podcast Peter Attia 2025-02-10 heat-exposure-and-cold-exposure-to-optim topics

#335 ‒ The science of resistance training, building muscle, and anabolic steroid use in bodybuilding | Mike Israetel, Ph.D.

Audio

Show notes

Mike Israetel is a sports physiologist, competitive bodybuilder, and co-founder of Renaissance Periodization, where he coaches athletes and professionals in diet and weight training. In this episode, Mike shares his journey from powerlifting to academia, breaking down the core principles of resistance training, including exercise selection, volume, intensity, and frequency. He debunks common misconceptions about strength training, explains how to structure an effective program for beginners and advanced lifters, and provides candid insights into his experience with anabolic steroids, discussing their effects on muscle growth, performance, and health risks. This conversation offers a deep dive into the science of building muscle, the realities of bodybuilding at the highest levels, and the potential of AI-driven breakthroughs to advance human performance and longevity.

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We discuss:

Mike’s academic journey, and early experiences in powerlifting, personal training, and sports physiology [3:30];
Mike’s transition from powerlifting to bodybuilding, and his scientific and artistic approach to sculpting muscle and optimizing aesthetics [9:15];
The value of strength training, time efficiency, and how it differs from endurance training [14:45];
Neurological fatigue in strength training: balancing recovery and pushing the limits [26:15];
The relationship between training intensity and volume, why muscle growth is not linear, and how different approaches affect results [35:00];
Sustainable and effective approaches to maximizing muscle growth: training close to failure while minimizing fatigue [40:00];
An efficient and effective resistance training program for beginners with limited time [49:00];
Advice for finding a good trainer [1:06:30];
Troubleshooting training plateaus: optimizing exercise selection, intensity, and recovery for muscle growth [1:13:30];
The impact of genetics, age, and lifestyle on muscle growth [1:27:45];
The importance of nutrition, protein intake, and consistency in both training and diet for muscle growth [1:31:00];
The use of anabolic steroids to boost muscle growth: doses, drug combinations, and side effects [1:35:45];
Long-term impact of steroid use on muscle retention, the role of genetics and individual variability, and their impact after discontinuation [1:52:15];
Trade-offs of long-term usage of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone: health, performance, and Mike’s future plans [2:00:45];
The potential for AI-driven medical breakthroughs to reverse aging and disease [2:07:30];
The role of AI in accelerating drug development, advancing human longevity, and overcoming biological limitations [2:19:45];
The philosophical implications of simulated reality, the impact of robotics on human labor and economics, and the challenge of predicting the future [2:25:15];
Would having kids change Mike’s philosophy around anabolic steroid use? [2:32:15];
The role of GLP-1 agonists in bodybuilding and general weight management, and the moral and philosophical debates surrounding their use [2:35:45]; and
More.

Show Notes

Notes from intro :
Dr. Mike Israetel holds a PhD in sports physiology and is currently the head science consultant for Renaissance Periodization
He is a competitive body builder and was formerly a professor of exercise and sports science at the School of Public Health at Temple University in Philadelphia
As a co-founder of Renaissance Periodization, Mike has coached numerous athletes and busy professionals in both diet and weight training
Mike also has a very popular YouTube channel where he loves to do debunking videos that are both informative and endlessly amusing
In today’s conversation, Mike shares his personal journey From his early experiences in powerlifting and bodybuilding To his academic training in exercise science
We discuss the core principles of resistance training Exercise selection Volume Intensity Frequency
Mike debunks the common fear that strength training will make people overly muscular without intention He explains why this belief is unfounded He highlights the dedication required to build significant muscle mass
We outline what a resistance training routine could look like For someone new to the gym Or transitioning from sports
For more experienced lifters, we explore how to optimize resistance training for muscle growth
Mike shares his personal experience with anabolic steroids Outlining their impact on muscle growth, mental health, and performance He discusses the pros and cons, including the significant physical change and potential long-term health risk It’s worth pointing out here that Mike is one of the most candid individuals that Peter has ever met when it comes to discussing his use of anabolic steroids, growth hormone, and things of that nature
What is remarkable is just how jaw dropping the numbers are in terms of usage Compared to the doses of testosterone Peter has prescribed for many patients under physiologic circumstances, it was impossible to fathom the types of doses that bodybuilders are using
We discuss the role of genetics in muscle growth and strength, as well as the influence of age and other lifestyle factors
This conversation offers insights into the science of resistance training and practical advice for anyone looking to build muscle
While also exploring the experience of someone who has been in the bodybuilding world
From his early experiences in powerlifting and bodybuilding
To his academic training in exercise science
Exercise selection
Volume
Intensity
Frequency
He explains why this belief is unfounded
He highlights the dedication required to build significant muscle mass
For someone new to the gym
Or transitioning from sports
Outlining their impact on muscle growth, mental health, and performance
He discusses the pros and cons, including the significant physical change and potential long-term health risk
It’s worth pointing out here that Mike is one of the most candid individuals that Peter has ever met when it comes to discussing his use of anabolic steroids, growth hormone, and things of that nature
Compared to the doses of testosterone Peter has prescribed for many patients under physiologic circumstances, it was impossible to fathom the types of doses that bodybuilders are using

Mike’s academic journey, and early experiences in powerlifting, personal training, and sports physiology [3:30]

There’s going to be some folks listening and watching us who are probably very familiar with Mike’s work and they’ve probably come to learn about him as Peter has through endless years of being both amused and educated by his content on YouTube
But there’s probably a group of people here just in my audience that aren’t overlapping with yours

Give folks a chance to get to know you, and talk a little bit about your background

Mike came to the US from Russia when he was 7
Before that, he grew up in Moscow, Russia
In the US, he grew up in the metropolitan Detroit area in a place called Oak Park, Michigan

What did you study in undergrad?

Movement science, kinesiology at the University of Michigan

What sports were you playing then?

He wrestled in high school, but he wasn’t very good at it, wasn’t dedicated
He got into lifting hardcore towards the middle and end of high school
By the time he was in college, he was gearing up to start competing in powerlifting
He actually started the Michigan Powerlifting Club A team that went to meets and all that stuff He was a competitive powerlifter in his undergraduate years
A team that went to meets and all that stuff
He was a competitive powerlifter in his undergraduate years

Peter adds, “ For folks who might be confused about all the different disciplines, powerlifting is the sport where there are 3 and only 3 lifts. There’s a deadlift, a bench press, a squat, and you win by having the highest total weights across the three .”

So squat plus bench plus deadlift equals total, and the person with the biggest total for the weight class Or absolute or by formula wins the whole thing
Mike was not into bodybuilding yet
Or absolute or by formula wins the whole thing

Did you go off and do your PhD right away after undergrad?

No, he got a master’s
In the exercise science field, going straight from undergraduate to a PhD is very rare Usually you need a lot more preparatory work because the undergraduate curriculum typically just doesn’t teach you a whole lot of applied super specialized exercise science
He learned anatomy and physiology very well, but much more general curriculum Especially at an RO1 school like Michigan, they didn’t super hyper specialize He learned almost nothing about sports whatsoever Resistance training wasn’t a big focus there; he must have had 2 bullet points of how to resistance train in any one of his classes It was chronic disease management, health, clinical application
Right after undergrad, he went to Appalachian State University to get a Master’s degree under Dr. Travis Triplett and Dr. Jeff McBride
That was a subspecialty of exercise science: strength and conditioning So much closer to what he was super passionate about
Mike then worked for 1 year as a personal trainer It’s like jail He did a year in Manhattan with his colleague Mr. Nick Shaw , who’s now the co-founder and CEO of their company, RP They trained folks at a private personal training studio in Manhattan (like CTOs of major companies)
Mike had never met a truly rich person until he met someone who was worth like $50 million Turns out they’re just really nice cool people that are really chill and have the same problems everyone else does, trying to get in shape
In that year, Mike realized he didn’t know enough, and then he enrolled in the PhD program for sport physiology at East Tennessee State University under Dr. Mike Stone
That was an amazing time
He probably learned more in that 3 years than he ever learned at school Totally immersive Got to work with teams, got to work with athletes, strength and conditioning coach Truly sports science work
Usually you need a lot more preparatory work because the undergraduate curriculum typically just doesn’t teach you a whole lot of applied super specialized exercise science
Especially at an RO1 school like Michigan, they didn’t super hyper specialize
He learned almost nothing about sports whatsoever
Resistance training wasn’t a big focus there; he must have had 2 bullet points of how to resistance train in any one of his classes
It was chronic disease management, health, clinical application
So much closer to what he was super passionate about
It’s like jail
He did a year in Manhattan with his colleague Mr. Nick Shaw , who’s now the co-founder and CEO of their company, RP
They trained folks at a private personal training studio in Manhattan (like CTOs of major companies)
Turns out they’re just really nice cool people that are really chill and have the same problems everyone else does, trying to get in shape
Totally immersive
Got to work with teams, got to work with athletes, strength and conditioning coach
Truly sports science work

“ We integrate all of the variables, sport coaching, strength and conditioning, sports medicine, nutrition, the whole gamut. Incredible experience. ”‒ Mike Israetel

Mike got a PhD there and then taught at the University of Central Missouri for a while
Taught at Temple University in Philadelphia for a while
Then he went full depth into private industry founding RP This happened during the time he was in the PhD program
Sometime during the years at Temple, it became apparent that he was more productive not teaching because there was so much to do with the company
So he took some time away from teaching
Then he came back to teach under his friend Dr. Brad Schoenfeld Who’s the world expert scientifically in muscle hypertrophy Mike taught at his master’s program for a while
He left that recently to do private industry full time
This happened during the time he was in the PhD program
Who’s the world expert scientifically in muscle hypertrophy
Mike taught at his master’s program for a while

When did you start putting out these videos on YouTube ?

Peter only discovered them a couple years ago, but thinks he’s been doing this much longer
Mike started posting videos on YouTube in 2020 during peak COVID He records most of his YouTube videos at his home studio If he drops the “C word”, the video guy’s like, “ Different take .” They one-take almost everything and that they will roll back The algorithm will flag it and put a COVID warning
He records most of his YouTube videos at his home studio
If he drops the “C word”, the video guy’s like, “ Different take .”
They one-take almost everything and that they will roll back The algorithm will flag it and put a COVID warning
The algorithm will flag it and put a COVID warning

Mike’s transition from powerlifting to bodybuilding, and his scientific and artistic approach to sculpting muscle and optimizing aesthetics [9:15]

Going back to your personal evolution as you’re going through this journey of master’s, PhD, industry, are you still focusing on powerlifting personally?

Mike was focused on powerlifting up until he got into the Master’s program
Towards the end of undergrad he picked up a muscle magazine at the grocery store Flex Magazine had an issue that summarized the prior 2002 Mr. Olympia contest with all the pictures of the bodybuilders Ronnie won again; that was his 4th or 5th time winning Mr. Olympia and he didn’t look his best
Flex Magazine had an issue that summarized the prior 2002 Mr. Olympia contest with all the pictures of the bodybuilders Ronnie won again; that was his 4th or 5th time winning Mr. Olympia and he didn’t look his best
Ronnie won again; that was his 4th or 5th time winning Mr. Olympia and he didn’t look his best

Everyone suspected Jay Cutler could have beat him if he showed up that year (He almost beat him in 2001)

Figure 1. Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman. Image credit: M&F

Mike remembers reading the magazine and looking at the pictures ‒ it was enlightening because Mike realized he had an eye for aesthetics
Some people will see muscular physiques and they kind of all look the same, like giant veiny, overcooked hot dogs (which is not wrong)
Mike looked at the physiques and he was really taken aback, especially by some of them [It was a feeling akin to what] normal people get when they look at very good art: that whoa, I’m looking at something very special, something that’s emotive
[It was a feeling akin to what] normal people get when they look at very good art: that whoa, I’m looking at something very special, something that’s emotive

That’s when Mike started to pursue his own hypertrophy training (muscle growth training)

What were you looking like at the time?

He was roughly 190 lbs. at 5’ 6” Fairly lean, but not anything crazy and so muscular If he had clothes on, people would be like, “ Oh, it’s just a short person. ” But shirtless, he looked like he had clearly lifted weights for some time
Fairly lean, but not anything crazy and so muscular
If he had clothes on, people would be like, “ Oh, it’s just a short person. ”
But shirtless, he looked like he had clearly lifted weights for some time

Mike shares, “ I really also realized that while there’s a huge passion for me in lifting heavy, I also had a passion for getting pumps and doing higher reps and doing lots of volume and seeing my body change visually. That was a huge trip. ”

Then it became this thing where he was an artist in muscle growth and fat loss
His canvas was his own body, and he wanted to learn how to sculpt it very well

“ Most selfishly, just so I could occupy a super hero looking body. ”‒ Mike Israetel

He ended up looking more like a villain; balding will do that

It was a real personal journey for him at first and still is

By comparison, what do you weigh right now?

235 lbs., substantially lean
Later, we’ll talk a lot about bodybuilding and cycles

Are you in a cycle now? And if so, are you on the way up or on the way down in terms of mass?

Mike is at the top of where he’ll be for a little bit (maybe up, but very slowly)
This is roughly the fattest he’ll get
Peter jokes, “ I didn’t want to say anything Mike, but yeah, you’re looking a little chubby. ” Mike replies, “ Looking pretty fat. Yeah, I’ll cry about it later .”
Mike replies, “ Looking pretty fat. Yeah, I’ll cry about it later .”

If you had to guess your body fat right now

It would be maybe 9ish%

Figure 2. Mike Israetel . Image credit: Team Fullrom

Mike still has some striations in his glutes
He has one of the least aesthetic physiques imaginable (thank you genetics for that one)
He also gained a ton of weight earlier in his career that was muscle and fat, and it stretched his skin out and gave him massive love handles When you lose that weight, the skin is still sticking around He’s planning on some extensive cosmetic surgery in a few months to address that issue
When you lose that weight, the skin is still sticking around
He’s planning on some extensive cosmetic surgery in a few months to address that issue

For Mike, the whole journey fundamentally is a personal journey of wanting to occupy a body that is 2 things

1- A body that he aesthetically enjoys being in
2 – body that he had a large hand in creating or curating
The curation is almost as fun as the creation You see an artist draw something on a canvas and a huge amount of joy comes from creating the main arc of everything you’re doing (the main shapes, main lines, main coloring) But you know when artists have something almost complete and they do a little pencil in pencil there? Once you have something that looks amazing and you’re optimizing, oh, there’s something super beautiful about that It’s like watching someone take a very finely tuned F1 car and just wrench a couple of the screws in and polish it off (it’s just so beautiful)
Mike shares, “ Not that my body is attractive, it’s not… but less grotesque is what I’m aiming for, and I don’t know if it’s working or not. My hairiness kind of precludes any of that. ”
When Peter thinks of an artist mucking around with a canvas, he only thinks of Bob Ross because he doesn’t have much experience watching an artist create something Usually he’s seeing the finished product
You see an artist draw something on a canvas and a huge amount of joy comes from creating the main arc of everything you’re doing (the main shapes, main lines, main coloring)
But you know when artists have something almost complete and they do a little pencil in pencil there?
Once you have something that looks amazing and you’re optimizing, oh, there’s something super beautiful about that
It’s like watching someone take a very finely tuned F1 car and just wrench a couple of the screws in and polish it off (it’s just so beautiful)
Usually he’s seeing the finished product

Figure 3. Bob Ross . Image Credit: Wikipedia

But like most people who grew up in the 70s and 80s, Peter recalls watching Bob Ross on Saturday mornings with great fondness ‒ he made it look so easy
Not only did he make it look so easy, he’s communicating an empowerment about creating art Everybody could be doing this
He’s like, “ You see this cloud in the way, we’re going to make it a tree. ”
If Mike had to describe his physique and genetics, it would be like a lot of Bob Ross style having to fix things that are like, oh, that looks terrible
Everybody could be doing this

The value of strength training, time efficiency, and how it differs from endurance training [14:45]

To bring this up to present, right now Mike competes in bodybuilding and he provides a lot of education to folks
Peter’s audience is clearly interested in exercise, strength training, and the aesthetics of strength training
It’s very easy to look at bodybuilders and say, “ That’s a little odd .”
What is obvious is that’s just a spectrum

“ Anybody who wants to have more muscle and less fat probably has something they can learn from a bodybuilder. ”‒ Peter Attia

There’s probably no athlete, there’s no person out there that truly understands how to manipulate exercise and nutrition in the context of body composition [than a bodybuilder] And that’s true even in the presence of anabolic steroids Anabolic steroids might make that a little easier (which they will talk about later)
And that’s true even in the presence of anabolic steroids
Anabolic steroids might make that a little easier (which they will talk about later)

Where do you see the value of strength training?

Do you think that there is a diminishing return in the amount of muscle at some point?

Peter has said very tongue in cheek that the list of 90-year-olds out there complaining, wishing they were not as strong and not as muscular is a very short list
Most people at the end of life are saying the exact opposite, “ I wish I was stronger, I wish I had more muscle. ”

Are there extremes that people should be mindful of?

If you have to be mindful of extremes, in almost every case you have already been on a multi-years-long, very immersive, very infatuated, very disciplined journey of resistance training and focused nutrition and the organization of many variables and parts of your life around that task
It’s unlikely to be something you pick up a lifting hobby and just find yourself excessively muscular (oops) The myth of accidental muscle
Almost nobody accidentally becomes hyper muscular to the extent that they’re on that side of the spectrum, that trade-offs are starting to become apparent
The myth of accidental muscle

Probably the biggest trade-off in the short to medium term is opportunity cost: things you could have spent doing outside of being in the gym

⇒ The way the science of resistance training works is for almost all of the health benefits and the longevity benefits and the quality of life benefits, the amount of time you need to be training per week is measured in the 1-3 hour range (with 3 being like you’re really full sending it)

If you went on ChatGPT and asked for a list of all the things the typical American does for X number of hours a week The top 100 time use cases
You may find that 1-3 hours is somewhere in the 50 or 60 rank
There’s so many things that people do that are way more than that Social media consumption, TV, the list goes on
The top 100 time use cases
Social media consumption, TV, the list goes on

If you really fully invest yourself, it’s going to take some time

It could take 8 hours a week
People will jog for 40 minutes every morning and not think anything of it, and then when you present to them the idea of resistance training, they’re like, “ Well, now that’s going to take some time. ”

⇒ Actually, it does not take nearly as much time because the intensity of the effort is so grotesquely high and the recovery demands are so high that you have to be very pulsatile with it

It’s not something you have to do every day

“ Probably the biggest return on investment the average person can make is to train for roughly half an hour two times a week, Monday and Thursday. ”‒ Mike Israetel

If you do it properly, it can comport an unbelievable amount of benefits across the board

For most people, the consideration that they can begin to do this excessively, it’s just not something realistic until and unless they’re really into it, like a huge hobby

Mikes analogy

If you are watching Formula One for 30 minutes a day every other day on your phone, realistic considerations of this is taking up too much of your time is out the window
Now if you start canceling podcast guests because you’re following the circuit around the world and staying in five-star hotels and booking the hyper rich guy suite for all the races Someone could say you’re really into this You’re like, “ Nonsense. It’s only costing me 3 million a year. ” (then, yes) But it’s obvious when you’re going to be so involved You don’t just walk into that sort of thing
Someone could say you’re really into this
You’re like, “ Nonsense. It’s only costing me 3 million a year. ” (then, yes)
But it’s obvious when you’re going to be so involved
You don’t just walk into that sort of thing

Peter’s takeaway

Spending 8 hours a week on strength training is at the upper limits of what a person might do
Conversely, if your goal is to be a really good endurance athlete, you’re not at that level if you’re only putting in 8 hours a week A world-class cyclist is probably on their bike 30 hours a week (full-time job) Of course not all of that is at maximum intensity, probably 70-80% of that time is going to be at Zone 2
A world-class cyclist is probably on their bike 30 hours a week (full-time job)
Of course not all of that is at maximum intensity, probably 70-80% of that time is going to be at Zone 2

Yet there’s something very different about strength training, which is are you really getting benefit at the equivalent of whatever we would call Zone 2 in the gym?

Is this just where the comparison between cardiopulmonary training, where there’s a clear benefit from submaximal efforts and strength training don’t jive?

That’s definitely the case
Mike likes to use the term resistance training : it’s the term for going into the gym and applying things to your muscles

⇒ Hypertrophy and strength are outputs of resistance training

You can get some benefits from very submaximal efforts
But resistance training is based on applying high forces and high levels of fatigue as its primary modality of how it makes you better And so it’s when you get into that world, that’s what’s going to happen
Analogy : if you’re trying to be a special operator, eventually a Navy SEAL type of person, the sound of gunfire freaks you out, you’re in the wrong place
And so it’s when you get into that world, that’s what’s going to happen

We get almost all the benefits from pushing either very heavy loads or lighter loads, but very close to muscular failure

Which people have described as unpleasant, a burn in the muscle, a lot of pain
The weights slow down, so it takes a lot of psychological effort to keep going
There is not really an equivalent of just getting on the bike and putting in the miles Getting to a pace where Zone 2 you can breathe, you can talk a little bit still
That’s not weight training, but precisely because weight training is so intensive, you need lots of recovery time between sessions and you can do lots of disruption and damage in each session
Also the total yield on how much it changes your physiology is very high for each session and per unit time
That means if you’re not working super hard per any one unit time, you’re going to need a lot of work (that’s endurance training)
If you’re working insanely hard per unit time, you won’t need a lot of work Nor can you recover from that much work Which is why the top end is 8 or 10 hours for even professional bodybuilders, of time spent in the gym every week
Getting to a pace where Zone 2 you can breathe, you can talk a little bit still
Nor can you recover from that much work
Which is why the top end is 8 or 10 hours for even professional bodybuilders, of time spent in the gym every week

“ For people that just want the basic benefits, yeah, we’re talking about an hour or two hours a week, and that’s really all you need if you’re pushing sufficiently hard. ”‒ Mike Israetel

Realistically, you can recover for more if you make time in your schedule and really prioritize recover

Peter asks, “ Do you think this is simply a consequence of the fact that endurance training relies more on type I muscle fibers and strength and hypertrophy training are more dependent on the actions of type II fibers? ”

Peter thinks this is such an interesting contrast in how optimization of [cardio training] is a totally different philosophy than [resistance training]
The reason he is harping on this is he knows when you take people who are used to doing endurance training, it’s a hard switch for them to adopt what Mike just said

Is the best way to explain to that person the why, that’s the difference between a type I and a type II fiber ?

That is probably a core difference
Mikes adds 2 other things you can put into that equation
1 – The physical forces are much higher in magnitude You’re going to be putting a lot of tension through your connective tissues and through your muscles when you’re resistance training than you are when you’re doing bicycle work, for example With high absolute forces, the proximate damage and disruption to the body is graded exponentially and not linearly
Analogy : it’s like if a wiffle ball flies past you, you might not even hear it If a 50 caliber bullet flies past you, it’s going to tear parts of you off and it’s never even touched you Very, very different amount of damage from much, much higher forces
2 – Some combination of neural and psychological drive, the kind of drive it requires to be good at endurance, at least the base building part, the aerobic base work that you do is kind of being in a state of calm equanimity You get your flow going, you get your music going, you get your breathing going, you look at the road ahead of you and you can just crank
But in lifting, you have to turn up the juice to really feel the maximum situation
You’re going to be putting a lot of tension through your connective tissues and through your muscles when you’re resistance training than you are when you’re doing bicycle work, for example
With high absolute forces, the proximate damage and disruption to the body is graded exponentially and not linearly
If a 50 caliber bullet flies past you, it’s going to tear parts of you off and it’s never even touched you
Very, very different amount of damage from much, much higher forces
You get your flow going, you get your music going, you get your breathing going, you look at the road ahead of you and you can just crank

Another quick analogy offhand

If you are a trillionaire (like Mike) and you have a fleet of Cessna private aircraft at your beck and call
When you fly a Cessna , you can fly it for some time It requires a decent amount of maintenance, but it’ll fly for a long time
It’s just never getting up to velocities that are really crazy
If you take an SR-71 Blackbird out for a spin at Mach 3, you have to do 10 times the number of maintenance hours per flight hour on that thing or something to that magnitude Because at Mach 3, what’s happening to the plane is just running through subsequent brick walls That’s what 3x the sound barrier is like: you’re just rattling that thing into dust
When you’re pushing your body really hard and the weights are slowing down and their sets of 5 or sets of 8 or sets of 10, your body’s very close to its limits
Both your faster twitch muscle fibers (which are required) take way more damage
They’re also not as well proliferated with blood supply and they heal slower
And the amount of absolute force is higher and the amount of neural drive it takes
In contrast, you can hop on a bike for an hour at Zone 2 every day and afterwards people are like, are you tired? And you’re like a little bit, I kind of feel also a little bit refreshed in a sense
You don’t really feel refreshed after grinding the leg press for 5 sets of 15 You feel like someone beat the crap out of you (and you don’t owe anyone money)
It requires a decent amount of maintenance, but it’ll fly for a long time
Because at Mach 3, what’s happening to the plane is just running through subsequent brick walls
That’s what 3x the sound barrier is like: you’re just rattling that thing into dust
And you’re like a little bit, I kind of feel also a little bit refreshed in a sense
You feel like someone beat the crap out of you (and you don’t owe anyone money)

That absolute intensity of lifting and high relative intensity, that’s what tends to make the big, big fatigue cost

Neurological fatigue in strength training: balancing recovery and pushing the limits [26:15]

Can you say more about the neural part of this?

Peter agrees with everything Mike said, and the neural component is what he knows the least about
Which is you cannot discount the CNS fatigue literally that comes from doing this type of work
As an example, Peter remembers watching sprinters train If you study the mechanics of sprinting, you realize it really comes down to force per unit mass That’s how hard they can hit the ground with their foot relative to their mass These are athletes who need to be almost comically strong without gaining any excess weight Even though we look at sprinters and think they’re very muscular, it’s their strength to weight that’s really profound
They have to train in a way that minimizes hypertrophy and maximizes strength
For example, they’ll focus heavily on exercises where they can push the concentric phase and not the eccentric phase
It was explained to Peter that doing this allowed them to spare themselves from some of the neurological fatigue
If you study the mechanics of sprinting, you realize it really comes down to force per unit mass
That’s how hard they can hit the ground with their foot relative to their mass
These are athletes who need to be almost comically strong without gaining any excess weight
Even though we look at sprinters and think they’re very muscular, it’s their strength to weight that’s really profound

Is there any validity to that?

What’s happening in both the central and peripheral nervous system during the recovery phase?

Mike is glad Peter brought up the peripheral nervous system
One of the big misconceptions is that there’s muscular fatigue, connective tissue, systemic fatigue, blood vessels and everything still left the heart has to pump

⇒ The peripheral nervous system is a thing too, and it also takes a substantial amount of fatigue

Mike explains, “ The nervous system takes fatigue and it takes fatigue in the same way you would expect any system that’s pushed those limits to take, various components of it, experience, wear and tear, various substrates depleted and need to be repleted. ”

2 examples

1 – In the axon of any single given nerve, you have a balance of electrolytes inside and outside, which allows the proliferation of the electrical signal
You run that system long and hard enough and it starts to get out of whack to where you try to get another impulse going and it’s like, ugh
It needs to do a lot of pumping to take what’s supposed to be inside the cell that’s now outside the cell to get back in there to a level of concentration that would be fully recovered
Typically that happens quickly, but if you run that system a lot, there are various points at which some of the structures that are supposed to do that (they’re also proteins), you use them enough and they start to kind of break a little bit And you need to produce more proteins to replace the channels themselves that do that pumping back and forth
Typically, that protein construction is measured on the order of minutes, hours and days (not seconds)
Analogy : you could imagine it as like a transatlantic cable You throw enough current through a cable and the fish nibble at the cable enough, you need to start replacing the cable Now if you’re really, really using the crap out of that cable, yeah, it’s going to undergo some not so great things
The closer neuron junctions (or the neuromuscular junction between the neuron and the muscle itself), you have vesicles of neurotransmitters You pump enough of those in, you get the cool stuff of communication You can run low on a neurotransmitter, and then the electrical signal arrives and neurotransmitter is like, sorry, not enough of us to do anything Unless you experience fatigue expressed as weakness and you need time to reconstruct a lot of those neurotransmitters, place them into vesicles, have those vesicles translocate to the synaptic cleft, and then sit there and get ready And that is a process that typically happens rapidly, but if you really exhaust it, can happen over some time
A really austere illustration of that is ecstasy He’s never done this, just heard about it If you clear enough of that neurotransmitter, you don’t feel the same the next day You feel different and it takes a day or 2 to get back up to those levels
Similar types of mechanisms are at work when you are going to very close to true failure on let’s say a squat or a leg press You’re cooking your muscles It takes every single capacity of the nervous system to say push, push, push is at maximum And so you end up doing quite a bit of homeostatic disruption all the way along the axon, all the way through the cell body and in the synaptic cleft neurotransmitters getting everywhere, gunk building up That’s going to take some time to fix, which is why we see typically that people don’t regain their prior strength after fatiguing and resistance exercise for anywhere from several hours to several days (depending on how hard you go)
And you need to produce more proteins to replace the channels themselves that do that pumping back and forth
You throw enough current through a cable and the fish nibble at the cable enough, you need to start replacing the cable
Now if you’re really, really using the crap out of that cable, yeah, it’s going to undergo some not so great things
You pump enough of those in, you get the cool stuff of communication
You can run low on a neurotransmitter, and then the electrical signal arrives and neurotransmitter is like, sorry, not enough of us to do anything
Unless you experience fatigue expressed as weakness and you need time to reconstruct a lot of those neurotransmitters, place them into vesicles, have those vesicles translocate to the synaptic cleft, and then sit there and get ready
And that is a process that typically happens rapidly, but if you really exhaust it, can happen over some time
He’s never done this, just heard about it
If you clear enough of that neurotransmitter, you don’t feel the same the next day
You feel different and it takes a day or 2 to get back up to those levels
You’re cooking your muscles
It takes every single capacity of the nervous system to say push, push, push is at maximum
And so you end up doing quite a bit of homeostatic disruption all the way along the axon, all the way through the cell body and in the synaptic cleft neurotransmitters getting everywhere, gunk building up
That’s going to take some time to fix, which is why we see typically that people don’t regain their prior strength after fatiguing and resistance exercise for anywhere from several hours to several days (depending on how hard you go)

⇒ If you have really, really hard workouts, it might take several days for you to be able to have a really, really hard workout again for that same muscle group

Luckily, because a lot of this is peripheral nervous system based and local musculature based, if you train the living crap out of your chest one day and your triceps, you can train back and biceps, which have nothing much to do with those movements pretty robustly the next day

Much of the fatigue is local

It’s not all local: the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord), specifically the brain has a variety of mechanisms by which it controls your central fatigue
Tim Noakes was a big proponent of the central governor model Though in the explicit terms, which he described might not be the case or somewhat close There’s absolutely central governing going on, and when your body can tell through a variety of mechanisms that like, pretty messed up here, it’s going to pull back on how hard you can do anything Some of those neural structures might even be operating at full bore, but they’re just degraded enough to where full capacity isn’t full capacity anymore
In all those variety of ways (and many others) your body after accumulating a certain amount of fatigue will need to back off
Mike adds, “ If you think you can train ultra hard for the same muscles twice a day every day, you are welcome to try it (in medical supervised context), you won’t last. ”
Though in the explicit terms, which he described might not be the case or somewhat close
There’s absolutely central governing going on, and when your body can tell through a variety of mechanisms that like, pretty messed up here, it’s going to pull back on how hard you can do anything
Some of those neural structures might even be operating at full bore, but they’re just degraded enough to where full capacity isn’t full capacity anymore

It’s really good that we have a break planned in, but it’s also really cool because weight training is one of those things where you get a dose of it and for days after under the hood, it’s upgrading your body, your nervous system, your muscles, and your tendons

“ It’s really neat that you can do 20 or 30 minutes of intense physical activity and resistance training and then for days later be experiencing the actual accrued benefits. ”‒ Mike Israetel

When you’re entering the gym, if you’re training properly, you are asking a lot of your physiology You are pushing it to its limits
If you’re not, you’re not using your time best and you’re not getting the best outcomes
You are pushing it to its limits

⇒ A lot of the absolute best results come from pushing very, very hard (not necessarily to limits, but you have to test the limits)

Peter finds it interesting what he could do up to a certain age He stopped pushing to those limits at about age 19
What he could get away with then was ridiculous
He attributes it to 2 things
1 – Youth, stupidity and inexperience
2 – Having started at a very young age
From age 13-19 he was training 6 hours every day except Sunday Sundays he only trained 2 hours per day
He looks back at those workouts he did and doesn’t know how he did it
More importantly, how much better he could have been if he didn’t train that much
It wouldn’t be uncommon for Peter to do 6 super hard rounds of sparring with 3 fresh opponents, one guy, a weight class below him, one guy in his weight class, and then one guy for 2 rounds, a weight class above him
Mike agrees that Peter did that backwards
It was much harder and more dangerous to do it in that way The idea that the guy that could hit the hardest was his last guy When he was the most fatigued and his defenses were less accurate
He stopped pushing to those limits at about age 19
Sundays he only trained 2 hours per day
The idea that the guy that could hit the hardest was his last guy
When he was the most fatigued and his defenses were less accurate

The relationship between training intensity and volume, why muscle growth is not linear, and how different approaches affect results [35:00]

Peter’s highlights Mike’s super important point

The non-linearity of force is very counterintuitive
It’s not obvious why being on a bike is nothing compared to doing an all-out set for 10 reps in the gym [with weights] Even riding at a very high level of power: a 1-minute all-out on the bike is nothing compared to when you’re doing an all-out set for 10 reps in the gym Remember on a bike, your leg is going around at 90 times per minute A 1-minute all-out is 90 reps It’s such a difference in force
He loves the example of the wiffle ball going by you versus a 50 caliber bullet
This idea of the profound level of difference in tissue destruction is an important one
Peter was on Dorian Yates podcast a few months ago, he explains, “ Poor Dorian, he wanted to interview me because it was his podcast, but I just wanted to interview him. ” It was very interesting how little time he spent in the gym for a bodybuilder of that era It was very progressive: he was doing 1 set to failure per exercise, and he was doing each body part once a week
Even riding at a very high level of power: a 1-minute all-out on the bike is nothing compared to when you’re doing an all-out set for 10 reps in the gym Remember on a bike, your leg is going around at 90 times per minute A 1-minute all-out is 90 reps
It’s such a difference in force
Remember on a bike, your leg is going around at 90 times per minute
A 1-minute all-out is 90 reps
It was very interesting how little time he spent in the gym for a bodybuilder of that era
It was very progressive: he was doing 1 set to failure per exercise, and he was doing each body part once a week

Are most people even capable of pushing that hard?

For a person who just wants to train 30 minutes twice a day [Peter meant to say twice a week], they can get all the benefit in the world, but there’s an asterisk there, which is that 30 minutes twice a week is going to be the most difficult 60 minutes total of your week?

For Dorian , why could he produce such a massive physique?

Figure 4. Dorian Yates . Image credit: M&F

(They will talk about drugs later)
Is it just the sort of thing where virtually nobody can actually push that hard, that consistently?
Or was it just that nobody thought to do it the way he was doing it at the time?
Plenty of people thought that’s how it works
Mike Mentzer did that only in a more extreme version than even Dorian did
Lots of Mentzer acolytes did it

It’s not the most efficient or the most effective way to train, but it is quite effective because if you go very close to failure with very heavy loads, all of the subcomponents of your musculature, all your motor units

Which is the motor neuron and all of the cells that it activates, they’ll get recruited and they will be asked to work to their limits
They’ll take on a great deal of damage and disruption
They’ll sense a ton of tension and they’ll produce great results for you

The other thing is that the relationship between both intensity and volume of how much you do work in the gym, especially volume is curvilinear and hyperbolic

⇒ It means if you do one all-out heard set per muscle group per week, you get maybe something like 30% of what you could have gotten with 5 sets because your body has very good sensing mechanisms for tension and metabolites and all these other things that cause muscle growth

Which is not what Dorian did , he did roughly 14 of those per week per muscle group
When the body detects that you’re pushing on the pedal, it’ll give you a real good wallop of result
But, when you keep pushing on the same pedal over and over, the systems are greatly desensitized to giving you more muscle growth The biggest reason is probably because the human body is attuned and evolved to an environment called food insecurity And so in order to make a real good case for allocating that much to muscle growth, you’re going to have to have a real distinct signal to ask your body to put more and more into that process
If you are myostatin deficient , you grow muscle all the time
The biggest reason is probably because the human body is attuned and evolved to an environment called food insecurity
And so in order to make a real good case for allocating that much to muscle growth, you’re going to have to have a real distinct signal to ask your body to put more and more into that process

Mike’s summary of the relationship between number of hard sets and muscle growth

You do 1 set close to failure, you get a lot of gains
You do 3 sets close to failure, you get substantially more gains (but not 3x as many)
You do 5 sets close to failure and you do just a little bit better than 3
You do 7 or 8 sets close to failure in one workout and it’s statistically undifferentiable from 5

If you want to do not a ton of volume for any 1 muscle, if you work really hard and bring yourself very close to failure, you can do super, super well with that alone

Mike’s chef analogy

If you have someone who really knows how to make food and you give them 1 hour in the kitchen with a variety of menu items, they can really wow you with what you’re eating
Give them 3 hours, and they can wow you more, but it’s not 3x more
It’s going to take a lot longer to produce 3x more the “wow”
With 3 hours, they can make a difference, but probably only people who are very culinarily attuned can tell

⇒ Getting some of the way to your body’s maximum ability actually brings you most of the way as far as results

And that’s why Dorian could do what he did

Sustainable and effective approaches to maximizing muscle growth: training close to failure while minimizing fatigue [40:00]

What Dorian did

He did roughly 14 sets per week per muscle group-ish
That gets into the territory of a very robust signal of growth to the muscle
It’s not the highest signal of growth because fatigue isn’t just local (its systemic) If you decided not to train your legs very hard or your back very hard, the amount of systemic fatigue is much lower Then you could push your arms, shoulders, and chest to 25, 30, 35 sets per week and experience more growth enhancement (as compared to those 15 sets per week)
But 15 sets a week might bring you to 70 or 85% of what all of those muscles could eventually have hypertrophied if you only ever specialized in them
If you decided not to train your legs very hard or your back very hard, the amount of systemic fatigue is much lower
Then you could push your arms, shoulders, and chest to 25, 30, 35 sets per week and experience more growth enhancement (as compared to those 15 sets per week)

Dorian was insanely jacked all over, but in retrospect he could have benefited from more specialization phases on various weak points

“ By immortal standards they were the biggest arms you’ve ever seen in your life .”‒ Mike Israetel

By competitive bodybuilders of his era standards, relative to the rest of his physique, he could’ve had bigger arms, bigger shoulders He could’ve poured more volume into those muscle groups and lessened everything else
Dorian seemed to have an all-around approach
Mike adds, “ Up until about a year ago, so did I, and so I never looked very aesthetic, but boy were my legs super big because they could just eat up the growth all the time. ”
He could’ve poured more volume into those muscle groups and lessened everything else

If Dorian was doing 14 sets per body part per week, would that mean 14 sets to failure of 14 different exercises so we’re not counting the warm-up sets and things of that nature?

It’s not 100% clear exactly what Dorian did or if he even did everything exactly as it was written on paper all the time
In his training videos, you don’t always see just 1 set
He would also have this thing like a warm-up set that for him was a warm-up, but for most people would absolutely be a work set
So it may be more like 2 or 3 equivalents of a working set per exercise

Peter’s summarizes, “ There’s a total throwaway set and then there’s a modest set, and then there’s a two rep and reserve set that, again, that’s a real working show and then it’s a set to failure. ”

According to Dorian’s categorization the only work set was the one that was absolutely the true muscular failure sometimes with forced repetitions Which you would also have to integrate because forced reps is when someone helps you lift the rest of the weight Or if you do a drop set , you use less weight right after you went to failure We shouldn’t count that as just one set ‒ it wouldn’t be the most correct way to think about it
Which you would also have to integrate because forced reps is when someone helps you lift the rest of the weight
Or if you do a drop set , you use less weight right after you went to failure We shouldn’t count that as just one set ‒ it wouldn’t be the most correct way to think about it
We shouldn’t count that as just one set ‒ it wouldn’t be the most correct way to think about it

When you compare that to the example of the 3-hour chef, so now the person who’s willing to put in 30 sets per body part per week, do any of those sets need to be to failure or are you counting those as hey, these would be sets of 2 reps in reserve?

⇒ The literature has found that if you don’t systemically fatigue the whole body too much, you can push any given muscle (or several muscles) into the 30, 40, 50 set range per week

Almost every study done to elucidate that understanding was done with muscular failure studies, true failure Truer failure than you’ll see in the gym Most of us have never trained that hard consistently
In these studies, undergraduates are recreationally trained so they can neither do a lot of damage nor are they impeded by age and prior injury
They’re trained in laboratory conditions with master students screaming at them to keep going
Truer failure than you’ll see in the gym
Most of us have never trained that hard consistently

Whatever amount of sets you have to do to get a certain amount of growth, you can get there in a few different ways

You can get there with let’s say 30 sets that are 4 reps shy of failure
You can get there with 22 sets that are 1 or 2 reps shy of failure
You can get there with 20 sets that are all the way to absolute muscular failure

If you are really training not so super hard for reps in reserve, you’ll have to do substantially more sets to see the same hypertrophy

“ Study after study after study illustrates that when you’re getting one or two reps away from failure, it is often statistically undifferentiable on raw growth than going all the way to failure. ”‒ Mike Israetel

However, the fatigue of true failure training is exponentially higher Probably because of that nervous system component
As far as a training strategy for efficiency and long-term sustainability, most of your sessions should be 1 or 2 reps in reserve
If you’re doing dumbbell presses you finish your last rep and you think you could’ve done 1 or 2 more, but that’s it ‒ it’s best to stop
What you’re getting into if you do more is a 10:1 fatigue:stimulus ratio Whereas everything before was 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 5:1 [ratio of fatigue:stimulus]
Probably because of that nervous system component
Whereas everything before was 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 5:1 [ratio of fatigue:stimulus]

That’s a lot of fatigue cost to pay when the literature says the results will end up being a tiny bit better or not better at all

Peter adds, “ Which says nothing of the risk of injury when you drop that dumbbell on your pec… when you fail in a set of dumbbell presses… I would never know. ”

Mike’s take is that the vast proportion of people that really propose that training to failure is somehow special for results, they didn’t reason their way into that They emoted their way into that
Training to failure is something the 13 to 19-year-old you would’ve really found a lot of spirit energy in
They emoted their way into that

Mike adds, “ It’s adult male putting on his hat of ‘I’m a mountain goat and I run into shit. That’s what I do.”

Mike saw an adorable video of some goats and dogs A pit bull was sitting under this little thing, and there’s a teenage goat that’s looking at him The goat jumps up on his hind legs and tries to hit the dog in the head The pit bull backs up, and the goat just tries to do that again The goat just wants to hit stuff
So when you’re a young male, you’re prone to wanting success for yourself, you’re the type-A personality ‒ you couldn’t live with yourself if you weren’t optimally successful in life because you didn’t work hard enough
Those kinds of folks generally tend to go to muscular failure for just that spirit energy (it feels right, damn it)
From the sport experience, when you’re really, really tired, your whole existence is screaming at you to stop
Ignoring those things and going all the way until you’ve pushed it as far as your body can go, there’s something very magical there for the soul
A pit bull was sitting under this little thing, and there’s a teenage goat that’s looking at him
The goat jumps up on his hind legs and tries to hit the dog in the head
The pit bull backs up, and the goat just tries to do that again
The goat just wants to hit stuff

For results in the gym, there’s not much magical there ‒ you have to get close to it, you just don’t have to go all the way

An efficient and effective resistance training program for beginners with limited time [49:00]

That person is clinging to what Mike said earlier: you can get really good results if you spend 30 minutes in the gym, twice a week

Tell me what that program looks like for a young person

A young person who has been somewhat active throughout their life, but mostly in sports Tennis, cross-country, but they’ve never been a gym rat
They’d like to have some hypertrophy and want to look a little better
They’re 40-years-old and a little intimidated
Tennis, cross-country, but they’ve never been a gym rat

Mike explains what week 1 could look like, and it’s not the same every single week

⇒ For simplicity, say your training on Monday and Thursday

You want some symmetry You don’t want to train with weights on Monday and Tuesday and then spend time on other things for the rest of the week
You want to train every major muscle group on Monday and Thursday
Routines that have the muscle group separated are called split-routines : chest 1 day, back the next Mostly pro-bodybuilders are the only ones that benefit from that, and there’s a lot of nuance about how to execute it
You don’t want to train with weights on Monday and Tuesday and then spend time on other things for the rest of the week
Mostly pro-bodybuilders are the only ones that benefit from that, and there’s a lot of nuance about how to execute it

Whole body training is probably best for almost everyone who is trying to get the health benefits, longevity benefits, the aesthetic benefits

You want to conserve time, but you want a high degree of effect
Choose lifts
Choose exercises that involve 2 components
1 – Exercises that train large muscle masses You’re not going to be doing a lot of forearm curls or tibialis anterior calf raises You’re going to be training muscles like the quadriceps, the glutes, the hamstrings, the musculature of the back, the chest, the shoulders, the arms
2 – Exercises that train more than 1 muscle at a time
Then we’re using muscles very efficiently because we’re pushing multiple muscles to their limits in one exercise
This is generally going to be compound movements , multi-joint movements, things like pull-ups , pull-downs , barbell and dumbbell bent over rows They engage almost every muscle in the back and the forearm flexion muscles, the biceps
You do 1 set of bicep curls (Mikes does 1 set of underhand pull-ups) and you got your videos and 3 other muscles checked off
One of Mike’s pet peeves is to see personal trainers training a housewife who’s 55, and having her do rear deltoid cable fly one at a time (waste of time) Was there some kind of physique show which the judges said she needs bigger rear delts, but nothing else?
Other compound movements: close grip bench presses , push-ups , overhead presses , upright rows , squats , deadlifts
You’re not going to be doing a lot of forearm curls or tibialis anterior calf raises
You’re going to be training muscles like the quadriceps, the glutes, the hamstrings, the musculature of the back, the chest, the shoulders, the arms
They engage almost every muscle in the back and the forearm flexion muscles, the biceps
Was there some kind of physique show which the judges said she needs bigger rear delts, but nothing else?

Compound movements are insanely time efficient because you train your whole upper body in a few exercises

Mike adds, “ If you do some kind of rowing machine, you do some kind of machine or barbell or dumbbell, that’s a close grip press, you do some kind of upright row situation, then you’ve technically trained every single muscle in your upper body to a substantial extent because every single exercise trains three or four muscles at a time. ”

Peter asks, “ What about for the lower body besides a deadlift and a squat? ”

Various stiff-legged deadlifts or good morning ; RDL is the same category of movement
That trains your entire back, specifically your spinal erector musculature, which is insanely important for healthy aging
It trains your glutes, your hamstrings, your sartorius, parts of your adductors, and it actually trains your calves too
You integrate some kind of lunging pattern into that or some kind of squatting pattern Be it a hack squat , leg press , barbell squat , you name it, and all of a sudden you’ve run out of muscles to train in your lower body because everything has been done to a high degree of diligence
When Mike sees 45-year-old financial advisors who don’t have a lot of time doing leg extensions in the gym he always hopes they have a good reason to be doing those
Because if he’s not squatting or lunging or doing leg presses or something, he’s just using up time in the gym training one thing at a time for no good reason at all
Be it a hack squat , leg press , barbell squat , you name it, and all of a sudden you’ve run out of muscles to train in your lower body because everything has been done to a high degree of diligence

When this person’s coming into this situation and they don’t have a high training history, what are the tools you use to teach them how to do these compound movements safely, especially the lower body ones?

Squats and deadlifts are not going to be starting out with a ton of weight

⇒ Start with low weight

There’s no movement the human body can do which unloaded and not pushing the muscles and tendons to their extreme has any higher risk probability than any other movement
You can start with a deadlift or a squat that’s body weight or less
You can brace your arms on a Smith machine and unload yourself while you squat You take multiple sets like that that are very submaximal
Ideally, you’re with a personal trainer Because live communication about how to exercise is irreplaceable Your assessment of what you’re doing is very difficult
If not, you can use YouTube
You take multiple sets like that that are very submaximal
Because live communication about how to exercise is irreplaceable
Your assessment of what you’re doing is very difficult

⇒ RP has a huge library for free on YouTube and in the RP hypertrophy app

Every exercise you’ll ever see in there has a video demonstration one click away
If you’re working with a personal trainer, the first session is all about them taking you through movement patterns Fine gunning technique with lots of encouragement You’re not seeking perfection, just basic competency
You begin with 3-4 warm-up sets per exercise It’s a teaching session because they’ve never lifted heavy, never pushed to failure They’ll get sore and it’s enough tension and disruption that they will grow muscle
The next session you work through a different series of movements
The next week, you do the same workout A few technique oriented sets Then go for slightly more repetitions: instead of 5, maybe now it’s 10 Or you put a little bit of weight on the bar
Over time, slowly every week you increase the weight a little bit more
Several weeks later, your technique looks real good
Fine gunning technique with lots of encouragement
You’re not seeking perfection, just basic competency
It’s a teaching session because they’ve never lifted heavy, never pushed to failure
They’ll get sore and it’s enough tension and disruption that they will grow muscle
A few technique oriented sets
Then go for slightly more repetitions: instead of 5, maybe now it’s 10 Or you put a little bit of weight on the bar
Or you put a little bit of weight on the bar

Most people can learn really good techniques in a few weeks

“ That three or four week entry period is amazing because it takes the probability of injury and just almost completely eliminates it. ”‒ Mike Israetel

In that entry period you’re not just going in and seeing how strong you are on the 1st day (profoundly stupid)
After that easing in period, you’re now competent in the movements You feel competent as a member of general gym culture (you don’t feel lost)
You’re up to a weight and rep combination that’s challenging physiologically every set Not just neurologically challenging for how to do the technique
Over time you just increase the load on the bar a little bit
And if you’re no longer getting sore or really tired, you start increasing the number of working sets
Working sets wise, in the beginning you’re doing zero working sets ‒ they’re all practice sets Because you’re so untrained, they’re work sets for you, but not to anyone else
A few weeks after 2 work sets and so on until you’re doing anywhere between 3-6 working sets per exercise
You feel competent as a member of general gym culture (you don’t feel lost)
Not just neurologically challenging for how to do the technique
Because you’re so untrained, they’re work sets for you, but not to anyone else

There’s another twist here for the person that wants to save a lot of time and actually get some cardiovascular benefits as well

Pair exercises to train muscles are are mostly unrelated
For example: do a seated dumbbell shoulder press, rack those dumbbells and do some goblet squats or deadlifts There’s no muscle overlap whatsoever
You could do a nice hard set of seated dumbbell shoulder presses and sit for 1-2 minutes
Or if you’re really time conscious and you want extra cardiovascular benefit, you take 5-10 seconds, breathe/shake it out and hit the next working set for that paired exercise
While you’re doing the 2nd exercise, the muscles for the 1st exercise are recovering locally, and so when you’re done with the exercise 5 or 10 seconds later, it’s time for set 2 of the 1st exercise
There’s no muscle overlap whatsoever

You pair these unrelated exercises such that when you’ve done 4 sets of 1 exercise with a 2nd, then you’ve really done 8 total working sets and knocked off 80% of your entire upper body in the amount of time it takes to do a dumbbell press by itself (which only trains the front delts and triceps)

Another example: pair a close-grip bench press with a row or lat pull-down

Mike advises, “ Rest times in the gym (outside of getting a drink or just trying not to faint) are probably not your best friend if you’re just going for general health, general aesthetics, this kind of stuff, especially beginning. ”

You’re either working one muscle group or several with one exercise
Or you’re transitioning between exercises
Or you’re working the other one
Or you’re setting up your weights for your next machine that you’re going to be doing
Which means as soon as you get in and warm up, it’s go, go, go, back to back to back to back
You’re 5 or 10 seconds for transition, to catch your breath barely, you’re not going to be talking to a lot of people at the gym

That allows us to condense a lot of work into 30 minutes, and most people will need something like 15 to 30 total working sets for their whole body per session

You’re working almost the entire time

⇒ Generally it’s a good idea to do sets of 10 to 30 repetitions because those kinds of loads don’t need a ton of time to have your best performance

You can get good enough performances with a short time for recovery
And because it’s a lot of reps, not only does it get you very meaningful strength increases because the absolute load is lower, much lower injury risks
Look, you do one-rep maxes all the time, you’re going to have it coming one way or another

If you never touch a weight that’s heavier than a 10-rep max, the probability of an injury in one given set is much, much smaller; and because it’s a higher volume of work, you get a great hypertrophy stimulus and you get great cardiometabolic benefits

“ You do a set of 15 barbell squats followed by a set of 15 push-ups, your cardio’s working .”‒ Mike Israetel

Mike’s training prescription

You have 2 sessions like that per week (each one lasting 30 minutes)
You have 2 sessions of Zone 2/Zone 3 cardio where you’re really trying
4 sessions total per week, with good sleep and good body weight, good nutrition and you’re well on your way
If you look at the American College of Sports Medicine requirements of what constitutes rigorous physical activity, this combination adds up to a total of 2-3 hours of difficult physical activity a week
Mike gets it when people say, “ I don’t have time for exercise. ” He’s heard that when you have children time dilates like black hole tech stuff
He’s heard that when you have children time dilates like black hole tech stuff

⇒ You can probably make time at least for that resistance training session

Will it be ultra easy? No way It’s going to be really tough
Mike doesn’t train like that, he needs his break He’s trying to be lazy and scroll on Instagram between sets
But if you want to get the maximum results for the minimum amount of you, you’re working all the time
It’s going to be really tough
He’s trying to be lazy and scroll on Instagram between sets

Back to Mike’s advice

You start with 1 or 2 paired sets
Then you get up to 3 or 4 paired sets on 5-8 exercises per session and that’s a lot of work

It will train your entire body in one session and you will require 1-3 days of rest afterwards

You rest for 2 days and you come back
There’s 2 workouts in a week, and each one takes about half an hour
If you ever want the workouts to take less time, work faster and rest less
Yeah, it’s going to hurt
It’s going to be miserable, unless you accept the fact that you know all the benefits of endorphins and everything like that
It’s kind of like how do you become a millionaire? You’re very, very good at something You get very, very good people skills and you grind for years starting your empire
You’re very, very good at something
You get very, very good people skills and you grind for years starting your empire

This is going to be tough, but also there is now more and more research accumulating that doing difficult things physically is good for your mental health

There’s a lot of publicity lately on cold plunges, Huberman and all that stuff
A cold plunge because it’s so annoying, it makes you more grateful for the “not pain” you’re engaging in the rest of the day and it’s really good for you

Mike has a better one

You do a 30-minute session of back to back to back compound free motion or dumbbell or barbell or even machine work and sweat your balls off and huff, and puff ‒ the rest of the day seems like a breeze and the endorphin kick is massive
The cold plunge has some benefits, Mike is not entirely sold that they’re enormous in many cases

This kind of resistance exercise has benefits that if we just took one-by-one time to talk about on this podcast, we could talk about nothing else and do 4 podcasts in a row (that kind of massive benefit)

Advice for finding a good trainer [1:06:30]

What are the questions that a person can be asking when they go into their gym or are looking online for a trainer?

Peter points out that it’s hard enough to find a good doctor, and that’s a highly regulated industry
It’s probably even more difficult to figure out if a trainer is really good
You want a person to help you learn to do a squat and a deadlift safely
A person who can integrate whatever pre-existing injuries you have
Mike agrees, it’s very tough Because if you aren’t an expert or a very knowledgeable person yourself, it’s very difficult to figure out who is doing a good job
Mike has no idea how to measure a good doctor versus not a good doctor Most doctors are equally confident in telling you what they think is going on and very differentially accurate It’s a tough question
You want to chat with them and ask a few questions
These are all marginal pieces of advice; there’s no absolute
1 – The thing that comes close to the absolute of having a high guarantee that they’re good at what they do is if they’re certified in the Menno Henselmans PT course Menno is an expert in this field Trainers that he certifies have a high probability of being able to deliver to you what it is that you want out of them
There are other fine certifications out in the world, but a lot of certifications, if you are just reasonably intelligent and you studied for an hour and voila, you’re certified So the certification doesn’t go very far
2 – It helps if your trainer has an undergraduate in kinesiology or some related field That is not by itself ensuring you that they’re going to be good, but it sloughs off a lot of backend You’re going to get rid of a lot of not great trainers
3 – You can almost entirely ignore what they look like because the preponderance of the reason people look like they do is genetics The other is diet The other is just how long have they been doing stupid or smart things to their body So don’t just think a trainer knows what they’re doing because they’re ripped (he can’t give you his genetics)
4 – Understanding the scientific literature, especially just the broad strokes basics, and you’re probably in better hands than not If someone can explain to you the reasons for why you are doing certain things Ask them if it’s okay if you voice note, record them, and when you get home feed that into Claude 3.5 or GPT40 All these LLMs are designed to be insanely agreeable and very kind, but when you’re wrong, wrong, they’ll be like, “ That’s a good point, however… ” 8 point list Then you’ll know if they’re right or an idiot
5 – There’s a big factor of how you get along with the trainer You’re going to want to find the training ideally as pleasant as possible If the trainer is someone that you just kind of vibe with, they can dig into you and really get you going, but they’re also super fun to talk to outside of when you’re not dying during training If they can get you to become responsible for showing up on time in a sense of you and your trainer are on the same team Even if they’re not super evidence-based, they just get you in and get you moving: that’s half the battle right there
6 – Have a trainer for a few weeks, few months and see if they know things or not Some of your trainers will suck and you might need a few weeks, a few months to realize, “ Man, everything I’ve heard about how this whole process works, my trainer doesn’t even agree with me. ”
Analogy : the 1st car you buy might just be a thing that has a steering wheel and wheels and goes places And after you’ve appreciated what is you don’t like about your car, your next car could be a bit more of an educated purchase
Because if you aren’t an expert or a very knowledgeable person yourself, it’s very difficult to figure out who is doing a good job
Most doctors are equally confident in telling you what they think is going on and very differentially accurate
It’s a tough question
Menno is an expert in this field
Trainers that he certifies have a high probability of being able to deliver to you what it is that you want out of them
So the certification doesn’t go very far
That is not by itself ensuring you that they’re going to be good, but it sloughs off a lot of backend
You’re going to get rid of a lot of not great trainers
The other is diet
The other is just how long have they been doing stupid or smart things to their body
So don’t just think a trainer knows what they’re doing because they’re ripped (he can’t give you his genetics)
If someone can explain to you the reasons for why you are doing certain things
Ask them if it’s okay if you voice note, record them, and when you get home feed that into Claude 3.5 or GPT40 All these LLMs are designed to be insanely agreeable and very kind, but when you’re wrong, wrong, they’ll be like, “ That’s a good point, however… ” 8 point list
Then you’ll know if they’re right or an idiot
All these LLMs are designed to be insanely agreeable and very kind, but when you’re wrong, wrong, they’ll be like, “ That’s a good point, however… ” 8 point list
You’re going to want to find the training ideally as pleasant as possible
If the trainer is someone that you just kind of vibe with, they can dig into you and really get you going, but they’re also super fun to talk to outside of when you’re not dying during training
If they can get you to become responsible for showing up on time in a sense of you and your trainer are on the same team
Even if they’re not super evidence-based, they just get you in and get you moving: that’s half the battle right there
Some of your trainers will suck and you might need a few weeks, a few months to realize, “ Man, everything I’ve heard about how this whole process works, my trainer doesn’t even agree with me. ”
And after you’ve appreciated what is you don’t like about your car, your next car could be a bit more of an educated purchase

Troubleshooting training plateaus: optimizing exercise selection, intensity, and recovery for muscle growth [1:13:30]

Advice for the person who’s been lifting weights for a long time

This person is in the gym 3-4x a week (an hour at a time), but they’re not happy about their progress

Mike asks, “ How hard are they working? Are they really trying, or are we saying that maybe they’re trying, maybe they’re not? ”

It’s a very different answer if they’re trying or if they’re not

Let’s say they’re trying quite hard, and they want to be really jacked

You look at them and think they might be slightly over training
Let’s say they’re training the whole body 3 days a week and they’re in there 90 minutes at a time They’re going to 1 to 2 rep in reserve on every set They’re hitting 20 to 30 sets per body part per workout
They’re going to 1 to 2 rep in reserve on every set
They’re hitting 20 to 30 sets per body part per workout

Mike’s approach

1 – You would need to go down a a troubleshooting checklist On the RP Strength YouTube channel , there are multiple videos of how to troubleshoot your muscle growth , how to troubleshoot your diet , how to troubleshoot your recovery [ lack of progress ]
2 – You can consider yourself with variables that occur in the gym
3 – You can consider yourself with variables that occur outside of the gym
On the RP Strength YouTube channel , there are multiple videos of how to troubleshoot your muscle growth , how to troubleshoot your diet , how to troubleshoot your recovery [ lack of progress ]

Variables that occur in the gym

One variable is exercise selection For example if your arms aren’t as big as you want, and you’re only doing underhand pull-ups and close-group bench press Add in a few sets of curls and triceps extensions
For example if your arms aren’t as big as you want, and you’re only doing underhand pull-ups and close-group bench press
Add in a few sets of curls and triceps extensions

⇒ A lot of times people don’t have the specific exercise selection for what it is they want; they’re just doing general training

Another variable to consider is technique Some people have not so great technique Good technique involves putting the muscle into high force positions at a very deep stretch, long muscle lengths at high forces For example, doing pec flies but you’re only going all the way down to here when you need to open up like crazy and take a few seconds down there in the deep stretch Technique is so exercise specific and so individual that you really should get a qualified trainer, or someone you trust, or videos on your own analysis
Another question you have to ask is about volume and volume intensity If you’re hitting 2 reps in reserve, no need to improve above that But if you observed them and at the end of their set you asked them to do a few more, and they were consistently getting 4 more reps (4 reps in reserve), then they’re not hitting enough training stimulus This is an important one
Peter talked about this on Instagram and the point he wanted to make is that you don’t know what 2 resps in reserve means until you go to failure You have to fail many times to actually know how bad 2 reps in reserve is and 1 rep in reserve And they’re not the same every workout
Some people have not so great technique
Good technique involves putting the muscle into high force positions at a very deep stretch, long muscle lengths at high forces
For example, doing pec flies but you’re only going all the way down to here when you need to open up like crazy and take a few seconds down there in the deep stretch
Technique is so exercise specific and so individual that you really should get a qualified trainer, or someone you trust, or videos on your own analysis
If you’re hitting 2 reps in reserve, no need to improve above that
But if you observed them and at the end of their set you asked them to do a few more, and they were consistently getting 4 more reps (4 reps in reserve), then they’re not hitting enough training stimulus This is an important one
This is an important one
You have to fail many times to actually know how bad 2 reps in reserve is and 1 rep in reserve
And they’re not the same every workout

Peter adds, “ You fail at a different number of reps, but there’s like a signal, there’s a twitch, there’s a discomfort that you have to experience, but you can’t experience it until you blow past it. ”

In the RP app , there’s a good system to help you test the waters and determine that The app will ask you to put in your weights, roughly 10 to 20 rep maxes, and you’ll do as many reps as you think is 3 reps or 4 reps to failure, depending on what it’s wanting you to do, and you’ll write your repetitions in for every single set Maybe it’s 16 reps at 90 lbs. on this exercise The next week, the app auto programs a progression for you It’ll either ask you to do 17 reps at 90 lbs., or it’ll ask you to do 95 lbs. anew for the 16 reps you did last time It does that every single session; it pushes you a little bit ahead Your only job is to do what is written
Problem : At the end of your cycle, if you never actually failed at a weight ‒ you’ve never trained close to failure Example of failure: you tried to get to 17 reps, you got 16 but 17 wouldn’t move and you had to put the bar down
Solution : The next time you program in your weights and you do 3 reps in reserve for that first week, go a little harder than you think you should Then at some point during the middle or end of that cycle, you will actually hit failure trying to get to those objective targets
The app will ask you to put in your weights, roughly 10 to 20 rep maxes, and you’ll do as many reps as you think is 3 reps or 4 reps to failure, depending on what it’s wanting you to do, and you’ll write your repetitions in for every single set Maybe it’s 16 reps at 90 lbs. on this exercise
The next week, the app auto programs a progression for you It’ll either ask you to do 17 reps at 90 lbs., or it’ll ask you to do 95 lbs. anew for the 16 reps you did last time
It does that every single session; it pushes you a little bit ahead
Your only job is to do what is written
Maybe it’s 16 reps at 90 lbs. on this exercise
It’ll either ask you to do 17 reps at 90 lbs., or it’ll ask you to do 95 lbs. anew for the 16 reps you did last time
Example of failure: you tried to get to 17 reps, you got 16 but 17 wouldn’t move and you had to put the bar down
Then at some point during the middle or end of that cycle, you will actually hit failure trying to get to those objective targets

Here’s the big problem with trying to estimate failure

If you go based on how hard something feels, it’s different Like you had a tough day at work versus an easy day; you ate well versus you didn’t; you slept well versus you didn’t It’s all perceptual, which is nuts
Analogy : it’s like not having a mirror but asking someone to stand in front of you and help you put on makeup Thanks for your input, but I need a frigging mirror because I don’t know if you’re just messing with me Do I look like a clown; did I put lipstick over here instead of on my lips (who knows)?
Like you had a tough day at work versus an easy day; you ate well versus you didn’t; you slept well versus you didn’t
It’s all perceptual, which is nuts
Thanks for your input, but I need a frigging mirror because I don’t know if you’re just messing with me Do I look like a clown; did I put lipstick over here instead of on my lips (who knows)?
Do I look like a clown; did I put lipstick over here instead of on my lips (who knows)?

If you have an objective criteria : this is what you did last week and you want to go a little bit beyond

Inevitably 1 of 2 things will happen over the long term
1 – You will reach muscular failure and you will be unable to do a repetition (more realistic)
2 – You will get infinitely strong forever and now you’re Superman
Solution : Put numbers on a board and add 2.5-5 lbs. or 1 rep each week (that’s the goal)
If you can’t do it, success ‒ you went to failure Now you know where the limit is Now you’re building intuition
If you did get those numbers, next week you go higher, and you go higher
Now you know where the limit is
Now you’re building intuition

What volume would be a red flag where you would say a volume/sets per body part was below X?

In the beginning, a few sets are totally fine
For an intermediate person, below 5 or 10 sets per week is not sufficient effort to expect your best results

10-20 sets per week is fine, but for many people you have to use a second qualifier, which is what is actually happening to you

If you aren’t getting super sore or super mega tired in your muscles a day or 2 after training
If your strength continues to be stable or increases session to session to session and you’re on that fewer than 20 work sets per muscle per week Per muscle, not per body part In other words, bicep would need to be 20 sets per week (wow)
Per muscle, not per body part
In other words, bicep would need to be 20 sets per week (wow)

Peter realizes, “ I think we have a pretty good explanation for why somebody at this table has small biceps. ”

You’ll be able to intuit rather quickly if it’s too little or too much

If all of the signs show that you’re not actually excessively fatigued, your volume is either okay or less than it could be
If you’re not getting great results visually, but you’re always running into strength plateaus, if you’re always tired and sore, and if you’re north of 20 sets per muscle per week, on average hard sets, then probably doing less is good because you have almost every indicator of doing too much

The other variable involved in the gym: when is the last time you took a break?

There is a concept called cumulative fatigue : your muscles and the rest of your body recover very well between sessions, but not 100% (maybe 90 or 95%)
If you’re a mathematics fan, if you multiply 0.95 by 0.95 by 0.92 by 0.9 by 0.95 enough, you’re down to 50% recovery within 6 or 8 weeks
And then how could you possibly be making gains?

Solution: for the average person, 1 week every 2 months, don’t go to the gym

Stay active, maybe do a bodyweight squat or push-up or 2
Ideally, try going on vacation
Have some fun, eat some cheat foods, and be a little less active so that your body can recover in a way that it can never recover between sessions
But it gets a whole week to do this

And once a year, take 2 weeks like that ‒ active rest

One week off is called a deload [ RP video ]
When you take 2 weeks off in a row, and you do the lightest, easiest stuff (10 minutes) ‒ that reduces your systemic cumulative fatigue so much that it brings it back down to almost zero
Some people will say, “ Look, 16 weeks I’ve been cranking. First 12 weeks, great results. Last 4 weeks, I don’t know if I’m moving the needle .” Well, maybe you’re just really tired Pushing the pedal down harder is usually not the best way to do things It might be time for a break
Well, maybe you’re just really tired
Pushing the pedal down harder is usually not the best way to do things
It might be time for a break

⇒ Your muscles resensitize to the stimulus if you take time off

When you come back

Go back to 2 or 3 sets of everything, not 4 or 5 sets of everything
You’re going to get really sore and really pumped from just a few sets, and you’re going to be growing again
You do that for another 6-8 weeks, you get tired again, your strength starts to plateau, take another week of easy training or no training at all, and that’s how the cycle repeats itself

Mike now takes the time to find out about someone’s frame of reference

Before he consults people on how to pursue incrementally more optimal outcomes for muscle growth
He wants to know What have their gains been like? How much work have they been putting in? How long have they been training? He wants to see how genetics play and age a role in this
Mike has consulted people who were in their 60s, weighing about 150 lbs. and they aspire to be in the low-mid 200s, fairly lean He told them, “ Outside of an anabolic steroid cycle that’s probably got an even chance of killing you as it does of getting you jacked, you’re not going to get that jacked, and your progress rate is just going to be much slower than the 20-year-olds at your gym. ”
What have their gains been like?
How much work have they been putting in?
How long have they been training?
He wants to see how genetics play and age a role in this
He told them, “ Outside of an anabolic steroid cycle that’s probably got an even chance of killing you as it does of getting you jacked, you’re not going to get that jacked, and your progress rate is just going to be much slower than the 20-year-olds at your gym. ”

⇒ Sometimes we forget that age has a profound effect on our results (when we look around at all the young people)

Peter asks, “ Do you attribute this to the hypertrophy of type II fibers , which are necessary for the power generation that’s necessary for producing the gains we’re talking about? ”

That’s definitely a component of it
Another component is overall systemic ability to recover You have so much DNA methylation and all this other kind of damage and accretion of the wear and tear of age that your organelles and your cells don’t work as well as they used to Your organs don’t work as well as they used to A lot of times you’re taking for granted the fact that now in your mid-sixties you run a top 500 corporation and you have more stress than most people could handle in a day You have that in an hour But back when you were making the gains of your life when you were 18, your job was to show up to school, go to the gym, eat at the cafeteria, and smoke weed Of course you have the gains of your life People discount that
People look to athletes and go, “ Oh, my God. That bikini competitor, she looks amazing. I want that body. ” Well Linda, you’re 56, you have 3 children (1 in college, 2 are not), you are a CTO for a major company, and you sleep 5 hours a night That bikini competitor trains a few clients, she posts on OnlyFans and she does nothing else other than train, recover, and watch Netflix, and sleep 9 hours a night of uninterrupted sleep (she’s also 27) It’s two completely different worlds
You have so much DNA methylation and all this other kind of damage and accretion of the wear and tear of age that your organelles and your cells don’t work as well as they used to
Your organs don’t work as well as they used to
A lot of times you’re taking for granted the fact that now in your mid-sixties you run a top 500 corporation and you have more stress than most people could handle in a day You have that in an hour But back when you were making the gains of your life when you were 18, your job was to show up to school, go to the gym, eat at the cafeteria, and smoke weed Of course you have the gains of your life People discount that
You have that in an hour
But back when you were making the gains of your life when you were 18, your job was to show up to school, go to the gym, eat at the cafeteria, and smoke weed
Of course you have the gains of your life
People discount that
Well Linda, you’re 56, you have 3 children (1 in college, 2 are not), you are a CTO for a major company, and you sleep 5 hours a night
That bikini competitor trains a few clients, she posts on OnlyFans and she does nothing else other than train, recover, and watch Netflix, and sleep 9 hours a night of uninterrupted sleep (she’s also 27)
It’s two completely different worlds

“ With social media, there is nothing that surprises me anymore about how unmoored some people can be from realistic expectations. ”‒ Mike Israetel

The impact of genetics, age, and lifestyle on muscle growth [1:27:45]

Genetics is the most important factor other than time spent in the gym

You have to understand that your goals have to be referenced to what your genetic likelihood of achieving them are
The only way you’ll find that out is if you work at it for a while and see what happens
Some people work at resistance training for 3 years ‒ they’ll accrue 5 lbs. of muscle, burn 3 lbs. of fat, and they’ll be like, “ This next year, I want to gain 10 pounds of muscle. ” That’s not how hyperbolic curves and asymptotic curves work You got it backwards If in 3 years you gain 10 lbs. of muscle, in the next 3 years maybe you can gain 5 That’s realistic It does not work in reverse
That’s not how hyperbolic curves and asymptotic curves work
You got it backwards
If in 3 years you gain 10 lbs. of muscle, in the next 3 years maybe you can gain 5 That’s realistic It does not work in reverse
That’s realistic
It does not work in reverse

It’s really important to contextualize multiple qualities

1- How much recovery, and rest, and relaxation time do you get compared to work and being under-slept
2 – Genetics
3 – Age

Mike adds, “ The reason I’m ranting about this, Peter, is because I’ve had many clients who were willing to put in whatever work it was going to be necessary to put in, but they were older, they did not have particularly great genetics, and they had already gotten most of the muscle gain that they were going to get. Not all, but most. ”

So outside of pharmaceutical enhancement, what they were asking for was impossible

The biggest factors for results are that trifecta along with how much of a professional bodybuilder or fitness person do you want to be for the next several months

“ People will arbitrarily assign themselves an amount of muscle they want. It does not work like that .”‒ Mike Israetel

Put in the diligence, put in the time, see how it goes
If things are going well, you can crank it up a little bit and get a little bit better gains
It’s going to take time
If things are not going so well, you have to optimize to make them go a little better

Outside of the basics, you’re not going to be able to get a category leap of results short of a great pharmaceutical renaissance

Mike predicts the early 2030s will be the great pharmaceutical renaissance

Then you can just turn myostatin off and get as jacked as you want
Until then, realism can be a painful pill to swallow
Peter thinks it will be interesting to see if we can turn myostatin off in adults and if it will have the same impact that it has in the cartoons
Animals that are myostatin knockouts are some of the most enjoyable things to look at

Figure 5. Myostatin deficient bull. Image credit: PNAS 1997

⇒ It’s not clear if you took a mature adult and inhibited myostatin if you would get the same benefits

The importance of nutrition, protein intake, and consistency in both training and diet for muscle growth [1:31:00]

When something out of the gym is playing a role in your unjackedness, is nutrition often a factor or is that generally not?

In other words, is it so rare that someone is not getting enough protein or not getting enough calories that that’s the problem?

It’s a thing
Maybe more with women and older women than men
You may even see more anabolic resistance in older men
Mike thinks it’s not difficult to align your nutrition well, eat mostly healthy foods, some junk here and there is totally fine, getting in enough protein

Mike’s advises, “ If you want to be real serious about optimizing your muscle gains, something like a gram per pound protein per day. ”

So if you weigh 150 pounds, 150 grams of relatively high quality protein

Get a couple boxes of David Bars and eat them between meals, and that takes care of protein

The other thing is muscle size is philosophically concordant with being bigger Muscle’s made of stuff So when someone wants to be 165 pounds jacked at 150 pounds, it’s curious how they think that’s ever going to happen Some people just don’t eat enough
The biggest problem Mike has seen is lack of consistency (intermittency)
He’s had so many clients in the professional realm, older folks who do very good for a couple days, then they fall off the wagon for days at a time
Muscle’s made of stuff
So when someone wants to be 165 pounds jacked at 150 pounds, it’s curious how they think that’s ever going to happen
Some people just don’t eat enough

Lack of consistency is a surefire way to guarantee that you don’t get very good gains

Reasonable expectations for muscle growth and how to achieve them

If you want to get as jacked as possible within the realm of several months time
Seek to eat enough food to get the scale to go up about half a pound per week

If you training hard for 12 weeks, you should gain maybe 6 lbs. or so

And if you’re eating a gram per pound per day of protein spread into roughly 3-4 evenly spaced meals, that really is all you need to know about nutrition for how to get jacked Very roughly, a lot of wiggle room there
That covers probably 90% of the variance
Very roughly, a lot of wiggle room there

The 80/20 rule

As discussed earlier with Dorian Yates , how how we could do so few cents to get so many results
That 80/20 type of rule applies to almost everything else in the human body, including nutrition
If you’re getting enough protein regularly and you’re getting enough calories to gain body weight, if you don’t get really the muscle gains that you were expecting, there aren’t a lot of knobs and levers for us to pull that are going to get these enormous results That’s the situation for nutrition
That’s the situation for nutrition

⇒ Mike can’t say enough about consistency, especially when you’re older and you have lots of stress from your professional endeavors

Now if you do everything right 5 or 6 days of the week and 1 day is meh, you’ll do great
But if the good days are outnumbered by the “ I sure hope my trainer doesn’t find out about these days ,” you’re not doing your due diligence

The use of anabolic steroids to boost muscle growth: doses, drug combinations, and side effects [1:35:45]

Mike mentioned the topic of anabolic steroids earlier and has spoken very openly about them
Peter has talked about them [episodes #274 , #291 , #196 , #180 ]

⇒ A couple times already, Mike has made the point: your genes are genes are going to start to become your limit

Peter adds, “ There’s some confusion about: is testosterone and anabolic steroid. And of course, the answer is absolutely yes, it is. ”

Non-medical anabolic steroid use

Let’s take testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) where testosterone in a hypogonadal man is restored to typically the upper limit of a normal physiologic range Give everyone good genetics
We’ll take that off the table for a moment Park it in the context of what does anabolic-androgenic steroid use look like in the physique bodybuilding community
Give everyone good genetics
Park it in the context of what does anabolic-androgenic steroid use look like in the physique bodybuilding community

The pros and cons of different drugs, how much it can unleash, and Mike’s experience

Anabolic-androgenic steroids are all derivatives of the testosterone molecule manipulated in various ways to accentuate some characteristics and de-emphasize other characteristics
They’re typically taken by athletes in the competitive sphere, bodybuilders, physique athletes, and gym people who want a super physiological level of muscle mass and sometimes super physiologically low levels of body fat concomitant with that
They’ll take anywhere between high-end testosterone replacement therapy dose to 10 or 20 times that amount per week

Peter has talked about TRT before in the podcast and wants to give people some doses

He typically doses patients twice a week to try to get a smoother level as opposed to once a week
If the ideal dose for a given individual to get them in the right spot is a 100 mg of testosterone cypionate weekly, we would always prefer that the patient take 50 mg intramuscularly twice a week or sub-Q
Peter doesn’t think he’s ever given a patient more than 70 mg twice a week (or 140 mg a week)
The median dose for physiologic replacement is probably 40 mg twice a week (or 80 mg a week)

Peter asks, “ Are you saying that there are people out there that would routinely take 800 to 1600 milligrams of testosterone in a week? ”

Oh, yeah

Sometimes that’s not all testosterone, it’s other steroids in combination

Usually people take at least that replacement level of testosterone, often more, because testosterone does some really good things for health and general function

Testosterone tends to aromatize into estrogen quite readily

Which is good because estrogen is cardioprotective, neuroprotective, increases your strength, helps your mood, helps your sex drive
Estrogen actually increases your anabolism in the presence of androgenic steroids and testosterone
Estrogen by itself, not very anabolic, but estrogen in the presence of testosterone is more anabolic than if you had all the testosterone in the world, but we’re unable to aromatize estrogen

Baseline low testosterone is often taken at somewhere between 250 mg a week and all the way up to a 1000 mg a week

Depending on how you’re handling the side effects of that excess estrogen production at the higher levels

⇒ That’s usually taken as enanthate , cypionate , some people prefer propionate if they inject every day

Once daily injections seem to provide the smoothest curve

If you put in half a week’s worth of super physiological testosterone at one time, your mood for the next several hours is curious

Help me understand what that feels like; let’s say your taking 700 mg a week (100 mg a day), that’s a 7x physiologic dose

Most people feel something
But it’s probably a normally distributed population of experiences where some people just can’t tell
Some people feel something for sure that they can describe
Some people have panic attacks and will never use again
Or they are driven to extreme violent thoughts and extreme sexual thoughts and actions Those folks are quite rare, but they do happen
The average effect of a high degree of anabolic steroids (for simplicity, testosterone) is to imagine what is the average psychological proclivity of a female, what is the average psychological proclivity of a male, different in many regards, and then you move the needle over one notch into a magical category called “enhanced male”
Those folks are quite rare, but they do happen

You typically exhibit more male-like patterns of thought and behavior than even males do ‒ steroids don’t accentuate every quality you have, just the more masculine qualities

A recent video on the RP Strength channel talks about this: Roid Rage is REAL

What are the most masculine qualities?

This hits everyone a little bit differently, but on average you become quieter
Men typically are not as expressive as women
You come to show fewer facial expressions of emotion
You don’t process other people’s emotions as well
You can’t fine-tune what they feel as much, and you don’t care as much
Way less empathy
You are more likely to be irritable More likely to have anger and aggressive sorts of thoughts
You become more attuned to the dominance hierarchy in general
You become someone who thinks more about where you stack up in the dominance hierarchy in a way that you take affronts and slights more poorly than otherwise For example, if someone on social media says you’re a bad person, if you’re not on a lot of testosterone, you might think that person is having a bad day If you’re on a lot of testosterone, you’re more likely to be like, “ I wonder if he’d say that to my face. I wonder if he would be real quiet around me because he would know that I’m not someone to be messed with .” (weird thoughts like that) Women almost never have thoughts like that Men have regular thoughts like that in the right context People on steroids have more thoughts like that in almost every context than they would like to have
You become linguistically less expressive and your fluidity of communication falls It’s generally not good for most relationships
Sex drive is another one It’s difficult for women to appreciate what the male sex drive is like on a quantitative and qualitative level Both of those tend to magnify, especially if you’re not bringing your estrogen down If you bring estrogen low enough, you don’t even remember what the hell sex is for, why people are even in that sort of thing But if you have a lot of androgens, a lot of estrogen, the hunger, the thirst becomes very annoying
More likely to have anger and aggressive sorts of thoughts
For example, if someone on social media says you’re a bad person, if you’re not on a lot of testosterone, you might think that person is having a bad day
If you’re on a lot of testosterone, you’re more likely to be like, “ I wonder if he’d say that to my face. I wonder if he would be real quiet around me because he would know that I’m not someone to be messed with .” (weird thoughts like that) Women almost never have thoughts like that Men have regular thoughts like that in the right context People on steroids have more thoughts like that in almost every context than they would like to have
Women almost never have thoughts like that
Men have regular thoughts like that in the right context
People on steroids have more thoughts like that in almost every context than they would like to have
It’s generally not good for most relationships
It’s difficult for women to appreciate what the male sex drive is like on a quantitative and qualitative level
Both of those tend to magnify, especially if you’re not bringing your estrogen down
If you bring estrogen low enough, you don’t even remember what the hell sex is for, why people are even in that sort of thing
But if you have a lot of androgens, a lot of estrogen, the hunger, the thirst becomes very annoying

Peter asks, “ At that level of testosterone, are you taking an aromatase inhibitor?… I can’t imagine how high the estradiol level becomes… Typically estradiol would be over 100 at that point. That’s left alone? ”

It depends on a few things
Different people respond differently, both physique and psychology, to high levels of estrogen
High levels of estrogen for some people are like swimming in a pool of magical clouds, and they love it and their physique looks great They get nice and watery; their joints feel amazing Their recovery’s awesome Their sleep is awesome Sex drive’s awesome Everything’s great
For some other people, they get a lot of estrogen and it actually prevents them from getting good sleep at higher levels They’re water buffalo bloated and they can’t even see their abs anymore, even though they’re 8% body fat They get mood swings, all this crazy stuff
Peter finds this amazing and not entirely unlike women if they’re undergoing hormone replacement therapy in perimenopause It’s not a one-size-fits-all They can have tremendous variability in their response to estrogen and, of course, progesterone
They get nice and watery; their joints feel amazing
Their recovery’s awesome
Their sleep is awesome
Sex drive’s awesome
Everything’s great
They’re water buffalo bloated and they can’t even see their abs anymore, even though they’re 8% body fat
They get mood swings, all this crazy stuff
It’s not a one-size-fits-all
They can have tremendous variability in their response to estrogen and, of course, progesterone

The other thing is what we’re learning in evidence-based approach to anabolic steroid utilization and performance-enhancing drug utilization is called the “safer use model”

Probably the biggest promulgator of it is a gentleman named Joe Jeffery in the United Kingdom Super, super expert, exceptional bodybuilding coach Great bodybuilder in his own right He just reads literature all day long
Folks like him tend to espouse that probably the best way to manage estrogen is to use some combination of exogenous drugs that are androgens themselves to get the estrogen level you have the best notable metrics at, how you feel, how you look, how your blood work is, health, etc.
Super, super expert, exceptional bodybuilding coach
Great bodybuilder in his own right
He just reads literature all day long

Here’s an example: you take a 1000 mg of testosterone

It actually goes into your thigh in a needle
It’s intense; it’s a lot
And that comes with a concomitant aromatization, so you have a lot of estrogen
Some people, they feel totally great
For some people it’s too much
For those that it’s too much estrogen, they might be able to take 500 mg of testosterone and then 500 mg of Primobolan (a 50/50 split) Now they get all the good estrogen from testosterone, but not too much of it They get most of that anabolic drive from the rest of the Primobolan, but without the addition of any more estrogen It could be 250 testosterone and 750 mg of Primo; it could be 750 test and 250 Primo (and anything inbetween)
Primobolan is a synthetic anabolic-androgenic steroid developed in the ’60s, and it’s designed not really to convert into estrogen hardly at all
Other steroids like it are Masteron They not only don’t convert into estrogen, but they actually antagonize estrogen conversion for the testosterone you’re shooting in to some extent
A lot of bodybuilding coaches have the wisdom to know works for most people; they will start you on a certain cycle and then level up one drug, level down another to get that androgen-to-estrogen ratio to be something that you have your best performance at, best health
The sex drive component, especially if you have a lot of estrogen going on, qualitatively it can change
For Mike personally, he never got enormous sex drive upregulation He got some, but nothing crazy And he’s been as high as just north of 2000 mg per week Currently, he’s at 250 mg per week, but his sex drive is more or less the same
Now they get all the good estrogen from testosterone, but not too much of it
They get most of that anabolic drive from the rest of the Primobolan, but without the addition of any more estrogen
It could be 250 testosterone and 750 mg of Primo; it could be 750 test and 250 Primo (and anything inbetween)
They not only don’t convert into estrogen, but they actually antagonize estrogen conversion for the testosterone you’re shooting in to some extent
He got some, but nothing crazy
And he’s been as high as just north of 2000 mg per week
Currently, he’s at 250 mg per week, but his sex drive is more or less the same

Peter asks, “ Is there any difference in androgen receptor expression that you’re able to appreciate between 250 and 2000? Are you so saturated in your androgen receptors already that… Do we actually know if there’s a benefit to all the additional testosterone that you could have been on at almost 10X, your current dose 8X. ”

You won’t know until you try

Did you appreciate a difference in positive effects [with high doses of testosterone]?

Peter doesn’t doubt that there could be a difference in negative effects, but if the positive effects are accrued through testosterone binding to the androgen receptor, that complex leading to more nuclear transcription, wouldn’t what you said suggest that you might have already hit maximum benefit at 250 [mg per week]?

Yeah
There are some reasons to believe that your androgen receptor density escalates up when exposed to more androgens and not down in some cases
And so that means the more gear [steroids] you take, the more benefit you have rather linearly

In Mike’s experience (and the experience of most people you talk to), it’s again slow newsreel, same asymptotic curvilinear relationship

This is something Mike didn’t discover until quite recently
He probably gets almost the same gains at 1000 mg that he does at 2000
Anything north 1500 mg just drives Mike mentally insane and seems to not really affect his physique hardly at all

Side effects of high doses of testosterone

Peter asks, “ How much water retention do you get at these doses? ”

Considerable
Although if you manage your estrogen well, it’s not as much as you would think

Peter asks, “ Managing estrogen with aromatase inhibitors? ”

Aromatase inhibitors in many cases are incredibly toxic drugs and you generally want to avoid taking them if you can
Sometimes you have to get really dry for a contest, but that’s only a few weeks out from the show, and so the modern wisdom with the evidence-based crowd (the safer use crowd) is to manage your estrogen with differential amounts of testosterone and non-estrogenically converting compounds like Primobolan and Masteron versus taking just as much testosterone as you ever would
But taking an aromatase inhibitor on top of that because aromatase inhibitors in a unbelievable range of circumstances, fuck you up They’re neurotoxic, they’re cardiovascularly toxic It’s bad, bad news These are the compounds you use when you have breast cancer and they’re like, “ You’re going to die if you don’t take these .” They are gigantic hammers for a very small nail
If you want to see who’s done the worst to their health across the bodybuilding industry, it’s whoever runs the most AIs, as we call them (aromatase inhibitors)
They’re neurotoxic, they’re cardiovascularly toxic
It’s bad, bad news
These are the compounds you use when you have breast cancer and they’re like, “ You’re going to die if you don’t take these .” They are gigantic hammers for a very small nail
They are gigantic hammers for a very small nail

There are various other pharmaceutical ways to control estrogen than using aromatase inhibitors

Probably the best way for health and effect is only use as much estrogenically converting drugs, Nandrolone derivatives and testosterone as you need to get whatever estrogen you feel best at
And the rest of the anabolic load should come from things like Primobolan and Masteron that don’t really do much to your estrogen at all, but increase your androgen and anabolism

How do you differentiate between when you’re using testosterone versus Nandrolone?

Mostly by experience
Nandrolone has some really cool positive effects, kind of exaggerated versions of testosterone
Some people are naturally very dry and so if they don’t take a Nandrolone for their very hard training cycles, they will have insufficient body and joint water, hydration Joints will creak and they’ll get hurt a lot and it’s just really bad recovery But you put them on a Nandrolone variant and all of a sudden they have enough intramuscular and intra-joint water to where they feel great everything’s working
Other people will get on Nandrolones and have so many of the side effects Way too much estrogen conversion They feel like a giant water buffalo If they just take testosterone, they’re plenty hydrated, so they don’t need to do that
Nandrolones also have this curious side effect, it’s colloquially termed “Deca Dick” Nandrolone decanoate is a substance, brand name called Deca It is erectile dysfunction approximately caused by the presence of Nandrolones It’s curious because Nandrolones typically with their estrogenic effects, elevate sex drive The more estrogen you have to a point, the more sex drive you have if you have presence of androgens (testosterone) So you’re horny, but little Billy down there doesn’t work as well as he used to (or at all) That’s a tradeoff between that and the training benefit
Joints will creak and they’ll get hurt a lot and it’s just really bad recovery
But you put them on a Nandrolone variant and all of a sudden they have enough intramuscular and intra-joint water to where they feel great everything’s working
Way too much estrogen conversion
They feel like a giant water buffalo
If they just take testosterone, they’re plenty hydrated, so they don’t need to do that
Nandrolone decanoate is a substance, brand name called Deca
It is erectile dysfunction approximately caused by the presence of Nandrolones
It’s curious because Nandrolones typically with their estrogenic effects, elevate sex drive The more estrogen you have to a point, the more sex drive you have if you have presence of androgens (testosterone)
So you’re horny, but little Billy down there doesn’t work as well as he used to (or at all)
That’s a tradeoff between that and the training benefit
The more estrogen you have to a point, the more sex drive you have if you have presence of androgens (testosterone)

Mike’s advice

Generally, there’s nothing better than to start out with a solid plan that makes sense with a coach that knows what they’re doing
Start at very low doses of everything and slowly play with compounds and scale up
Highly note your beneficial effects and highly note your deleterious effects (or downsides), and see where you can strike a balance that’s acceptable to you And considers long-term consequences
And considers long-term consequences

Long-term impact of steroid use on muscle retention, the role of genetics and individual variability, and their impact after discontinuation [1:52:15]

How old are you, Mike?

40
He knows he looks 50 (not where Peter was going)
Peter is guessing that Mike has good genes, eats well, trains very hard, and is using enough anabolic steroids to fuel a small country
If we subtracted that last one out of the equation because I don’t have a sense of what the relative contribution is, what would you look like if you did everything the same minus the anabolic steroids or if you were on regular TRT? Regular TRT: taking a 200 mg of cypionate a week
Regular TRT: taking a 200 mg of cypionate a week

Do you have a sense to quantify how many pounds lighter you would be in terms of total muscle mass?

Mike asks, “ Having had used steroids before at high doses or not having ever had used them? Very different answer .”

Mike started using high doses of anabolic steroids when he was 27 years old
Let’s go back to when he was 27 and put him on the same path of training intensity, all of the scientific principles that come into it, etc., but he’s never gone down the path of taking megadoses of steroids And if he ever took testosterone, it’s literally to bring his total T up to 800 ng/dL
And if he ever took testosterone, it’s literally to bring his total T up to 800 ng/dL

At Mike’s current body fat, he would weigh 200 lbs. (versus 230, 235)

Now 35 lbs. of muscle is a lot of muscle
He would still be very jacked

Before he ever started taking anabolic steroids, he was already an elite power lifter

He weighed 270 lbs. and had probably 30+% body fat
He DEXA-ed himself in a Master’s program when he was totally drug free and he had a fat-free mass between 175-185 He’s 5’6” His FFMI (fat-free max index) was under 30 FFMI (fat-free max index ) is total fat-free mass in kilograms divided by height in meters squared and just for reference It’s pretty hard to be above 25 without anabolic steroids He was 28, 29-years-old
Peter thinks that suggests that Mike had some interesting genetics
He’s 5’6”
His FFMI (fat-free max index) was under 30 FFMI (fat-free max index ) is total fat-free mass in kilograms divided by height in meters squared and just for reference It’s pretty hard to be above 25 without anabolic steroids
He was 28, 29-years-old
FFMI (fat-free max index ) is total fat-free mass in kilograms divided by height in meters squared and just for reference
It’s pretty hard to be above 25 without anabolic steroids

Mike adds, “ I have very elite genetics… Anyone who sees this on video will notice that my head is curiously shaped. My mastication muscles are absurd. I looked like this before I ever took any steroids. ”

Figure 6. Mike Israetel . Image credit: Facebook

Mike has the genetics for this and also got plenty out of steroids Maybe not as much as some other people
Some people without steroids are not overly jacked, but with steroids it’s a total transformative event
Then when they retire and they come off of steroids, they go back to being mortal sized
Whereas other people come off of steroids and they keep most of their muscle mass and they’re on TRT and they just look so jacked for forever
There’s a huge, huge variation
Maybe not as much as some other people

For Mike, steroids did a lot but nothing crazy ‒ he gained 30-ish pounds over 13 years

He didn’t gain 70 pounds of muscle

Reverse question: tomorrow you just decide to keep doing everything you’re doing training-wise and gradually taper down anabolic use

Peter assumes Mike will need to be on testosterone the rest of his life

Mike replies, “ I don’t have to be. My testicular shrinkage has been zero. My spermatogenesis is seemingly zero. Some people just don’t suppress. ”

How many weeks a year are you completely off any anabolic agent?

Zero
And that’s been 13 years
Peter finds it hard to believe he would continue to make testosterone
Mike thinks this is hugely genetically variable
Even if he’s not making any now, within several weeks, his testosterone production would likely resume
Now if he had balls the size of capers then, yeah, it’s be an uphill battle
Most people can resume normal testosterone production after the cessation of anabolic androgenic steroids, but not all Maybe like 90/10
Maybe like 90/10

You don’t want to be that 10, which is why it’s a huge that you don’t just start steroids or TRT without a real long hard think about what the hell you want out of life

Especially if you have yet to have children but want children
Mike knows people personally who’ve done 1 of 2 things 1 – Father children while on full steroid cycles 2 – Blasted for a long time and cannot have children, tried everything (their spermatogenesis is gone)
Peter can’t imagine that 90% of people that use anabolic steroids for >2 years would be able to resume testosterone production
Mike thinks that most of the stuff you hear about how the comeback is difficult, is from people for whom the comeback is difficult
Having been in the bodybuilding, power lifting space for a long time, most of the people he sees come off are normal afterwards
1 – Father children while on full steroid cycles
2 – Blasted for a long time and cannot have children, tried everything (their spermatogenesis is gone)

If you were to go down to regular TRT today, how much of that 35 lb. of delta supplemental muscle would you keep?

If he went down to 100 mg a week or none

He’d probably keep about half ‒ in other words, there is a difference between the muscle you gained versus the muscle you never had

Huge
Which is why if you have a natural bodybuilding federation that allows you to compete after you’ve used steroids ‒ it’s a crock of shit (not fair)
Mike respects every athlete and thinks it’s wonderful that they’re doing what they’re doing and in a sense it’s a different category
If he was making a natural bodybuilding federation, you would have to sign paperwork that says, “ I’ve never used anabolic steroids .”
Because the literature we have now on how much muscle you gain and keep forever is unequivocal We even have mechanistic data on how it happens Your satellite cells that are incorporated under your musculature, which are kind of dormant and then they get in and then they grow big We have no reason to believe they ever leave
Analogy : it’s like letting your aunt come live with your for a few weeks, and they’re like, Aunt Linda’s here forever
Having ever done higher doses of androgens for weeks or longer on end can give you a higher level of muscularity, especially if you’ve gone beyond your natural limit
We even have mechanistic data on how it happens
Your satellite cells that are incorporated under your musculature, which are kind of dormant and then they get in and then they grow big
We have no reason to believe they ever leave

⇒ People generally can gain only so much naturally and only so much on steroids

Steroids are not unlimited for gains

Advantage gained from steroid use

If you were going to ever have 160 pounds of fat-free mass, and if you went from 150 to 160 with steroids, but you could have gotten there and would take you 3x longer without steroids, then the inherent advantage you don’t have because you just got there faster
But if you got to 180 on steroids and then you quit all the steroids and now you’re back down to 170, you could walk around and maintain that 170 on a normal secretion of testosterone (or a normal TRT), you would’ve never been able to do that without the steroids

Steroids offer a permanent advantage for muscle gain

If you’ve ever been hyper muscular from steroids, you’ll probably never be as small as you would’ve normally been ever again
That’s a big deal in Olympic sports because you can just kind of hide out, don’t get into the doping pool, crank it, get into the doping pool, you’re drug free, but you have muscle, it’ll never leave you That’s a massive advantage
That’s a massive advantage

Trade-offs of long-term usage of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone: health, performance, and Mike’s future plans [2:00:45]

What is your personal calculus for the number of years remaining where you want to be doing supraphysiologic doses of testosterone?

Do you think about the trade-offs of long-term health?

Incessantly
Mike’s calculation has many fold variables that go into it
This includes getting regular blood work He’s always done this, before he got in, during it, all the time He’s got good genetics for health resilience He’s never had blood work that indicated he should stop The last time he had blood work he was on 1500 mg Trenbolone acetate (totally gnarly stuff), and his overall total cholesterol was 79 or something
He’s always done this, before he got in, during it, all the time
He’s got good genetics for health resilience
He’s never had blood work that indicated he should stop
The last time he had blood work he was on 1500 mg Trenbolone acetate (totally gnarly stuff), and his overall total cholesterol was 79 or something

Peter reacts, “ That’s almost impossible to imagine. You’re on lipid lowering drugs though. ”

Nope
Keep in mind, Mike is 7% body fat and leanness is a humongous variable for health

Mike is on blood pressure medication

Mike’s wife is a medical doctor so he’s always checking his blood pressure, always making sure it’s on the low end
He doesn’t know what his blood pressure would be if he wasn’t treating it with medication He’s never off this medication
Mike currently takes 250 mg a week ‒ that’s his sports TRT (he calls it super TRT)
He’s never off this medication

Peter asks, “ Your BP at 250 and your BP at 2000, you would be on the same dose of a blood pressure drug. ”

Mike took double the blood pressure medication roughly at that does and he titrated it so that his BP would always be below the normative values for best health (120/70)
When he took the most drugs, he was almost always in a fat loss phase because you’re just not eating much food and you’re very lean and you’re doing lots of physical activity
Those are all hugely antagonistic variables to high blood pressure
If he was massing and weighed 280, he would have to take the “kitchen sink” of blood pressure meds and it would still be worth it to do that

Mike adds, “ If I can make a public service announcement, it just doesn’t matter why your blood pressure is high, fucking control it with drugs and then look to lifestyle or whatever or whatever. ”

So many people are totally backwards on this where they want to clean up their lifestyle so that they can get off blood pressure meds
Why? We’re in what, gen-9 of blood pressure meds? They don’t even have side effects anymore

Why the hell wouldn’t you take a pill that reduces almost every single health malady and extends your lifespan by a generation?

It’s so funny, people will take Trenbolone that was manufactured in a bathtub in China, but they’re not going to take Novo Nordisk’s best blood pressure drug They’re insane
They’re insane

It’s good to make sure that your blood pressure and all lipid values are very good

Is your blood pressure the only noticeable deviation from normal health that you experienced that you and your wife were able to measure in this?

Mike’s lipid values probably aren’t as good when he’s bulking up
He was on fewer drugs then
The last time he ever had a total cholesterol over 200 was when he was 13-years-old and spent a whole summer playing video games and being totally inactive He was a portly child and weighed about 202 When he turned 14, he began to do sports
He was a portly child and weighed about 202
When he turned 14, he began to do sports

Mike’s health has always been really responsive to body fat levels

If he has a high body fat, he’s probably not in amazing health
If he’s has a low body fat, he can take a lot of steroids and still be relatively “in” the numbers
Now there’s lots of stuff we can’t measure, so his body has taken a considerable amount of damage over the years from anabolic androgenic steroids use

Damages resulting from androgenic steroid use

Cardiovascular damage
Mike’s left ventricular wall is probably larger than it should be
He’s had plenty of echoes , most of them quite some time ago, and they’re all great
The overall inflammatory exposure to the crazy training volumes
Stress levels and independent psychological stress that the anabolic steroids foist upon him, no doubt has been bad for his brain And bad for everything else and so on down the line
Luckily he was smart enough at the beginning to always control his blood pressure
And bad for everything else and so on down the line

⇒ Blood pressure is a huge killer for people on drugs

⇒ Mike has always paid attention to lipid values (that’s another huge killer)

He eats healthy almost all the time ‒ that’s a big deal

Do you use a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor to manage DHT?

No
Peter thinks his DHT must be 200, and [worries about the effects on] his prostate
Who knows, Mike has never checked
No doubt it has taken a hell of a beating over the years
While he used drugs relatively intelligently, he probably did too much He mostly didn’t use super high doses by bodybuilding standards He only used high doses a few times
If he had a chance to do it over again, he’d use less
In the future as he continues to compete in bodybuilding into his early 40s, he’s probably never going to go much over 500 total mg because it seems that his anabolic sensitivity is so high that he doesn’t need much more than that North of that, his psychological side effects are so nasty that it’s not worth it anymore
No doubt he’s degraded his fluid intelligence substantially from what it could have been (sadly)
He mostly didn’t use super high doses by bodybuilding standards
He only used high doses a few times
North of that, his psychological side effects are so nasty that it’s not worth it anymore

The potential for AI-driven medical breakthroughs to reverse aging and disease [2:07:30]

Mike is hedging on

He knows this is going to sound insane
He believes there is a high probability that in the early to mid-2030s, we will see the fusion of informatics and biology powered by AI such that we will be able to point by point re-engineer the entire human organism at a variety of levels and undo damage as was never possible before
He never exposed himself to as much statistical risk as would have made an even chance [that he wouldn’t make] it to age 50 He thinks he even has a chance of making it into his 60s (which would be the mid 2040s)
He thinks he even has a chance of making it into his 60s (which would be the mid 2040s)

Mike thinks major categories of disease will be completely solved in the 2030s

He thinks aging reversal would be mastered in the mid to late 2030s
If that happens, then he’s at longevity escape velocity and looks like he succeeded

“ If I die before then, I’m totally comfortable with all of the choices that I’ve ever made and it’s been one hell of a run .”‒ Mike Israetel

Understanding your own mortality and coming to grips with it important for any person, but especially with the risks Mike has taken with his body

This never surprised him
If he dies from a heart attack an hour after this conversation, he won’t die surprised He’ll die from a heart attack and be like, “ This is it .”
Analogy : It’s like a race car driver; nobody gets into that car and thinks it’s the safest thing they could be doing Most of them have come to grips with the fact that they could die, but they’re good and they’re well compensated It’s been worth it to them, and most importantly, they really wanted it
He’ll die from a heart attack and be like, “ This is it .”
Most of them have come to grips with the fact that they could die, but they’re good and they’re well compensated
It’s been worth it to them, and most importantly, they really wanted it

Recently it’s become apparent to Mike (and many futurists) that most people listening to this may never die

Up until recently, that was not apparent and you kind of had to figure out, “ How do I want to live my life? ”
Some cases require a longevity/quality of life trade-off
And Mike made that early

Would he make the same choice again?

On the margins, he probably would’ve been safer
There’s a lot of crazy shit they do in bodybuilding that he categorically never did or tried even once
His blood work and everything was pretty good the entire time, so he feels okay about it (not great)

Peter is was less optimistic about the longevity escape

He thinks of the hedge as the exact opposite
Peter’s hedge is, it would be wonderful if in a decade we had technology that treated disease in a way that could restore his heart to the heart it was when he was 20
He thinks about the reduction in function
His coronary arteries are still clean as a whistle, but his heart is nowhere near what it used to be Because his maximum heart rate is 30 beats, 40 beats per minute lower than it was when he was a teenager Which is directly an aging thing
If you look at the electrical system of his heart, these are things he can’t treat
He can do all the things possible to not have his blood pressure go up, so he don’t get LV (left ventricular hypertrophy)
He can keep his coronary arteries clean as a whistle indefinitely ‒ we have the modern pharmacology to do that Isn’t it crazy that you can say that? It’s wonderful; it’s incredible
But you can’t change the architecture of the muscle yet
Because his maximum heart rate is 30 beats, 40 beats per minute lower than it was when he was a teenager
Which is directly an aging thing
Isn’t it crazy that you can say that?
It’s wonderful; it’s incredible

Peter’s hedge is about staving off chronic disease as long a possible, staying healthy as long as possible, stay in the game as long as possible

If it turns out that was for nothing, we’re sitting here 10 years from now and he’s in his early 60s and someone comes along and says, “ Peter, all that stuff you did was totally unnecessary. You could have been eating Cheetos, drinking margaritas all day long. I have a pill that’s going to make you 20 years old again .” He would have no regrets
He would have regrets if he put his eggs in the basket that said, “ I’m going to drink the margaritas all day. I’m not going to exercise. I’m going to wait for the exercise pill to come along. ” and it doesn’t come along
He would have no regrets

One of Peter’s favorite thought experiments

If you just consider modern human history, we’re just talking about 250,000 years Let’s forget everything that came before Homo sapiens
You go back in time 250,000 years ago, 200,000 years ago, 150,000
You do this in 50,000 increments until you hit 10,000 years ago and then 5,000 years ago, and then 2,500 years ago and then a 1,000 years ago
Let’s forget everything that came before Homo sapiens

You go in and you ask them to predict the future

Letting them see everything that’s happened before Of course, that would be a difficult thing to do most points in time, they don’t even know anything beyond that
It would be impossible to imagine because the pace of change during that 250,000 years was pretty much nothing
5,000 years ago we got agriculture
Then a couple 100 years ago we got the first Industrial Revolution
We start to get 2 more big step function changes
But even if you go back in time 100 years 100 years we’re in the roaring 20s, life couldn’t be any better Nobody knows that there’s this depression coming Nobody knows what technology is coming, all of these things
Of course, that would be a difficult thing to do most points in time, they don’t even know anything beyond that
100 years we’re in the roaring 20s, life couldn’t be any better
Nobody knows that there’s this depression coming
Nobody knows what technology is coming, all of these things

So we couldn’t predict anything

You go back in time 40 years, Peter doesn’t think anybody could have predicted what we’re doing today

Mike adds, “ Ray Kurzweil successfully did .”

If you’re conservative, 60 to 70% accuracy, which is wild because the baseline accuracy is zero
Throughout the 80s and 90s, he made a substantial amount of correct predictions all the way through the 2020s
He was almost the only person to predict the arrival of artificial general intelligence (he predicted the year 2029) Now there is debate that he was probably too conservative and AGI will be here by 2027
In the early 2000s they did a lot of asking questions of AI experts, people working in the space, and almost all of them said Ray was an insane person About half of them said, “ We could never actually create artificial general intelligence .” The other ones were like, “ Oh in 2100 or 2070… ”
Every 5 years that you ask this, everyone trends closer and closer to Ray Kurzweil’s original prediction
He’s not doing magic
Now there is debate that he was probably too conservative and AGI will be here by 2027
About half of them said, “ We could never actually create artificial general intelligence .”
The other ones were like, “ Oh in 2100 or 2070… ”

The rate of progress

Earlier Peter said something interesting: “ We started 250,000 years ago, then we go into 125, then 50 then so on…. Things get faster, progress happens exponentially quicker. ”
But if you plot every single event on human and animal history and geological history, it all plots on the same logarithmic scale, very, very tight clustering
And right around 2045, the line is fucking vertical
And so when Mike makes predictions (which are not his, he’s just parroting what other smarter people have said) of possibly getting traction on almost every kind of disease in the 2030s
This isn’t the wishful thinking of a child Mike adds, “ Though mentally I’m below the average child, at least in my own heart. ”
This is something that is inevitable based on our incremental understanding and manipulation of the world
Mike adds, “ Though mentally I’m below the average child, at least in my own heart. ”

It is the most accurate type of prediction that you could make bereft of exact knowledge because it’s the thing that tracks on that exponential progression

If we’re pessimistic about it, we’re actually estimating that things will somehow progress substantially less than they have been

Computing power is an easy one

That curve of computing power in the early 2020s, people thought Moore’s law was dead
But then AI picked up the pace and it’s outpacing Moore’s law like crazy
Exactly on the trajectory that Ray Kurzweil was the first one, probably the best to formalize

So when Mike says crazy shit like we’re going to kibosh aging, we’re going to kibosh disease and all this other stuff, it’s tantamount to someone in the 1930s (peak depression era days) hearing that in the 2020s, you can make $16 an hour working at McDonald’s and that in the United States, the poorest people are the fattest

Can you imagine describing to a person in the 1930s what you do for a living?

Social media… they don’t know what that is
We’re still in the same physical world, we’re still the same humans
Anytime you think there’s no way it’s going to get this good, all disease eradicated
When’s the last time you’ve treated a patient with cholera? Do we have cholera in the modern Western world anymore?
Do we have cholera in the modern Western world anymore?

Peter responds, “ This is where I’m less optimistic, no more confident to be clear, I want to be very clear. ”

Mike concedes that he could be wrong about all of this
Peter agrees with everything said in terms of computing velocity, etc.

It comes down to the manipulation of biology

Certain things would need to be true

Silly example

Do we believe that in 10 years we will be able to take an egg that has been put into a frying pan, fried, the clear part has turned white and make the white part clear again?
Do we think 10 years will bring the technology to do that?

Mike replies, “ Yeah. Hell yeah. ”

Peter asks, “ But why do we think that we’ll be able to unfold proteins again? ”

Because Google’s DeepMind project just mastered protein folding last year, and earlier this year, it took the first open contracts with major pharmaceutical companies
Peter is familiar with that, and it’s a remarkable problem for which a Nobel Prize was awarded
Peter is not sure that entropy would allow the reversal
What DeepMind did ‒ it’s incredible that they could actually take an amino acid sequence and predict the protein structure in folding
But when the protein has folded, which is why the egg goes from clear to white in the pan, how do we un-denature that?

Mike’s answer: through industrially designed enzymes, which we do not have the brain power to design, but for which in the 2030s, AI will be comically overpowered for

We think we’re very complex, and by our own standards we’re insanely complex
But AI is so much smarter than us already in many of the relevant ways and soon to be smarter than us, to a degree that most of us have difficulty conceptualizing

Mike’s analogy

Imagine explaining to your dog why the only season inside of your house is a light summer day
The dog doesn’t know what seasons are
Its total communicative throughput involves gestures and emotions
It knows its name, it knows sit, it knows a few other things
You can’t explain this to a dog; it’s impossible

Mike thinks AI in 10 years will probably be several orders of magnitude smarter than us (we are the dogs in that analogy)

Peter doesn’t necessarily think that It’s not that he’s pessimistic… he just thinks others might wonder why Peter isn’t MORE optimistic
It’s not that he’s pessimistic… he just thinks others might wonder why Peter isn’t MORE optimistic

The role of AI in accelerating drug development, advancing human longevity, and overcoming biological limitations [2:19:45]

Mike’s optimism about the future of AI for drug development and more

Mike thinks AI will be dealing with problems that are much more complex than the reengineering of human biology
When the raw understanding of how to manipulate matter and energy to get any kind of shape you want at a given energy input, when that’s there, the only question is, are we going to try to do it or not?
That’s where Mike comes back to the incentives and constraints problem
The biggest hurdle to the development of advanced pharmacology and genetic engineering and so on to do this kind of thing is going to be regulatory in nature Hands down, FDA, everything’s off by 5 or 10 years
Once AI has enough time to cook on these problems, the candidate drugs released will run through trials with just an unreal record
Peter thinks AI is going to do a great job of the 1st step of the process, which is trial and error to find the right molecule It’s brute force; it’s super painful
AlphaFold changes that
Hands down, FDA, everything’s off by 5 or 10 years
It’s brute force; it’s super painful

How is AI going to streamline the phase one trial where we have to prove once we have the IND ?

No, it doesn’t streamline that at all
It just flies through it, knocks out phase I, knocks out phase II, knocks out phase II, market Peter still thinks going through this is going to take a decade
But at the end of that decade, we have super drugs hitting the market all at the same time as opposed to the incremental process
The increments are all handled up front by the AI and that last decade is just, we just got to do this
Peter still thinks going through this is going to take a decade

Peter asks, “ So your example would be, it’s like coming up with retatrutide in 2014 when we had liraglutide as the first generation GLP-1 that sucked. ”

Yep
We already knew how to build retatrutide back then and we could have just done it
No one cared because the money wasn’t there/there’s lots of other candidate drugs you could work on Peter hadn’t thought about that
Peter hadn’t thought about that

Mike thinks if the AI is powerful enough, it’ll just give you candidates that are killers right offhand

Peter asks, “ How will it know that, because… didn’t we need to see that, okay, semaglutide was better than liraglutide? ”

Peter doesn’t know if this was predictable
You had to actually see the experience to then go from semaglutide to tirzepatide and realize that maybe it’s the GIP as well as the GLP that’s really good.
It’s a very tantalizing proposition, but Peter wonders how much of it can be figured out through simulation, which is what would be necessary
Mike thinks, eventually all of it

The second rung of what’s starting to happen now

The first rung is candidate drugs based on protein structure alone and will that protein structure fold into the receptor we’re targeting well enough to give us some activity
The second phase is computationally going to be tractable quite soon: simulating every single protein in the human body and seeing how that candidate drug interacts with every single other protein and they just optimize the selection criteria for To dial up the effect and dial down the side effect
To dial up the effect and dial down the side effect

Mike asks, “ Are you familiar with gepirone (brand name Exua) , a new major depressive disorder medication? ”

No
Mike thinks it’s an SSRI [ Wikipedia says it’s a partial agonist of the serotonin 5-HT 1A receptor and an active metabolite of geipirone is an α2-adrenergic receptor antagonist]
It only targets the serotonin receptors in specific parts of the brain as opposed to just you’re going to get it all
It has seemingly no more probability to reduce sex drive or ultra consumption of food patterns than a placebo
That’s not even developed with AI
That’s just a more selective targeting
[ Wikipedia says it’s a partial agonist of the serotonin 5-HT 1A receptor and an active metabolite of geipirone is an α2-adrenergic receptor antagonist]

We can get almost 100 to 0 ratio targeting with that phase two approach

Hypothetical drug development example

Now you just want muscle growth and skeletal muscles only; you got it
Entirely AI driven and when the first phase I participant takes that first pill, there’s an almost 100% chance that you’re just going to be like, “ Holy crap, what else do you feel? How’s your blood work? ” Everything’s totally normal because we’ve tested it on every single other receptor in the human body
There are definitely bumps in the road with that
It’s not quite just that simple, but it’s on the way there
Everything’s totally normal because we’ve tested it on every single other receptor in the human body

“ The power of computing all of this and then using that computation to test it in the human body and getting iterative loops on that is to me not to be understated. ”‒ Mike Israetel

If somehow biology is magically intractable for older folks

Mike thinks you will be able to scan the human brain, and the brain machine interface and mind uploading is going to happen by the 2040s
So then it doesn’t matter what the hell your body’s like, you live in the cloud
Peter has thought about that a bunch and is not sure he likes it

Mike asks, “ Why not? You can always just unplug. ”

The philosophical implications of simulated reality, the impact of robotics on human labor and economics, and the challenge of predicting the future [2:25:15]

If you had to choose in The Matrix whether you wanted to just stay in “the matrix” and be completely oblivious to the swamp that you actually live in, or would you rather be unplugged from “the matrix” and eat the porridge every day and hang out with Morpheus?

Mike has a worse answer
He’d fight on the side of the machines; he wants the machines to win
In or out of “the matrix”? Mike would let them use him as best they can
The Matrix is an unbelievable series of films Until the last one
Mike would let them use him as best they can
Until the last one

Peter asks, “ How could they possibly have ruined that franchise? ”

Mike hasn’t seen it because his friend (someone he trusts very dearly) Dr. James Hoffmann said, “ Just don’t watch it .”
He’s seen the last 3 Star Wars films and he wishes he could unsee those
Peter’s advice, after you see the final version of The Matrix, you have to go and watch the first two 3x over again to purge it
Mike’s take on the second film in the series: it’s the greatest action film ever made The freeway scene, you just can’t beat that That’s the only reason that movie is any good
The Matrix presupposition is preposterous on almost every ground that you think about it The machines had in the plot of The Matrix a type of fusion, but they also used us as batteries (are you kidding?) Also, how are they feeding us?
The other thing is they said that we tried to make The Matrix sublime and angelic Entire crops were lost, people rejected it Bullshit You put someone unknowingly into a Lord of the Rings fantasy in which they’re like the king and they get to win the game: they’re just going to play that for forever
The freeway scene, you just can’t beat that
That’s the only reason that movie is any good
The machines had in the plot of The Matrix a type of fusion, but they also used us as batteries (are you kidding?)
Also, how are they feeding us?
Entire crops were lost, people rejected it
Bullshit
You put someone unknowingly into a Lord of the Rings fantasy in which they’re like the king and they get to win the game: they’re just going to play that for forever

Mike anticipates a high probability that vast fractions of the human race will disappear into the simulation willingly

Imagine a place where you can run your brain at 1,000X normal speed and live 1,000 lives in the span of a regular human lifetime You’re a vampire in one of them You’re a superman in another one Or you’re living a whole lifespan where you’re totally unaware that you made yourself forget And then you wake up after you die and you’re like, “ Holy shit, this is all a game ” You could do all of that for forever
Who’s going to look at reality and then go, “ I’m good on that. I want to live in a ‘Lord of the Rings’ fantasy. ”
A lot of people play World of Warcraft right now for most of their waking life
You’re a vampire in one of them
You’re a superman in another one
Or you’re living a whole lifespan where you’re totally unaware that you made yourself forget And then you wake up after you die and you’re like, “ Holy shit, this is all a game ” You could do all of that for forever
And then you wake up after you die and you’re like, “ Holy shit, this is all a game ”
You could do all of that for forever

In the future, that’s going to be a choice

Now, some people aren’t going to want to do that, and that’s total respect

Our real world is going to change

Look at modern Austin, Texas
It’s kind of an idyllic place if you think about it compared to 1900 London There’s no air pollution There’s no crime, relatively speaking, etc.
There’s no air pollution
There’s no crime, relatively speaking, etc.

Mike’s optimism about the era of robotics

So in the 2030s, here’s another little gem of optimism: the era of robotics is coming
If the average robot costs a fifth less of inputs to sustain per year maintenance etc. than a human, but produces roughly the same output as a human And this is a sick joke because robotics will exceed human production very quickly
And this is a sick joke because robotics will exceed human production very quickly

You can make as many robots as you want, and that multiplies the GDP linearly with each robot

Elon Musk has spoken about this
There’s a potential for robots in the 2030s or 2040s to be 10 to 1 to the average human

⇒ You institute a 10% tax on the robotics industry and no human ever has to work again (universal basic income completely solved)

So then what will humans do?

They’re going to do a lot of stuff
Some people will engage in productive activities
Some people will live their awesome lives in the reality of a physical world
A lot of people (incrementally more and more) are going to plug in to increasingly more well-simulated virtual reality and spend a lot of time over there

Mike thinks the kind of stuff that’s coming in the future is either World War III and everything dies (the machines choose to kill us) or something so sublime we can barely understand it

If you describe to the average person in 1300s England how the average American lives today

They would be like, “ What the hell are you talking about? Kings don’t live like this. ”
Can you explain to a subsistence farmer what Uber Eats is? Peter agrees, you couldn’t explain it to the King of France 500 years ago
Peter can’t fathom what a world looks like in a 100 years, whether he’s here or not He spends very little time trying to imagine this
Mike thinks about this a lot
Peter agrees, you couldn’t explain it to the King of France 500 years ago
He spends very little time trying to imagine this

Peter thinks it will be more difficult to predict the next 100 years than going back 100 years and trying to predict today (based on the trajectory of growth)

Mike thinks Peter’s approach to health and wellness has been infinitely more wise than his own
This will give yourself the best possible chance to make it to the crazy 2040 stuff
Operating from a framework of everything you do is longevity oriented ‒ Mike thinks everyone should be living that that
If in 2032 they solve reverse aging, a few months later all of us take the pill and we’re all 22 biologically We could all have the biggest fucking party of all time
It’ll be great, but you might not make it to that party if you’re throwing back Cheetos right now
In Mikes defense, he used some drugs but was incredibly health conscious in that context and still is
We could all have the biggest fucking party of all time

Back in the 1940s there was a serious discussion of quality of life versus longevity

You try to sell someone no more beer, no more cigarettes Like why? So I could live 20 years longer For what? So I could work on a factory 20 years longer and grind my fingers off on the stamping press You give them back their beer and cigarettes
Like why?
So I could live 20 years longer
For what?
So I could work on a factory 20 years longer and grind my fingers off on the stamping press
You give them back their beer and cigarettes

In the mid-2020s legitimate thinkers in the space are talking about longevity, escape velocity, are talking about true immortality

Not capital “I” Immortality, lowercase “i”
You still could still get hit by a bus, but brain in the cloud type of stuff

Now is probably the most pertinent time where reading Peter’s book , consuming his material, listening to your stuff and the experts that he has on is the smartest thing people in their 40s and 50s and 60s could do

Because look, if you’re in your 20s, whatever, rock on
If you’re in your 40s, 50s, 60s, you might make it to this paradise stuff in the 2030s, but barely
Tell yourself, “ Thank God I ate some friggin broccoli and went to bed at 9:00 PM ,” where as an alternative you could have had one too many margaritas and Cheetos and not made it that far

Would having kids change Mike’s philosophy around anabolic steroid use? [2:32:15]

If you had kids, would it change your philosophy around training anabolic steroid use?

It’s really a question of trade-off

Up until a few years ago, Mike thought he was going to have kids
And he was very aware of the trade-offs

The answer is, probably not

Mike adds, “ I’m statistically likely with my current exposure and no increase in biotechnology throughput to croak in my 60s or 80s, probably more like 70s, maybe late-60s. ”

That suggests that his steroid use is a 20-year reduction of lifespan (realistic worse case)

How are you quantifying that?

Very heuristically
Mike is familiar with what kind of cycles other people have done, what kind of body weights they’ve gotten to, body fats, health metrics
It looks like most bodybuilders from Arnold’s era are still kicking

Do you attribute that to the fact that they were just using a fraction of the drugs?

It’s by no means clear that they were using a fraction of the drugs Some of those guys were cranking it
They were using fewer drugs on average, but with many exceptions
Mike attributes that to the fact that as long as your blood pressure is not chronically elevated, and as long as you don’t have shitty genetics for longevity, you can do a lot of shit to yourself and still make it quite far Whereas other people take great care to do everything and they croak in their mid-fifties because that’s just the card they were dealt
Most older pro wrestlers, bodybuilders, they’re still with us
A decent fraction of them have died, but many people just die in their mid-70s
Many of them had grotesque abuses Many pro-wrestlers had a cocaine problem, and the steroids were just a “drop in the bucket”
Some of those guys were cranking it
Whereas other people take great care to do everything and they croak in their mid-fifties because that’s just the card they were dealt
Many pro-wrestlers had a cocaine problem, and the steroids were just a “drop in the bucket”

“ It’s just not true to say that anabolic endogenic steroid use, even in extreme circumstances, just straight up drops you like a fly .”‒ Mike Israetel

Severe alcoholism will do you in
There are not a lot of 70 or 80 year olds that are severe alcoholics

Anabolic steroid abuse is a category of risk lower than that ‒ Mike estimates there’s a 5-20 year lifespan reduction from the steroids he’s taken

⇒ Peter wants to make sure that people understand that we’re not talking about physiologic replacement of testosterone, because the evidence is abundantly clear that we do not see any reduction in lifespan or increase in risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, or other things

Mike doesn’t like the term abuse Call it intelligent, purposeful, high-dose androgen exposure
There’s huge quality of life increase
It’s definitely taken years off his life, and it will probably peg him into his 60s somewhere
Call it intelligent, purposeful, high-dose androgen exposure

The role of GLP-1 agonists in bodybuilding and general weight management, and the moral and philosophical debates surrounding their use [2:35:45]

Are we seeing more bodybuilders now use GLP-1 agonists ?

Yes
It would make the most difficult part of bodybuilding easier, which is the calorie restriction
There are 3 groups of people in bodybuilding today
1 – People that have emphatically adopted the use of GLP-1s
2 – People that either use or don’t use but don’t say much about them Either don’t care or don’t know or they’re using, but they’re shush about it
3 – People that are absolutely viciously opposed to them for reasons that are almost always wildly irrational, but moralistically understandable
Either don’t care or don’t know or they’re using, but they’re shush about it

Peter asks, “ Just to be clear, is there a category of bodybuilder who fully endorses the liberal use of anabolic steroids, but opposes the use of GLP-1 agonists? ”

Vehemently

The argument is, you have to suffer through the hunger to call yourself a competitive bodybuilder

There’s 2 types of suffering: the pain of the gym and the pain of starving
If they’re saying you have to have both of those to be one of us, then steroids are not a problem They allow you to push yourself much harder So maybe steroids are an important part of bodybuilding if the suffering is the card and the GLP-1 agonist is not
They allow you to push yourself much harder
So maybe steroids are an important part of bodybuilding if the suffering is the card and the GLP-1 agonist is not

⇒ Mike is in the camp of: if we’re in the business of using any form of pharmacology to enhance your physique, then we should take whatever we can get provided it’s safe

There are 2 things that folks aren’t considering

If you can achieve a certain level of body fat through caloric restriction without GLP-1s, when you use any given dose of GLP-1s to reduce your hunger, you get 2 things out of that
1 – Now you can push to even more exotically lean levels, which you should be We’re not trying to race to the same point The destination changes If you can get some faint glutes striations and win a few shows without GLP’s, maybe you can get completely stripped out of your mind with them It’s just as hard
Hungry at 3% body fat is a very different look than just as hungry at 6% One is GLP enhanced, one is not That’s a big deal to remember
2 – You have to deal with side effects of GLPs They give you heartburn
There is a certain amount of food focus they don’t eliminate Watching people on TV eat tasty foods when you’re in prep is not as difficult because you’re not physiologically as hungry, but you still have cravings Cravings are lower, but they’re still there and you still dream about food and the whole gamut It’s not complete kiboshing of hunger Mike hopes one day very soon we’ll achieve that, and that’ll be a miraculous thing that’ll save hundreds of millions of people from the obesity epidemic
But then, if you have more bandwidth (because shit is easier), you’ll just push your conditioning further, get even leaner That’s a big deal that people seem to forget
We’re not trying to race to the same point
The destination changes
If you can get some faint glutes striations and win a few shows without GLP’s, maybe you can get completely stripped out of your mind with them
It’s just as hard
One is GLP enhanced, one is not
That’s a big deal to remember
They give you heartburn
Watching people on TV eat tasty foods when you’re in prep is not as difficult because you’re not physiologically as hungry, but you still have cravings
Cravings are lower, but they’re still there and you still dream about food and the whole gamut
It’s not complete kiboshing of hunger Mike hopes one day very soon we’ll achieve that, and that’ll be a miraculous thing that’ll save hundreds of millions of people from the obesity epidemic
Mike hopes one day very soon we’ll achieve that, and that’ll be a miraculous thing that’ll save hundreds of millions of people from the obesity epidemic
That’s a big deal that people seem to forget

The other deal is there is a preposterous amount of assuming that work and diligence are the big variables that separate bodybuilders

Usually that assumption is made by people with elite genetics and it’s just not true
Mike’s jujitsu coach, a gentleman named Mr. Will Starks , is a phenomenal professional MMA athlete [shown below] Will eats a very clean diet, very healthy diet, but he has tons of freebies, potato chips, pizza here and there, no big deal He trains for mixed martial arts; he’s a pro He has glute striations He walks around and lives his life at 7% body fat ‒ that’s just how he exists in the world It would take him one cycle of training to turn pro He’s drug-free
Will eats a very clean diet, very healthy diet, but he has tons of freebies, potato chips, pizza here and there, no big deal
He trains for mixed martial arts; he’s a pro
He has glute striations
He walks around and lives his life at 7% body fat ‒ that’s just how he exists in the world
It would take him one cycle of training to turn pro
He’s drug-free

Figure 7. Will Starks . Image credit: Instagram

If you look at his glutes in the gym, you would think that takes a lot of hard work
Mike explains, “ Bullshit, it took no work at all, he trains his ass off in MMA, but how many MMA guys do you see striated glutes? It’s almost not a thing. ”
Mike’s plan for him to turn drug-free pro: have him diet for 6 weeks and start resistance training for hypertrophy (for the 1st time in his life)

Mike asks, “ If you have someone on stage against him who takes second place, but they started their diet at 20% body fat and their diet took 18 weeks, who worked harder? ”

You would say the guy with the striated glutes did, but you would be wrong

When you look at people using GPLs, you assume everyone has decent genetics, but that’s not true

⇒ People who have been fatter before have a much harder time getting lean for a bunch of different reasons

They’re dealing with the same genetics that got them fat, and they have excess fat cells that scream hunger signaling into the ether all the time

The idea that bodybuilding is about earning your keep and grinding and suffering is true, but we already use enhancement in so many different ways, why not use enhancement in this other way?

What do you think that tells us about the morality of GLP-1 use much more commonly?

The majority of people using GLP-1 agonists and dual agonists are not bodybuilders; it’s normal people
Let’s take out the category of people with type 2 diabetes or with such significant obesity that it’s impacting their health in ways that are direct and measurable through the excess adiposity
The majority of people who use a GLP-1 agonist right now are overweight but might be perfectly healthy

Most of what they say is that you have to earn your fitness; if you are lazy and you just take a pill and you lose all the weight, you haven’t addressed the root cause of the issue, which is your poor diet

There is something to say there
But Mike doesn’t understand much further about their logic
They’re not thinking a lot; they’re just having a lot of feeling

The reality is that probably the 2 biggest predictors of how obese someone is are your genetic hunger drive and your degree of conscientiousness

A lot of people use physical fitness as a proxy for conscientiousness, the ability to organize your life, to delay gratification, etc.
The only thing that the GLPs eliminate as a category of problem is the hunger drive (they reduce it substantially)
So now we’re left with people that are leaner, some of whom just have average conscientiousness, but now low food drive and now they’re leaner
This especially upsets people that have lost weight themselves on their own and they took a certain moral worthiness , a certain gold star on their chest for it, to say, “ I was conscientious and willful enough to do this. ” Those people are correct: what they did was monumental and ultra impressive They feel ripped off because other people are now doing it by just taking a weekly injection
Those people are correct: what they did was monumental and ultra impressive
They feel ripped off because other people are now doing it by just taking a weekly injection

Mike believes, “ But that belief in yourself, that flexing of your conscientious muscle that you did, it’s your benefit for yourself to keep. ”

The other way to think about it is if you had to lose 20 pounds and really focus yourself to do it and to keep the weight off, you’re focused all the time
What you could do is take an anorectic drug (GLP-1 for example), and now you don’t have to try as hard to limit yourself because your appetite is normal And you can take all of that bandwidth of willpower and effort and conscientiousness and apply it to something else (business, family life)
And you can take all of that bandwidth of willpower and effort and conscientiousness and apply it to something else (business, family life)

If you have to diet hard enough to lose a bunch of weight, your bandwidth for your work, your bandwidth for family, your bandwidth for enjoying your life have to go down

Peter asked, “ Has that been your experience? Which is it hasn’t actually changed what you’re eating, it’s just given you the privilege of focusing less on the starvation and the management of diet? ”

Exactly

Mike’s wife was either genetically or epigenetically geared to get fat

At one point, she was almost 200 pounds (at 4’11”)
She probably has more willpower than Mike has ever seen in a single human being She’ll break herself before she quits at stuff
Her hunger signaling was so profound ‒ she battled it her whole life, had lots of victories, lots of defeats She almost failed out of medical school because she was dieting so hard to try to stay to certain body fat that her brain just wasn’t working
Her introduction to GLPs (to Ozempic ) was the kind of thing that borders on the religious experience For the first time ever to be like, “ Oh, this is how normal people live their lives .” And now she’s whatever body weight she wants to be and lives at a category level of life experience she was unable to access before because Especially for females of reproductive age, having 70 pounds extra adiposity ‒ how the world sees you, how you see yourself is totally different
She’ll break herself before she quits at stuff
She almost failed out of medical school because she was dieting so hard to try to stay to certain body fat that her brain just wasn’t working
For the first time ever to be like, “ Oh, this is how normal people live their lives .”
And now she’s whatever body weight she wants to be and lives at a category level of life experience she was unable to access before because
Especially for females of reproductive age, having 70 pounds extra adiposity ‒ how the world sees you, how you see yourself is totally different

It’s easy for bodybuilders and other folks to say, “ We just got to get through it .”

But these guys don’t do anything except shoot steroids, play PlayStation, and train with weights
For Mike, it’s very easy to connect with his wife on food drive after he had to diet down to a body fat that was appropriate for competitive bodybuilding
You feel what it’s like to be obsessed ‒ all you’re thinking about is food Food tastes good to a level that you’re like, “ Am I eating drugs? ” And you’re in pain physically from the expansion of your abdominal tract and you’re still eating and your eyes are this wide, like a hungry ravenous dog who is tortured and not allowed to eat for a long time That’s how a lot of people live in the world
Food tastes good to a level that you’re like, “ Am I eating drugs? ”
And you’re in pain physically from the expansion of your abdominal tract and you’re still eating and your eyes are this wide, like a hungry ravenous dog who is tortured and not allowed to eat for a long time
That’s how a lot of people live in the world

There are 2 variables that primarily determine how fat you are: food noise and conscientiousness

If we just end the food noise ‒ just to remove one impediment is amazing
Some people will still be overweight even if they’re on Ozempic because eating enough Rheese’s Cups will defeat any amount of pharmacology
People come at this from a morality, you have to earn your keep

Mike’s views on the use of GLP-1 receptor agonists in sports

Now in sport competition, hell yeah, it’s cheating
But in bodybuilding competition, they don’t test for drugs at all ‒ it’s not cheating at all
People take this morality, this cheating stuff, and they put it out in the real world

Use by cyclists

Cycling is a sport where the rules are clear: no performance enhancing drugs
But to date, all the performance enhancement has been on the generation of power, EPO, testosterone, things like that

⇒ But anybody who’s ever ridden a bike knows it’s half power, half weight; and cyclists spend a lot of time being hungry

Mike thinks many of them do [use GLP-1 agonists] (some don’t)
But if there is a drug that solves a very big problem for you, that makes you better, and you’re purporting to be a drug-free federation, then yes, you should be testing for it and it should be a banned substance

Parting comments

A lot of people are going to find this conversation super interesting
Peter should probably sit down with Mike and do this again because he has a list of topics they didn’t get to

Selected Links / Related Material

Mike co-founded Renaissance Periodization : RP Strength (2024) | [1:15, 7:00]

Mike’s YouTube Channel : Mike Israetel (2024) | [1:30, 8:30]

Dorian Yates podcast with Peter : Peter Attia MD: Improving Health and Aging Better Through Exercise | Dorian Yates Nutrition (August 20, 2024) | [36:00]

RP YouTube channel : @RenaissancePeriodization (2024) | [55:15]

RP hypertrophy app : Muscle Growth Made Simple (2024) | [55:15, 1:17:45]

American College of Sports Medicine Physical Activity Guidelines : A CSM Physical Activity Guidelines (2024) | [1:02:45]

Menno Henselmans PT course : The Henselmans PT Course Certification (2024) | [1:08:30]

Peter’s Instagram post explaining reps in reserve : peterattiamd (2023) | [1:17:15]

High-protein David bars : David Shop Bars (2024) | [1:31:45]

Episode of The Drive that discussed anabolic steroids : #274 – Performance-enhancing drugs and hormones: risks, rewards, and broader implications for the public | Derek: More Plates, More Dates (October 9, 2023) | [1:36:00]

Episode of The Drive that discussed testosterone replacement therapy : [1:36:00]

#291 ‒ The role of testosterone in males and females, performance-enhancing drugs, sustainable fat loss, supplements, and more | Derek, More Plates More Dates Pt.2 (February 26, 2024)
#196 – AMA #32: Exercise, squats, deadlifts, BFR, and TRT (February 21, 2022)
#180 – AMA #28: All things testosterone and testosterone replacement therapy (August, 27, 2021)

RP Strength video on what it feels like to be on a high dose of testosterone : Roid Rage is REAL | Renaissance Periodization (October 22, 2024) | [1:41:30]

People Mentioned

Travis Triplett (Professor of Physiology of Exercise and Director of the Exercise Science Undergraduate Program at Appalachian State University; Mike’s Master’s advisor) [6:30]
Jeffrey McBride (Professor of Human Movement Studies at Appalachian State University; Mike’s Master’s advisor) [6:30]
Nick Shaw (Co-Founder and CEO of RP strength; former competitive bodybuilder and an IFB Pro) [6:45]
Mike Stone (Professor of Exercise and Sport Science, Director of the Sport Science Laboratory, and Program Coordinator for the Sport Physiology and Performance PhD program at East Tennessee State University; Mike’s PhD advisor) [7:30]
Bradley Schoenfeld (Professor of Exercise Science at Lehman College; expert in muscle hypertrophy) [8:15]
Ronnie Coleman (retired professional bodybuilder known as “The King,” shares the record for most Mr. Olympia titles) [9:30]
Jay Cutler (retired professional bodybuilder and 4-time Mr. Olympia winner) [9:45]
Tim Noakes (Emeritus professor in the Division of Exercise Science and Sports Medicine at the University of Cape Town, South Africa) [31:30]
Dorian Yates (retired professional bodybuilder who won the Mr. Olympia title 6 consecutive times) [36:00, 1:33:00]
Mike Mentzer (1951-2001, IFBB professional bodybuilder, devised the Heavy Duty Training program) [37:30]
Joe Jeffery (physique coach in the UK and bodybuilder) [1:45:00]
Ray Kurzweil (American computer scientist, author, entrepreneur, futurist, and inventor) [12:15:15]
James Hoffmann (Coach at RP Strength and former Program Director Exercise and Sport Science at Temple University) [2:26:00]
Elon Musk (Businessman known for his roles in the companies SpaceX, Tesla, and media platform X, formerly Twitter) [2:28:00]
William Starks (Professional MMA athlete and jiu jitsu coach) [2:40:00]

Mike Israetel earned his PhD in Sport Physiology from East Tennessee State University. Dr. Mike is a seasoned expert in the field of fitness and performance. Formerly a professor at Lehman College, Temple University, and the University of Central Missouri, he taught a variety of exercise science courses focusing on nutrition, strength, and hypertrophy.

Dr. Israetel has also worked as a sports nutrition consultant for the U.S. Olympic Training Site in Johnson City, Tennessee. He has personally coached countless athletes in nutrition and weight training, and continues to push his own limits as a competitive bodybuilder and professional Brazilian Jiu Jitsu grappler.

Dr. Israetel coauthored many ebooks including The Renaissance Diet 2.0 , Scientific Principles of Hypertrophy Training , Understanding Healthy Eating , Scientific Principles of Strength Training, Recovering from Training , The Minicut Manual , and How Much Should I Train . He cofounded Renaissance Periodization and is currently their head science consultant. [ RP ]

Instagram: drmikeisraetel

Mike’s YouTube Channel: @MikeIsraetelMakingProgress

RP YouTube Channel: @RenaissancePeriodization Website: RP

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