the same positive outcomes and value as a human
Learning that there’s another way, aside from calorie restriction and dietary restriction, that can lead to the same positive outcomes and value as a human

Looking forward: Holly’s focus on longevity, bone mineral density, and wellness [2:08:15]

Her approach now is all about longevity
If you had asked her 2 years ago, she would still say, “ Oh, I’m still going to look amazing ”
Her ideals about what life should be to be truly happy doesn’t involve slaving away in the gym anymore It doesn’t look like being a lifelong competitor
This doesn’t mean she will let herself go and not have any interest in exercise
She wants to remain functionally fit
She thinks her training will gravitate away from the gym some and incorporate more hobbies that keep her active and functioning well
But she will always lift because she knows the benefits of resistance training
It doesn’t look like being a lifelong competitor

Are you okay with the changes that will come with that, with not being 12% body fat?

Absolutely
She thinks even in 6 weeks, she will no longer look like she does now
She’s very content with the idea that she can still be healthy at a much higher body fat % As long as she has muscle mass underneath that body fat
As long as she has muscle mass underneath that body fat

Protective effects of increased muscle mass

Muscle mass is protective in so many ways Reducing risk of bone degenerative conditions like osteoporosis
Resistance training, anything that applies tension and stress on the bone, to get those little bone-creating cells to ramp up
Reducing risk of bone degenerative conditions like osteoporosis

Training has given her greater bone density

Peter adds, “ That’s kind of the message we give to our patients, both men and women. But I think it’s more important for women to hear because I think sometimes women are a little bit more governed by the scale than by what’s underneath .”
Holly’s dad struggles severely with osteoporosis and arthritis He needs a double shoulder reconstruction, and he won’t do it
Peter is much more concerned about how much muscle mass his patients can put on and how much they can increased the density of their bones than their weight
If your weight is predominately lean tissue, and you’re maintaining the integrity of your skeletal structure, you’re going to live a better life
Not to stereotype ladies, but the first thing Holly has women do is let go of some of that identity and belief that they need to look a certain way It’s one thing to feel comfortable and confident But let’s focus on the important things of life
For Holly, having gone through all of this, she will always be a recovering person with an eating disorder But there are so many other things that are more important to her now Her long-term health is important
Mentally, she’s probably going to stay active because of all the benefits for mental health
He needs a double shoulder reconstruction, and he won’t do it
It’s one thing to feel comfortable and confident
But let’s focus on the important things of life
But there are so many other things that are more important to her now
Her long-term health is important

“ Staying so fixated on the scale and body fat and cellulite, it’s the least of my concerns right now, which is a really weird thing for me to say, as someone that used to feel… unless I stayed lean year ’round, I was not a worthy human ”‒ Holly Baxter

Holly adds, “ There needs to be a big shift in what we are delivering to our patients and to our clients. Because, if we look at social media, it’s really easy to get engrossed in social media’s thin ideals and filters. And the best step that I ever took was just unfollow all the accounts that are only focused on the aesthetic ”
She doesn’t look at these social media accounts anymore
She reads about the things she wants to learn about
If she wants to feel happy, she has 100 books she’s read on how to change your mind How to be happy What is life’s purpose How to break habits
This is where she spends her time now She’s looking to optimize herself as a human And this means there’s less need for the aesthetic stuff
How to be happy
What is life’s purpose
How to break habits
She’s looking to optimize herself as a human
And this means there’s less need for the aesthetic stuff

Selected Links / Related Material

Calculation of calories required to lose X amount of weight :

The Complete Contest Prep Guide by Layne Norton and Peter Baker (2018) | [1:43:30]
Fat Loss Forever: How to Lose Fat and KEEP it Off by Layne Norton and Peter Baker (2019) | [1:43:30]

Systematic review on glute hypertrophy using muscle activation to measure hypertrophy : Gluteus Maximus Activation during Common Strength and Hypertrophy Exercises: A Systematic Review | Journal of Sports Science & Medicine (WK Neto et al. 2020) | [1:16:00]

The effect of foot position during calf presses : Different Foot Positioning During Calf Training to Induce Portion-Specific Gastrocnemius Muscle Hypertrophy | Journal of Strength Conditioning and Research (JP Nunes et al. 2020) | [1:24:45]

Women’s strength may be less in the luteal phase of menstrual cycle : Effects of Follicular and Luteal Phase-Based Menstrual Cycle Resistance Training on Muscle Strength and Mass | Sports Medicine (J Kissow et al. 2022) | [1:57:45]

People Mentioned

Ric Elias (survivor of Flight 1549 and cofounder of Red Ventures) [37:44]
Beth Lewis (movement and training coach) [1:27:30]

Holly Baxter earned a BS in Food Science and Nutrition with distinction and a MS in Dietetics from Deakin University. She is an accredited practicing dietician (APD), nutrition educator, and founder of Bia Body . She is also a physique coach, personal trainer, and competition coach. Holly has a strong background in athletics as a successful sprinter in high school and carried this success over into her competitive bodybuilding career. She is a two time world level champion fitness model in the Natural Universe and Natural Olympia competitions (2015) and recently achieved pro status with the WBFF.

Instagram: hollytbaxter

Website: https://bia-body.com

Contact: coaching@biabody.com

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