podcast Peter Attia 2022-12-19 topics

#235 ‒ Training principles for mass and strength, changing views on nutrition, creatine supplementation, and more | Layne Norton, Ph.D.

Audio

Show notes

Layne Norton holds a Ph.D. in nutritional sciences and is a physique coach, natural bodybuilder and powerlifter, and two-time previous podcast guest. In this episode, Layne discusses his training as a powerlifter and shares training principles that non-powerlifters can apply to improve muscle strength and mass. Layne goes in-depth on creatine supplementation, including the benefits for lean mass and strength, and addresses the common arguments against its regular usage. Additionally, Layne touches on many areas of nutrition, including how his opinions have changed on certain topics. Layne also touches on the subjects of protein, fiber, and fat in the diet, as well as the different tools and dietary approaches for energy restriction.

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We discuss:

The sport of powerlifting and Layne’s approach during competitions [2:30];
Training for strength: advice for beginners and non-powerlifters [13:15];
Low-rep training, compound movements, and more tips for the average person [23:15];
How strength training supports longevity and quality of life: bone density, balance, and more [28:15];
Peak capacity for strength as a person ages and variations in men and women [33:00];
Effects of testosterone (endogenous and exogenous) on muscle gain in the short- and long-term [36:45];
How Layne is prepping for his upcoming IPF World Masters Powerlifting competition [44:00];
Creatine supplementation [54:30];
How important is rep speed and time under tension? [1:05:30];
Validity of super slow rep protocols, and the overall importance of doing any exercise [1:12:45];
Navigating social media: advice for judging the quality of information from “experts” online [1:23:00];
Layne’s views on low-carb diets, the tribal nature of nutrition, and the importance of being able to change opinions [1:34:45];
Where Layne has changed his views: LDL cholesterol, branched-chain amino acid supplementation, intermittent fasting, and more [1:42:00];
The carnivore diet, elimination diets, and fruits and vegetables [1:55:15];
Fiber: Layne’s approach to fiber intake, sources of fiber, benefits, and more [2:00:15];
Confusion around omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids and the Minnesota Coronary Experiment [2:05:00];
Layne’s views on fats in the diet [2:13:00];
Flexible dieting, calorie tracking, and the benefits of tracking what you eat to understand your baseline [2:18:00];
The nutritional demands of preparing for a bodybuilding show [2:30:45];
The psychological effects of aging and changes to one’s identity [2:42:00]; and
More.

Show Notes

*Notes from intro :

Layne Norton was a previous guest on episode #163 (May of 2021) , and then #205 (May of 2022)
In both of those discussions, we were never able to fully get through the content we wanted and we knew we were going to have to sit down and do this again
So here we are in round 3
In this episode, we talk about Layne’s training and work as a powerlifter This is in large part, because at the time we recorded this, Layne was in the final weeks of training for the World Masters Powerlifting Championship
We focused the conversation around what non-powerlifters can learn about muscle strength and the principles to get stronger in the weight room, even if they, of course, have no desire to ever compete in a powerlifting meet themselves
We also get into a much deeper dive around creatine, which we only lightly touched on in a previous podcast
We talk about fitness and nutrition experts on social media and the importance of being able to change your mind
We talk a lot about nutrition, and this includes the 3 areas of nutrition that Layne has changed his mind about over time
We also discuss some nuances around time restricted feeding, tracking calories, and more
Now just a way of quick background Layne is a bodybuilding figure and physique coach This is in addition to being a natural pro bodybuilder and professional powerlifter And though we didn’t know it at the time of this recording (we now know this intro was recorded), Layne has very recently won the 2022 Masters World Powerlifting Championship in October, in a drug free tested division
This is in large part, because at the time we recorded this, Layne was in the final weeks of training for the World Masters Powerlifting Championship
Layne is a bodybuilding figure and physique coach
This is in addition to being a natural pro bodybuilder and professional powerlifter
And though we didn’t know it at the time of this recording (we now know this intro was recorded), Layne has very recently won the 2022 Masters World Powerlifting Championship in October, in a drug free tested division

The sport of powerlifting and Layne’s approach during competitions [2:30]

Explain the sport of powerlifting

Right now he is training for the World Masters Powerlifting Championship
Powerlifting is a very basic sport, there are 3 lifts in the competition: 1 – squat 2- bench press 3 – deadlift and they go in that order
You get 3 attempts on each, and they’re progressive For example, once you put in an attempt, let’s say you put in a squat attempt of 550 pounds for your opener, if you miss it, you can’t go down So usually, people do a pretty conservative weight for their first attempt, kind of like a last warmup Second attempt is getting close to something that’s pretty reasonable, like RPE 9-9.5 ( rating of perceived exertion ) And then, your last one, you’re hoping to get kind of your true maximum
Basically, highest total between the 3 lifts wins
At Worlds, they will give medals for individual lifts There’ll be a gold, silver, and bronze for squat Gold, silver, bronze for bench press And gold, silver bronze for deadlift
And then, there’ll be those medals also for the overall The overall is just the summation of the total of the number of lifts you hit
1 – squat
2- bench press
3 – deadlift
and they go in that order
For example, once you put in an attempt, let’s say you put in a squat attempt of 550 pounds for your opener, if you miss it, you can’t go down
So usually, people do a pretty conservative weight for their first attempt, kind of like a last warmup
Second attempt is getting close to something that’s pretty reasonable, like RPE 9-9.5 ( rating of perceived exertion )
And then, your last one, you’re hoping to get kind of your true maximum
There’ll be a gold, silver, and bronze for squat
Gold, silver, bronze for bench press
And gold, silver bronze for deadlift
The overall is just the summation of the total of the number of lifts you hit

And when you do your 3 squats, 3 bench presses, 3 deadlifts, are you doing them in that order?

You do all 3 squats go, then all 3 bench presses, then all 3 deadlifts
The time between can vary The last time Layne did Worlds was in 2015, and that was a very, very fast meet That whole meet took just over 2 hours In his flight, there was only 11 people The person who has the lightest squat will go first up to the heaviest squat The same thing happens for the bench press and deadlift Layne has been at meets where it took as long as 3.5 hours Usually you get at least 30 minutes between lifts They run it so there are no real breaks for spectators They’ll have 2 flights going at the same time While the other folks are lifting, you’re warming up and getting ready
The last time Layne did Worlds was in 2015, and that was a very, very fast meet That whole meet took just over 2 hours In his flight, there was only 11 people
The person who has the lightest squat will go first up to the heaviest squat
The same thing happens for the bench press and deadlift
Layne has been at meets where it took as long as 3.5 hours
Usually you get at least 30 minutes between lifts
They run it so there are no real breaks for spectators They’ll have 2 flights going at the same time While the other folks are lifting, you’re warming up and getting ready
That whole meet took just over 2 hours
In his flight, there was only 11 people
They’ll have 2 flights going at the same time
While the other folks are lifting, you’re warming up and getting ready

What do you do in between? Does it matter what you eat? How do you maximize your odds?

Usually between the lifts (squat and bench press) we’ll have 30-60 minutes
Between the actual attempts (1st, 2nd, & 3rd) themselves, Layne will take a drink of water or might eat some candy quickly if he feels like he needs it For the most part, he’s mentally trying to get himself in the right zone This is a little tricky, because you can’t keep yourself at that really high level of arousal the entire time It will wear you out The trick is to bring the arousal down for 5 minutes or so (to relax), and the start to focus back up It’s almost like a wave
Timing is a big thing because when they call “ bar is loaded, ” you have 1 minute to get the down command for squat or bench press or whatever it is There can be mistakes where you come out and forget your belt or something happens So when they say “ bar is loaded ”, he gets out there very quickly so that if there is anything wrong, so he can address it and still have time
He likes to have 2-3 minutes to get very aroused and amped up He’ll do visualization and breath work in the last few minutes leading up to his lift
He wants to have his heart rate around 160-170 by the time he goes out to hit his lift
Peter wonders about his blood glucose, he imagines glucose output would be at its max Layne has never measured this
For the most part, he’s mentally trying to get himself in the right zone
This is a little tricky, because you can’t keep yourself at that really high level of arousal the entire time It will wear you out The trick is to bring the arousal down for 5 minutes or so (to relax), and the start to focus back up It’s almost like a wave
It will wear you out
The trick is to bring the arousal down for 5 minutes or so (to relax), and the start to focus back up
It’s almost like a wave
There can be mistakes where you come out and forget your belt or something happens
So when they say “ bar is loaded ”, he gets out there very quickly so that if there is anything wrong, so he can address it and still have time
He’ll do visualization and breath work in the last few minutes leading up to his lift
Layne has never measured this

Perception is important

Layne notes, “ Your stress hormones are going to be high… This is a little bit off topic, but I was listening to a sports psychologist talk about how the differences between excitement and anxiety and anxiousness, you can’t almost pick them out. It’s just your perception .”
He relates it to watching an episode of The Ultimate Fighter many years ago where it was Matt Serra versus Matt Hughes And one of the fighters was vomiting before a match, because he was so nervous He was over the bucket going, “ I can’t do this anymore. I hate the way this feels. I can’t do this. ” And Matt Serra just looked at him and said, “ What are you talking about, man? That’s the feeling of being alive. You care about something so much that your body is reacting this way. ”
And one of the fighters was vomiting before a match, because he was so nervous
He was over the bucket going, “ I can’t do this anymore. I hate the way this feels. I can’t do this. ”
And Matt Serra just looked at him and said, “ What are you talking about, man? That’s the feeling of being alive. You care about something so much that your body is reacting this way. ”

That reframing of things and just accepting and being okay with the anxiety has helped Layne so much

“ Ever since then, it completely flipped the way I looked at competition… And now, when I feel those nerves start to kick in, I just tell myself ‘this is a good thing, this is a good thing. This is your body getting you ready.’ ”‒ Layne Norton

Have you ever injured yourself in a meet?

Peter notes the stakes in powerlifting are really high and the meet is really short
He wonders if the states are high from an injury standpoint, because you’re pushing at your limit
Layne has not injured himself to the point where he had really bad pain or couldn’t continue
But at the Arnold Pro Meet back in 2015, he aggravated his back pretty badly, a week out The day of the meet, when he hit his last squat (661 lbs), he rotated a little bit coming up and he could definitely feel it the next day It was closer to his upper lumbar or lower thoracic, he had a lot of pain there
Typically don’t see people get injured at meets
It does happen, but Layne guesses it’s less frequent than during training Peter notes the volume of exercise when training probably leaves your more fatigued
Layne agrees
If you’ve done your due diligence to get ready for a meet, hopefully, you’ve dissipated a lot of that fatigue through rest and tapering
However, when you’re in the throes of training and you have high levels of fatigue, maybe you’re just not able to execute the lifts as well (because of that fatigue), and that’s where things tend to happen Especially if you’re doing multiple repetitions As you get close to the failure, there is the opportunity to get out of position or make mistakes
Injury is definitely one of the things that is part of the game You’re going to deal with pain
Layne always tells people “ I’m 40 now, and most 40 year olds, 50 year olds, they have pain anyway. So I’d rather be strong and have pain than be weak and have pain. ”
The day of the meet, when he hit his last squat (661 lbs), he rotated a little bit coming up and he could definitely feel it the next day
It was closer to his upper lumbar or lower thoracic, he had a lot of pain there
Peter notes the volume of exercise when training probably leaves your more fatigued
Especially if you’re doing multiple repetitions
As you get close to the failure, there is the opportunity to get out of position or make mistakes
You’re going to deal with pain

How many times a year can you peak for a meet at the top level of powerlifting?

Layne has done 1 per year and 4 per year (high level meets)
4 is way too much
He thinks the sweet spot for him is probably 2

Really, it’s about getting to competition day with enough fitness level, in terms of being able to execute heavy lifts, while dissipating fatigue and being in low enough levels of pain that you can execute

Afterwards when he feels good after a meet is the most dangerous because he tends to go right back into training
The smart thing to do is take some time to train for fun, keep that core strength, but move towards accessory movements and things that don’t beat you up so much for several months
Then you could re-enter more of a building/ accumulation phase Where the volume is going up, but the weights still aren’t super heavy
In those last 3 months, at the end of his training in preparation for competition, he ramps up to more heavy weights He’s mostly hitting heavy singles
Where the volume is going up, but the weights still aren’t super heavy
He’s mostly hitting heavy singles

Training for strength: advice for beginners and non-powerlifters [13:15]

What can the rest of us learn about strength?

Peter notes the 2 metrics most significantly associated with longevity are strength and cardiorespiratory fitness (as measured by VO 2 max ) Risk factors for all-cause mortality include smoking (50% increase), type 2 diabetes (30% increase in mortality), high blood pressure (20% increase in mortality), coronary artery disease, end stage kidney disease, being in the bottom 25% of the population for VO 2 max (having a low VO 2 max) Being weak, relative to being strong, is about 250% Having a very low Vo2 max in the bottom 25% of the population versus being in the top 2.5% of the population is about 400%
The 3rd thing that stands out is muscle mass But when you look at the data, you realize muscle mass is tightly associated with strength
For listeners whose eyes are sort of glazing over as they talk about powerlifting, it’s worth pointing out that even if you never do a heavy squat, heavy bench press, or heavy deadlift, you have to be strong
These associations show up over and over again in studies They use measures like grip strength, bench press, leg extension
Risk factors for all-cause mortality include smoking (50% increase), type 2 diabetes (30% increase in mortality), high blood pressure (20% increase in mortality), coronary artery disease, end stage kidney disease, being in the bottom 25% of the population for VO 2 max (having a low VO 2 max)
Being weak, relative to being strong, is about 250%
Having a very low Vo2 max in the bottom 25% of the population versus being in the top 2.5% of the population is about 400%
But when you look at the data, you realize muscle mass is tightly associated with strength
They use measures like grip strength, bench press, leg extension

It becomes important for people to understand how to train for power

Advice for training to get stronger

Layne notes, “ The principles are pretty much the same, it’s just the level to which they’re applied. And I think it’s important to point out that there are diminishing returns with strength .” He doesn’t think the studies are refined enough to pick this out at this point, because they’re not getting a population of powerlifters and looking at their longevity His guess is that at a certain point, you pretty much get all the benefits [for longevity], and just getting even stronger is probably not going to give you more
Risk of injury is also something you want to avoid You see this with running, a J-shaped curve People can take it so far (be it powerlifting, running, or whatever) that being an extremist in their sport can make them more prone to early mortality
He doesn’t think the studies are refined enough to pick this out at this point, because they’re not getting a population of powerlifters and looking at their longevity
His guess is that at a certain point, you pretty much get all the benefits [for longevity], and just getting even stronger is probably not going to give you more
You see this with running, a J-shaped curve
People can take it so far (be it powerlifting, running, or whatever) that being an extremist in their sport can make them more prone to early mortality

As far as strength goes, the most important core principle is progressive overload

When people hear this, many just think “weight on the bar”
So if you are a beginner and start doing squats, you do 95 lbs for 5 reps Then next week you do 100 lbs for 5 reps The next week you do 105 lbs for 5 reps This is 1 form of progressive overload, and for most people coming to the gym, this is their experience
But another effective form of progressive overload is increasing the reps (more on this below)
But when you’re getting started, just putting more weight on the bar every week is a perfectly reasonable way to progress
Then next week you do 100 lbs for 5 reps
The next week you do 105 lbs for 5 reps
This is 1 form of progressive overload, and for most people coming to the gym, this is their experience

-Example of how progressive overload works for anyone

People will say, “ Well, I’m postmenopausal woman” or “I’m a 75 year old male. It’s too late for me. ” No it’s not Now is the best time
When Layne was at the University of Illinois in the Department of Nutritional Sciences, he was right across the street from the Exercise Physiology Department, and they were conducting a study on frail elderly people (who almost couldn’t walk) They used progressive overload In the beginning, they were squatting to a really high chair Their progress was incredible In 12 weeks, they had people who could squat down to a below parallel chair and come back up (which is really something for a frail elderly person) “ The difference in functionality and their lifestyle is going to be incredible, in terms of what they can do ”
So, one aspect of progressive overload is to add weight on the bar
No it’s not
Now is the best time
They used progressive overload
In the beginning, they were squatting to a really high chair
Their progress was incredible
In 12 weeks, they had people who could squat down to a below parallel chair and come back up (which is really something for a frail elderly person)
“ The difference in functionality and their lifestyle is going to be incredible, in terms of what they can do ”

“ But nobody’s able to increase weight on the bar forever ”‒ Layne Norton

The longer you get into it, the more nonlinear it’s going to be

The various ways to achieve progressive overload

1 – Adding more weight (as mentioned above)
2 – More repetitions
3 – More hard sets (this is really something you only need to get to, as you get to be more advanced)
Peter notes, “ This is one thing that, from one of our earlier discussions, that really started to change my training. I started adding a little bit more sets at slightly lower RPE to net increase volume .” He was doing a lot more RPE 8-9, but only a few sets before he was really, really spent So he started doing a little more RPE 6-7 with more sets (more volume) He felt like this lowered his risk of injury And it was another way to progressively overload
Layne agrees, “ You’re always weighing those 2 things, your stimulus versus fatigue ratio ”
Layne is coached by a guy named Zach Robinson, who’s doing his PhD in Mike Zourdos’ lab at FAU He talks about stimulus versus fatigue a lot They do a lot of training in the RPE 5-6 area, which some people call easy
When it comes to compound lift, Layne wouldn’t really call it easy, but he thinks about, “ How can we maximize our stimulus and minimize fatigue? ”
If you’re talking about an RPE 9, how many sets at RPE 9 can you get? For Peter it’s 1-2 reps before he starts to compromise his form
Layne knows from doing sets to failure of 10 reps, for a free barbell squat he might not be able to get 2-3 reps on his next set because it’s so fatiguing When we talk about RPEs (a measure for proximity to failure), this is important to point out
He was doing a lot more RPE 8-9, but only a few sets before he was really, really spent
So he started doing a little more RPE 6-7 with more sets (more volume) He felt like this lowered his risk of injury And it was another way to progressively overload
He felt like this lowered his risk of injury
And it was another way to progressively overload
He talks about stimulus versus fatigue a lot
They do a lot of training in the RPE 5-6 area, which some people call easy
For Peter it’s 1-2 reps before he starts to compromise his form
When we talk about RPEs (a measure for proximity to failure), this is important to point out

How RPE works

RPE has been adapted from running to lifting
It’s on a scale of 1-10
At RPE 10, you have no more reps left This was your absolute 100% effort
At RPE 9, you could have done 1 more rep
At RPE 8, you could have done 2 more reps, so on and so forth
This was your absolute 100% effort

We know you don’t have to train to failure to grow muscle

Training to failure may even be a bit counterproductive in terms of the fatigue it causes relative to the stimulus

For most movements, you get the most hypertrophy and strength benefits going within a few reps of failure (a RPE of 7 or 8)

If you can do more volume , it may be even more beneficial
The downside is that people are really bad at estimating this, especially if you’ve never actually taken something to failure Beginners and intermediates tend to underestimate their RPE by about 5, which is pretty incredible When research makes them take the weight to failure (by yelling at them and encouraging them), on average they’ll get in 5 more reps than they had estimated
The RPE validity in advanced lifters tends to be much more accurate Layne was at a powerlifting meet where they had a Tendo unit on the bar and were measuring bar velocity as they asked them to rate their RPE after each attempt They found that RPE, as validated by velocity data, was a pretty good measure in that population of powerlifters, because they’ve taken so many sets near failure
Beginners and intermediates tend to underestimate their RPE by about 5, which is pretty incredible
When research makes them take the weight to failure (by yelling at them and encouraging them), on average they’ll get in 5 more reps than they had estimated
Layne was at a powerlifting meet where they had a Tendo unit on the bar and were measuring bar velocity as they asked them to rate their RPE after each attempt
They found that RPE, as validated by velocity data, was a pretty good measure in that population of powerlifters, because they’ve taken so many sets near failure

Layne’s summary: “ You do need some experience going really hard and really close to failure. But once you have that experience and you understand what that feels like, then you can estimate better. You’re probably better off staying a few reps shy of failure and accumulating volume that way, just because going to failure is just so incredibly fatiguing. ”

Low-rep training, compound movements, and more tips for the average person [23:15]

For a person who is not planning to go to a power meet, is there a need for them to go below four reps in training?

Probably not, you can get plenty strong even doing sets of 10-15
Now you will not be as strong (even per cross-sectional area) as somebody who trains for strength, because strength is a specific skill

Layne’s best squat and summary on strength

Layne’s best squat was 668 lbs 6 months out from this, he was able to squat with added weight But he has not added much more lean body mass He was practicing the skill of a one rep max (which allowed him to do better on the one rep max)
6 months out from this, he was able to squat with added weight
But he has not added much more lean body mass
He was practicing the skill of a one rep max (which allowed him to do better on the one rep max)

What % of his max was he training at?

Mostly at 90% for singles, sometimes 95%
His RPE was 8-9

Considering multiples, would Layne do a 600 lb single, 3 times in a workout?

Something like that
This teaches you how to grind through a lift
A lot of people have never had the experience of really sticking with a lift
Interestingly, the more advanced somebody gets (in terms of strength), the slower their one rep max velocity will be
Research studies show this all the time, somebody who’s kind of new will come in, they will absolutely smoke a weight, then you put 5 lbs on, and they get stapled Because they don’t have that grind capacity They don’t know how to do it Part of it may be psychological, but part of that’s probably physiological too They haven’t trained their body to recruit all the fibers that it can get
Because they don’t have that grind capacity
They don’t know how to do it
Part of it may be psychological, but part of that’s probably physiological too
They haven’t trained their body to recruit all the fibers that it can get

Layne’s summary on strength :

Lean body mass and strength are very closely tied together
But when it gets to those finer levels of strength, it’s kind of just practicing the actual one rep max
So when it comes to getting strong, you can absolutely get strong doing sets of 10, 15, because you’re increasing your lean body mass
Do you need to do sets of 3, 4? No But don’t count them out because a lot of people actually just do really well with variety
But don’t count them out because a lot of people actually just do really well with variety

Periodization (the planned manipulation of training variables (load, sets, and repetitions) in order to maximize training adaptations and to prevent the onset of overtraining syndrome) was kind of a big thing for lifting, back in the day, and now research studies show, it doesn’t appear to produce greater gains in lean body mass

It may provide a little bit better strength gains, but that’s probably just because people peak better when you’re periodizing things
People tend to like periodization better because they’re varying their repetition and are not as bored

“ So you never want to poo poo the psychological effects of those things… Adherence is the most important thing. ”‒ Layne Norton

Adherence to training

Layne always asks people, “ Well, what do you enjoy? What’s going to get you to show up consistently? ”
There are many ways to skin a cat, slightly less technical lifts that are still going to produce really great gains, in terms of strength and lean body mass

How important are compound movements?

Do you think there is still an essential need for some sort of compound movement, like a hip thruster, at least as a complement, or a leg press?

Peter is asking for the person who isn’t confident they have the technical ability to execute a squat or deadlift
You could mess up something like a hip thruster and hurt yourself, but it’s a lot harder with this exercise
Layne went through a phase where he thought everything learned from the magazines (the “bro science”) was junk, but now studies are coming out that validate some of this “bro science” from 20, 30 years ago There does appear to be different areas of the leg muscles (the quadriceps for example) that are better activated by, say, a leg extension, as compared to a leg press, compared to a squat
Layne thinks it’s good to have variety
He thinks it’s good to have compound lifts as well
There’s some interesting data that suggests that you don’t have to get as close to failure on compound lifts to still get the same stimulation, compared to isolation exercises (where you do seem to have to get much closer to failure to get those benefits) See studies listed in the selected links section at the end
There does appear to be different areas of the leg muscles (the quadriceps for example) that are better activated by, say, a leg extension, as compared to a leg press, compared to a squat
See studies listed in the selected links section at the end

How strength training supports longevity and quality of life: bone density, balance, and more [28:15]

If you’re looking at longevity or the quality of life the question is, “ What is most analogous to what these people are going to be doing and where they’re going to be needing it? ” If it’s bending over and picking something up, that’s some kind of hinge If it’s sitting down and standing back up, that’s some kind of squat You can use variations
If it’s bending over and picking something up, that’s some kind of hinge
If it’s sitting down and standing back up, that’s some kind of squat
You can use variations

For a beginner

Start with no weight and just teach them how to hinge How to use their hips How to use their knees How to track their legs with their feet How to balance and this sort of thing
Once they’re established with that, have them move on to holding a kettlebell in front of them Then you can progress with the weight of that
Then progress to something like a safety bar (where they’re not having to worry so much about hands and whatnot)
Next to a box
Eventually take the box away and maybe they can progress to a barbell squat
How to use their hips
How to use their knees
How to track their legs with their feet
How to balance and this sort of thing
Then you can progress with the weight of that

Layne’s summary: The puritan in me would be like, “Yes, everybody should barbell squat,” but I know that that’s not true. I think the biggest thing is just getting something close and analogous to the things that are going to be important in your day to day life as you get older .

Risk of falls for seniors

When you think about elderly people who fall, the stats are insane, something like half the people over age 65 who go to the hospital for a fall never come out
Peter has seen many studies on this, 30-40% of people over the age of 65 who break their hip will be dead within a year
This is due to infection, immobilization, or they get pneumonia (or something like that)

The benefits of lifting heavy weights for bone density

There was an Australian study of older women who had osteopenia (if not osteoporosis) who were put on a simple lifting program Peter saw the PI on YouTube discussing their results He remembers one lady deadlift her body weight These are women who had never lifted a weight before And their symptoms got so much better
Layne agrees the best thing you can do for bone density is lift weight
Peter saw the PI on YouTube discussing their results
He remembers one lady deadlift her body weight These are women who had never lifted a weight before And their symptoms got so much better
These are women who had never lifted a weight before
And their symptoms got so much better

Other benefits of strength and balance

He also points out that people get very focused on bone density, but what if they didn’t fall in the first place? What if they had the strength (&/or balance) to catch themselves?
With resistance training, even if you did fall, you’re going to have more muscle mass and you’re probably going to have more bone density‒ these are going to help
You can have all sorts of other interventions to improve lean body mass, but they all work way better with resistance training because you’re creating a need for the tissue
What if they had the strength (&/or balance) to catch themselves?

An teleological perspective on building muscle mass

Layne thinks this is something that has been missed in the teleological perspective of this‒ “ You have to give your body a reason to lay down tissue ”
Muscle is energetically expensive
The body is not going to go, “ Oh yeah, we got some extra calories. Let’s just lay down some lean tissue .” This doesn’t make sense from the body’s perspective The body wants to keep you alive long enough to reproduce, and once you’ve done that, it’s just trying to prevent you from starving
Over the course of human history, the risk of dying from starvation is magnitudes greater than from diseases from too much nutrition
This doesn’t make sense from the body’s perspective
The body wants to keep you alive long enough to reproduce, and once you’ve done that, it’s just trying to prevent you from starving

If you eat more protein you can lay done more lean mass, but it’s going to be minimal compared to what you can build through resistance training

“ When you couple resistance training with high enough protein (or any of these other modalities), now you’re creating the turnover in the tissue, that the body has the requirement to lay down that tissue ”‒ Layne Norton

Peak capacity for strength as a person ages and variations in men and women [33:00]

Is Layne stronger today than he was at 20?

Yeah

Is he stronger than he was at 35?

Layne has come off his peak a little bit
He doesn’t think it’s a sarcopenia thing but an accumulation of injuries and not being able to train the way he used to train
Peter summarizes Layne answer: Layne’s lower strength compared to age 35 is not necessarily because he’s losing type II fibers with age, it’s more about his capacity to train due to pain

Figure 1. Characteristics of different muscle fiber types.

Does Layne believe he could be as strong now as at age 30 (on a muscle biopsy basis)?

He thinks he probably could
In the literature, you do see differences between young and old, but most of those get ameliorated when you start adding in resistance training

MEN vs WOMEN:

Women can gain lean mass and strength just as much as men

Women have been shown to gain just as much lean mass as a percentage of their starting lean mass The increase is relative
For example, if one added 10% lean mass If you’re a male with 70 kg of lean mass, now you have 77 kg (154 lbs → 170 lbs) If your a female with 50 kg of lean mass, now you have 55 kg (110 lbs → 121 lbs)
The literature shows women can add the same % of lean mass as men, and the same thing for strength
The increase is relative
If you’re a male with 70 kg of lean mass, now you have 77 kg (154 lbs → 170 lbs)
If your a female with 50 kg of lean mass, now you have 55 kg (110 lbs → 121 lbs)

Differences in men and women

There is some evidence that women may be able to tolerate higher training volumes than men Most of these studies only looked at young adults (20s-30s) Layne wonders if this is more of a function of having a smaller body and handling less weight
Peter relates, “ My wife would tell you that no one can handle a cold less than me, and I think it’s true. I have an insanely high pain tolerance except for when my sinuses are congested and I have a miserable cough, then I turn into a little baby. So there might be something about women just being tougher too .”
Layne has thought about this quite a bit
Take super heavyweight powerlifters an an extreme example Ray Williams is one of the greatest drug tested powerlifters in history He’s the first man to raw squat over 1,000 pounds He was a college football player On a DEXA , he had 308 pounds of lean mass (and he’s probably over 400 pounds of total body weight) Let’s say we’re talking about working with 80% of a one-rep max His 80% is 800 lbs A female’s, if she’s doing a one-rep max of 300 lbs, 80% is 240 lbs
Most of these studies only looked at young adults (20s-30s)
Layne wonders if this is more of a function of having a smaller body and handling less weight
Ray Williams is one of the greatest drug tested powerlifters in history He’s the first man to raw squat over 1,000 pounds He was a college football player On a DEXA , he had 308 pounds of lean mass (and he’s probably over 400 pounds of total body weight)
Let’s say we’re talking about working with 80% of a one-rep max His 80% is 800 lbs A female’s, if she’s doing a one-rep max of 300 lbs, 80% is 240 lbs
He’s the first man to raw squat over 1,000 pounds
He was a college football player
On a DEXA , he had 308 pounds of lean mass (and he’s probably over 400 pounds of total body weight)
His 80% is 800 lbs
A female’s, if she’s doing a one-rep max of 300 lbs, 80% is 240 lbs

The % is the same but Layne is not sure you can say the same thing happens with the body because at the end of the day connective tissue is connective tissue

Layne knows very, very few super heavyweight powerlifters who train the main lifts 3-4 times a week Some of the lighter weight classes do
Some of the lighter weight classes do

Layne thinks there’s something about the absolute load

Part of him thinks the idea that women can recover a little bit better might be that they’re just using absolute lower loads But we’d have to have some more intricate data
But we’d have to have some more intricate data

Effects of testosterone (endogenous and exogenous) on muscle gain in the short- and long-term [36:45]

Peter adds that men and women have a full log difference in testosterone
He has heard people suggest that testosterone is not important in muscle gain But, you only need to look at tested versus untested powerlifters and bodybuilders to know testosterone’s doing something
But, you only need to look at tested versus untested powerlifters and bodybuilders to know testosterone’s doing something

How does Layne reconcile this?

Layne thinks one of the main benefits of testosterone is the increase in satellite cell number, which is going to increase your potential for increasing muscle mass This is a theory called the mononuclear dominant theory, but he doesn’t want to talk about it like it’s set in stone proven
Satellite cells are quiescent cells that sit on the outside of a muscle fiber And through various ways (resistance, training, testosterone, whatever), you can get those satellite cells to be donated to the muscle fiber
Muscle fiber is the only cell type that is multinucleated And we think the reason is each myonuclei can only control protein synthesis for a certain area
The muscle fiber can only grow as big as it has myonuclei So the more myonuclei you can donate, the greater your potential is
One reason we think that men have more lean mass than women is during puberty hormonal difference emerge, and exposure to testosterone increase the number of myonuclei This gives men a greater overall potential for lean mass Up until puberty, males and females tend to have similar amounts of lean mass
So now when you talk about taking exogenous levels of testosterone, now you’re donating even more myonuclei, and so, you can reach a higher ceiling
Layne thinks this is the strongest argument against the crossover of transgender sports for people who were previously male but now identify as female, you can’t get rid of the long term benefit conveyed by the fusion of those myonuclei He acknowledges this statement might get him in trouble Compare it muscle memory‒ if you have trained before but stop training, you can gain back muscle much faster than it takes to build it This is true even for people who have stopped training for years They gain it back faster than it originally took to build it
This is a theory called the mononuclear dominant theory, but he doesn’t want to talk about it like it’s set in stone proven
And through various ways (resistance, training, testosterone, whatever), you can get those satellite cells to be donated to the muscle fiber
And we think the reason is each myonuclei can only control protein synthesis for a certain area
So the more myonuclei you can donate, the greater your potential is
This gives men a greater overall potential for lean mass
Up until puberty, males and females tend to have similar amounts of lean mass
He acknowledges this statement might get him in trouble
Compare it muscle memory‒ if you have trained before but stop training, you can gain back muscle much faster than it takes to build it This is true even for people who have stopped training for years They gain it back faster than it originally took to build it
This is true even for people who have stopped training for years
They gain it back faster than it originally took to build it

Animal study found muscle growth boosted by previous exposure to testosterone

There was a mouse study where they gave the animals testosterone and resistance trained them One group received testosterone and the other did not Both groups gained strength and lean mass, but the group getting testosterone gained more Then they had a washout period, for a long as it took both groups to get back to their original lean mass number They had both groups train again, without drugs in either group The group that originally had testosterone gained muscle significantly faster than the other group
One group received testosterone and the other did not
Both groups gained strength and lean mass, but the group getting testosterone gained more
Then they had a washout period, for a long as it took both groups to get back to their original lean mass number
They had both groups train again, without drugs in either group
The group that originally had testosterone gained muscle significantly faster than the other group

Our best understanding is it’s probably these myonuclei that got fused through that extra testosterone that confers that long-term benefit, and that’s how we think about max potential

Do we think that occurs only during a critical window of development, or does that happen if you’re 40 years old and you’re taking exogenous testosterone?

We don’t really know because there’s no data on this
Layne speculates that if you have a certain level of testosterone through puberty and now you’re an adult and you maintain that as your natural state (you don’t get too obese or too underweight) You’ve probably fused the amount of myonuclei that you’re going to fuse (at least from testosterone) Now if you start taking testosterone exogenously, you’ve ramped that up another notch And now you can fuse more myonuclei Anecdotally, this would make sense because drug use in bodybuilding has continued to go up, up, up We’re getting to the point where guys aren’t getting much bigger Last year, there was about half a dozen professional bodybuilders who died It’s getting to the point where they can’t go any higher with drugs and you’re seeing lean mass start to cap out
To compete in natural bodybuilding you have to test drug-free and take a polygraph that says you haven’t used drugs in 5 years Peter thinks this timeframe is interesting In theory they care because you may still confer a benefit 5 years later, even if you’ve been drug free A polygraph is not always accurate
As an aside, in powerlifting they don’t use a polygraph The way the water drug testing works is, once you enter the water drug testing pool (so you’ve qualified for some international competition), you could be drug tested at any time You have to use a whereabouts form to provide your whereabouts And if they select you to be drug tested and you don’t do it, you can get a strike against you and be out of competition for a certain period of time
Layne thinks there are cheaters but it’s not rampant There’s simply not that much money in it The most that has ever been on the line for him in competition is $3000
You’ve probably fused the amount of myonuclei that you’re going to fuse (at least from testosterone)
Now if you start taking testosterone exogenously, you’ve ramped that up another notch
And now you can fuse more myonuclei
Anecdotally, this would make sense because drug use in bodybuilding has continued to go up, up, up We’re getting to the point where guys aren’t getting much bigger Last year, there was about half a dozen professional bodybuilders who died It’s getting to the point where they can’t go any higher with drugs and you’re seeing lean mass start to cap out
We’re getting to the point where guys aren’t getting much bigger
Last year, there was about half a dozen professional bodybuilders who died
It’s getting to the point where they can’t go any higher with drugs and you’re seeing lean mass start to cap out
Peter thinks this timeframe is interesting
In theory they care because you may still confer a benefit 5 years later, even if you’ve been drug free
A polygraph is not always accurate
The way the water drug testing works is, once you enter the water drug testing pool (so you’ve qualified for some international competition), you could be drug tested at any time
You have to use a whereabouts form to provide your whereabouts
And if they select you to be drug tested and you don’t do it, you can get a strike against you and be out of competition for a certain period of time
There’s simply not that much money in it
The most that has ever been on the line for him in competition is $3000

How Layne is prepping for his upcoming IPF World Masters Powerlifting competition [44:00]

*After this recording, Layne finished in 1st place at the 2022 IPF World Masters Powerlifting Championships

Layne is training for worlds, this is his first major international meet in about 7 years
He mentioned yesterday that his back hurt and he really backed off
He also has some knee and hip pain

How do you think about injuries? How much longer do you want to be loading yourself to the level of basically putting cars on your back and lifting cars off the ground?

Candidly, Layne thinks if he wins Masters Worlds Powerlifting Competition, he’d probably give a hard thought to being done competing
Part of his problem is that he loves to train so much
He never really gave himself time to get pain free
As soon as he started feeling better, he would start pushing again
He has slowly gotten more intelligent because he used to think he was Superman For example yesterday when he was warming up on squats he was saying, “ All right, it’s not happening today. There’s no reason to try and force this ” Previously, his narrative would have been to power through it because that’s what it takes
For example yesterday when he was warming up on squats he was saying, “ All right, it’s not happening today. There’s no reason to try and force this ”
Previously, his narrative would have been to power through it because that’s what it takes

“ I think one of the most important things is knowing when to press the gas pedal and knowing when to back off a little bit. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. ”‒ Layne Norton

Layne is probably a little bit weird in that he would train for 3-4 hours a day because he just loves to train He loves the way it makes him feel He loves feeling strong The egocentric part of him probably loves to feel like a badass loading up 500-600 lbs in the gym
But he’s gotten to the point now where he’s like, “ All right, if it’s there today, we take it. If it’s not there, we take what’s there and then we live to fight another day ” because he’s had so many experiences where he’s tried to press on this
The way pain works, the more pain you have, the more pain you’re going to have because you just end up getting fixated and ruminating on it Research shows that the more you ruminate on the pain, the more you think about it, and the more times you trigger it, the worse it’s going to get
It’s this delicate balance between, I kind of know how far I can press something before I’m making it worse
The research also shows that you don’t want to completely just stop lifting because you detrain And then when you come back (even if you’re pain-free), you’re more likely to retrigger it because you’ve lost that adaptation
He loves the way it makes him feel
He loves feeling strong
The egocentric part of him probably loves to feel like a badass loading up 500-600 lbs in the gym
Research shows that the more you ruminate on the pain, the more you think about it, and the more times you trigger it, the worse it’s going to get
And then when you come back (even if you’re pain-free), you’re more likely to retrigger it because you’ve lost that adaptation

So when you have those pain triggers, you want to find, either a weight amount or a movement pattern or something similar to what you’re trying to do, but at low enough pain that you can start to build back

For example, yesterday he would have done some squats and deadlifts but couldn’t So today he did some leg press He’s still going to get some stimulation for his quads (the primary movers of the squat) He did a single-leg dumbbell RDL He was able to do those with no pain It’s not loading as much as he would like, but he’s still using his hamstrings and lower back, and he’s still gettin in some of that movement pattern He’s getting a training effect and some adaptation without further triggering that pain
So today he did some leg press
He’s still going to get some stimulation for his quads (the primary movers of the squat)
He did a single-leg dumbbell RDL
He was able to do those with no pain
It’s not loading as much as he would like, but he’s still using his hamstrings and lower back, and he’s still gettin in some of that movement pattern He’s getting a training effect and some adaptation without further triggering that pain
He’s getting a training effect and some adaptation without further triggering that pain

Layne’s workout today

He did some stuff he missed throughout the week Dumbbell pressing More single-leg RDLs Mobility work Not a lot of intensive stuff Ideally he would do squat, bench press, and deadlift because it’s completely specific to what he’s going to express on competition day, but those are very fatiguing movements
Anxiety is part of it too When you know how much you can do and how much you’ve done, you have anxiety about those movements because it’s like you’re being tested and compared to what you’ve previously done
Sometimes just creating a little bit of a variation of that movement where you can just let the weight happen and pick your RPE, and if it’s not a previous set weight, it doesn’t bother you
He’s started using a lot more variations to build that baseline level of strength
And then when it comes to the actual competition lifts, he’s mostly just focusing on doing heavy singles and building his volume through other areas
Dumbbell pressing
More single-leg RDLs
Mobility work
Not a lot of intensive stuff
Ideally he would do squat, bench press, and deadlift because it’s completely specific to what he’s going to express on competition day, but those are very fatiguing movements
When you know how much you can do and how much you’ve done, you have anxiety about those movements because it’s like you’re being tested and compared to what you’ve previously done

How many times a week will you do those heavy single workouts?

Once or twice, depending on how he feels

Peter’s experiment to take the psychology out of training

Take a powerlifter and their entire training cycle (6 months building up to a competition) and have them lift without knowing the weight on the bar
Their coach would tell them how many reps to do for every set or to what RPE to go until
It would be completely programmed, but take away the psychology and don’t let the athletes suffer from knowing, “ Oh, my god, I should be able to do this many reps ”
One day they might get down on a bar and the bar is going to be really light and they will be told, “ I think you’re going to get 10 reps here. Let’s see it. ” And they have no idea what % of their max it is
Layne knows a guy who completed his entire training cycle that way, Bryce Lewis One of the top lifters in the world Layne competed against him multiple times Bryce would have his girlfriend put trash bags over the weights She was also a competitive powerlifter
But Layne wants to know how much he’s lifting
He also has trust in his coach to know they’re not going to put something on the bar they don’t think he can do
And they have no idea what % of their max it is
One of the top lifters in the world
Layne competed against him multiple times
Bryce would have his girlfriend put trash bags over the weights She was also a competitive powerlifter
She was also a competitive powerlifter
Layne told Peter once that the difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding is in powerlifting, all of your pain is compressed into the gym In bodybuilding, most of your pain is actually out of the gym
In bodybuilding, most of your pain is actually out of the gym

Is there anything you do with your nutrition as you get closer to the meet?

Not really
Layne is sitting very close to the weight class he’s going to compete in so he doesn’t have to make a bunch of changes (he’s 208 lbs)
If he was at 215-217 lbs, then it gets to the point where a weight of 205 becomes a little bit untenable When he competes, it’s a 2 hour weigh-in (2 hours between weigh-in and lifting) So if you cut 10-15 lbs, you’re not going to be able to rehydrate and refuel quickly enough
There are organizations where you can weigh-in a day before, and one organization had 48 hour weigh-in In a way, this makes it more dangerous because people will really cut For example, Dan Green (a well-known, untested powerlifter) weighed-in at 220 and the next day was walking around at 255 or something It’s just incredible the amounts of weight these guys are cutting You see them with IVs and all that kind of stuff
For Layne, he can cut 2-3, maybe 4% of his body weight, but he doesn’t want to go much more than that because with 2 hours, you just don’t have time
When he competes, it’s a 2 hour weigh-in (2 hours between weigh-in and lifting)
So if you cut 10-15 lbs, you’re not going to be able to rehydrate and refuel quickly enough
In a way, this makes it more dangerous because people will really cut
For example, Dan Green (a well-known, untested powerlifter) weighed-in at 220 and the next day was walking around at 255 or something
It’s just incredible the amounts of weight these guys are cutting You see them with IVs and all that kind of stuff
You see them with IVs and all that kind of stuff

Are you taking 5 g of creatine daily?

Layne keeps taking creatine because he can modify sodium and fiber to get some water weight out on those last few days
He tries to be a little bit underweight the day before the meet so he can eat enough calories the day before and not feel like he has to shovel food down He will go pretty aggressive on Thursday and Friday for a Saturday meet On Saturday after weigh-in, he has 2 hours to get food down, but there’s also a lot of other stuff he has to do (like warm-up) He wants his brain to be free to think about the stuff he’s got to do and not thinking about nutrition or electrolytes
For the most part, he’s never really had issues with cramping
He’s never had issued with energy on the meet day
He thinks a lot of that is simply keeping himself pretty close to within striking distance
Your leverages can change based on your weight thickness The tightness of your belt can change All that stuff can make a difference in terms of the style of squat you do or how you feel
Layne adds, “ Just being able to train in a manner that’s going to be very similar to how I compete, I feel like is a little bit of an advantage for me, compared to people who have to cut quite a bit of weight ”
He will go pretty aggressive on Thursday and Friday for a Saturday meet
On Saturday after weigh-in, he has 2 hours to get food down, but there’s also a lot of other stuff he has to do (like warm-up) He wants his brain to be free to think about the stuff he’s got to do and not thinking about nutrition or electrolytes
He wants his brain to be free to think about the stuff he’s got to do and not thinking about nutrition or electrolytes
The tightness of your belt can change
All that stuff can make a difference in terms of the style of squat you do or how you feel

If you had to guess, what would your body fat be at weigh-in?

He calipers at around 8%, so by DXA it is probably 11-12% In his experience DXA is 3-4% higher than calipers
In his experience DXA is 3-4% higher than calipers

Creatine supplementation [54:30]

Creatine is one of the supplements Peter gets the most questions about
It’s also one of the supplements that he feels most confident telling patients this is a supplement worth taking It’s safe It probably has efficacy
It’s safe
It probably has efficacy

Is Layne okay with a little bit of weight gain because he’s going to pull in more water? Why is creatine so important?

Creatine is great for bodybuilding
Creatine is a high energy phosphate donor
In muscle, it exists as phosphocreatine
And when you take supplemental creatine, it’ll come into the muscle, and it’ll get a phosphate attached to it (creating phosphocreatine)
Originally, the only mechanism for enhancing performance that we thought of, was it’s role as a high energy phosphate donor

Benefits of creatine‒ people would perform better, people increase their lean body mass and strength, there’s even some cognitive benefits

Layne likes to tell people, “ I don’t even know why we’re having this conversation anymore ” It’s incredibly inexpensive for what you’re getting When he sees people talk about some of these other supplements and they’re not even taking creatine monohydrate, he thinks, “ You’re stepping over dollars to pick up pennies because this is just the lowest hanging fruit ”
It’s incredibly inexpensive for what you’re getting
When he sees people talk about some of these other supplements and they’re not even taking creatine monohydrate, he thinks, “ You’re stepping over dollars to pick up pennies because this is just the lowest hanging fruit ”

Even at your size and your demand, is there any benefit to taking more than 5 g a day?

Some people have postulated there might be
Layne hasn’t seen really clear evidence for it yet
You could argue that there’s really no downside to taking the extra
However, for some people, creatine can be a GI irritant

Action of creatine

We know creatine can act as a high energy phosphate donor
The energy currency of your cells is ATP So when you are exercising or just doing anything, in order to drive muscular contraction, your ATP donates a phosphate The liberation of that phosphate to form ADP and a free phosphate is energetically favorable and it helps drive these muscular contractions
Creatine (or phosphocreatine) can act as a high energy phosphate donor to regenerate ATP and allow you to perform better
Creatine is also a really powerful osmolite It pulls water into muscle tissue, which in and of itself may actually be anabolic
But regardless of the mechanism, we do know that when you take creatine, you see improvements in lean mass Some people will say, “ Well, that’s just water ” But muscle is 70% water
There’s research to show that even non-contractile mass (just water) may improve strength and contractibility We’re not sure exactly how But it could just be a that the volumization of the cell is a benefit Peter thinks conceptually a more hydrated cell may be better able to carry out its function So if the function of a myofibril is contractile, release, contract, release, and it has more water, it seems logical that it’s going to be better at clearing metabolic waste and recruiting fuel, which would at least be 2 things that would factor into its ability to do that
If you look at anything that improves hypertrophy, a big portion of it is water It’s not just all myofibril
So when you are exercising or just doing anything, in order to drive muscular contraction, your ATP donates a phosphate
The liberation of that phosphate to form ADP and a free phosphate is energetically favorable and it helps drive these muscular contractions
It pulls water into muscle tissue, which in and of itself may actually be anabolic
Some people will say, “ Well, that’s just water ”
But muscle is 70% water
We’re not sure exactly how
But it could just be a that the volumization of the cell is a benefit
Peter thinks conceptually a more hydrated cell may be better able to carry out its function So if the function of a myofibril is contractile, release, contract, release, and it has more water, it seems logical that it’s going to be better at clearing metabolic waste and recruiting fuel, which would at least be 2 things that would factor into its ability to do that
So if the function of a myofibril is contractile, release, contract, release, and it has more water, it seems logical that it’s going to be better at clearing metabolic waste and recruiting fuel, which would at least be 2 things that would factor into its ability to do that
It’s not just all myofibril

Layne thinks regardless of the mechanisms, it’s pretty clear that creatine works and it’s safe

They’ve done numerous randomized control trials, some of them being well over a year long

Concerns about creatine

You get an increase in creatinine , which can be a marker of renal function
Peter recalls a recent article in JAMA which said we should look at cystatin C instead of creatinine to assess renal function This is a PSA for other docs out there listening and other patients to say, “ Please look at my cystatin C as a way to estimate kidney function ” Every time you order labs on somebody and you see their creatinine, it’ll tell you what their estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) is Peter just ignores this and only looks at cystatin C
Layne adds that some other things can get a bit wonky from lifting weights, like liver enzymes He tells people these are markers If you have liver failure or kidney failure, it’s very, very likely you will have elevated liver enzymes and elevated creatinine But just because you have elevated liver enzymes or elevated creatinine, does not mean that you necessarily have damage to those tissues You have to disconnect those two
Layne feels that correlation versus causation is something that’s not taught very well in school because he sees some physicians get hung up on values that are not in the normal range Instead, just look at the person sitting in front of you who obviously works out, who is in good shape
If you’re concerned about your kidneys, then do a 24-hour urine collection or an ultrasound or whatever you have to do to verify that they’re safe, but Layne doesn’t worry about that kind of stuff
Some people claim creatine can cause hair loss, but Layne doesn’t think the data on that is very compelling There was a single study in 2009 that showed an increase in DHT from supplementing with creatine They reported that levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained increased 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance He’s never seen it replicated or followed-up
Layne adds, the interesting thing we know is that creatine doesn’t affect androgen levels So where is this increase in DHT coming from? No randomized control trials has shown that creatine actually causes changes to hair follicles or causes hair loss Maybe it does, but he would think that if that data existed, we would’ve seen it already
This is a PSA for other docs out there listening and other patients to say, “ Please look at my cystatin C as a way to estimate kidney function ”
Every time you order labs on somebody and you see their creatinine, it’ll tell you what their estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) is Peter just ignores this and only looks at cystatin C
Peter just ignores this and only looks at cystatin C
He tells people these are markers
If you have liver failure or kidney failure, it’s very, very likely you will have elevated liver enzymes and elevated creatinine
But just because you have elevated liver enzymes or elevated creatinine, does not mean that you necessarily have damage to those tissues You have to disconnect those two
You have to disconnect those two
Instead, just look at the person sitting in front of you who obviously works out, who is in good shape
There was a single study in 2009 that showed an increase in DHT from supplementing with creatine They reported that levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained increased 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance
He’s never seen it replicated or followed-up
They reported that levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained increased 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance
So where is this increase in DHT coming from?
No randomized control trials has shown that creatine actually causes changes to hair follicles or causes hair loss
Maybe it does, but he would think that if that data existed, we would’ve seen it already

Are there significant benefits from creatine supplementation on non-lifting days?

Such as a hard cardio day
We’re not talking about sprints where there would be a clear benefit for that type of high intensity effort

Layne would guess yes

A recent meta-analysis evaluated different ways of taking creatine and showed if you take 5 g a day, you get increases in lean mass, strength, and performance If you take more than 5 g per day, you also get increases But it’s hard to compare them directly because of the way they did the meta-analysis They looked at taking it on lifting days‒ they saw benefits They looked at taking it on non-lifting days‒ they also saw benefits
Layne thinks you can probably get away with just taking it on lifting days, but keep in mind the benefits of creatine come from accumulation So it’s key to saturate the muscle cell
When Peter was a kid reading Bro Science magazines, he remembers taking 30 g a day for a week or something crazy, then taking 5 g thereafter You would do that for a couple months Then come off it for a month Then repeat the cycle
Layne agrees, that was definitely a thing
Research does show if you load it, you will saturate the muscle cell faster
Layne tells people, “ There’s no solutions, there’s only trade-offs ” The trade-off with creatine loading is that a lot of people will get bad GI irritation (bloating, nausea, etc.) If you’re playing the long game, it doesn’t matter You’re talking about getting the results you want in one week as opposed to three weeks
If you take more than 5 g per day, you also get increases
But it’s hard to compare them directly because of the way they did the meta-analysis
They looked at taking it on lifting days‒ they saw benefits
They looked at taking it on non-lifting days‒ they also saw benefits
So it’s key to saturate the muscle cell
You would do that for a couple months
Then come off it for a month
Then repeat the cycle
The trade-off with creatine loading is that a lot of people will get bad GI irritation (bloating, nausea, etc.)
If you’re playing the long game, it doesn’t matter
You’re talking about getting the results you want in one week as opposed to three weeks

If you take 5 g a day, within a few weeks you’ll be saturated and you’ll be getting the same benefits

People will ask about taking it just on lifting days But it’s pretty cheap It’s easier to forget something when you only do it on certain days; sometimes it’s easier to make it part of the routine
People ask about the timing of when to take creatine There is very small bit of evidence that it might work better taking it after a workout But Layne tells people to just take it whenever you would regularly take it For him, he takes it first thing in the morning
As far as cycling on and off creatine There is evidence that you reduce your endogenous production of creatine when you’re on it, and that the creatine receptor on the muscle cell down-regulates a little bit The important thing to keep in mind is this doesn’t mean that your intracellular levels of creatine are falling Layne doesn’t think there is a reason to come off because they’ve shown that if you do come off, everything goes back to normal and you lose the benefit of the supplemental creatine within a month or so He thinks as long as intramuscular levels of creatine are not falling, there’s no benefit to coming off
People used to equate supplements with steroids, and you’re supposed to cycle steroids This is why they think we should cycle supplements But creatine is not hormonal, and it doesn’t have the same biofeedback loop so there’s no reason to cycle it
But it’s pretty cheap
It’s easier to forget something when you only do it on certain days; sometimes it’s easier to make it part of the routine
There is very small bit of evidence that it might work better taking it after a workout
But Layne tells people to just take it whenever you would regularly take it
For him, he takes it first thing in the morning
There is evidence that you reduce your endogenous production of creatine when you’re on it, and that the creatine receptor on the muscle cell down-regulates a little bit The important thing to keep in mind is this doesn’t mean that your intracellular levels of creatine are falling
Layne doesn’t think there is a reason to come off because they’ve shown that if you do come off, everything goes back to normal and you lose the benefit of the supplemental creatine within a month or so
He thinks as long as intramuscular levels of creatine are not falling, there’s no benefit to coming off
The important thing to keep in mind is this doesn’t mean that your intracellular levels of creatine are falling
This is why they think we should cycle supplements
But creatine is not hormonal, and it doesn’t have the same biofeedback loop so there’s no reason to cycle it

How important is rep speed and time under tension? [1:05:30]

One of Newton’s laws is force = mass x acceleration
If you’re going to press your dumbbells, one school of thought is to press them as quickly as possible Because the mass is fixed, so any speed of lifting is acceleration because you’re moving against gravity But the faster you can do it, the greater the force At some point, the weight becomes so heavy that you increase the effort more on the mass variable than on the acceleration variable So you can manipulate mass and acceleration to reach maximal force
An extreme example is a one-rep max But as Layne pointed out earlier, the more elite a powerlifter becomes, the slower it is So the emphasis is on mass, which is what you get scored on
Because the mass is fixed, so any speed of lifting is acceleration because you’re moving against gravity
But the faster you can do it, the greater the force
At some point, the weight becomes so heavy that you increase the effort more on the mass variable than on the acceleration variable So you can manipulate mass and acceleration to reach maximal force
So you can manipulate mass and acceleration to reach maximal force
But as Layne pointed out earlier, the more elite a powerlifter becomes, the slower it is So the emphasis is on mass, which is what you get scored on
So the emphasis is on mass, which is what you get scored on

How do we think about the mixing and matching of the mass versus the acceleration in an effort to optimize force? (on the concentric)

Of course, we also don’t want to go to maximum force every time because using a light weight you could move too quickly and injure yourself
Layne points out that strength is basically force Using the same force, you will move a heavy weight slower than a light weight
Layne’s coach Zach advises doing a heavy single or double followed by back-off sets are relatively light (RPE 4-5) but moving as quickly as possible
Using the same force, you will move a heavy weight slower than a light weight

Peter’s takeaway : On the heavy weights, you’re going to move slow because they have to, but to keep training strength, you want to move as quickly as possible as the weight decreases

Does this happen with Layne?

It’s hard to tell because he’s never actually done the calculation of force
He imagines there’s a sweet spot where too heavy probably has less force, but he’s not sure where that is
For hypertrophy , he thinks force is probably less important It’s more about having enough sufficiently hard sets, however you slice that
The idea of time under tension training was very popular In the initial research, one study had people doing curls, something around 6 second eccentric, 6 second concentric, to failure Another group did the normal cadence and match the number of reps in the first group They found the group doing slow eccentrics and concentrics gained more muscle The problem is, they were using 30% of their one-rep max for 10 reps going really slow If you were going at a normal pace, how many times could you do 30% of a one-rep max (30, 40, 50)? Layne’s not saying the study was bad, it simply answered the question it wanted to answer If you are going to compare them straight up, you need both groups to work to failure to achieve the same level of intensity When they do that, they see very little difference between slow lifting and fast lifting
A couple studies recently came out looking at fast eccentrics versus slow eccentrics and found there was a little bit better outcome with fast eccentrics with respect to muscle mass See the selected links section at the end
Peter notes, “ The only time I’ve ever done a fast eccentric is on my Exerfly machine because you’re forced to. It’s pulling you down so quickly that you’re screaming down and you’re coming to a stop. Outside of that it never occurred to me to do an eccentric quickly .” If he’s doing eccentric deadlifts, he’s trying to come down as slowly as possible, thinking that it is more time under tension
Layne thinks the time is part of the lift as well You don’t want to take it too extreme and dive bomb a squat when there’s no tension on the bar
It’s more about having enough sufficiently hard sets, however you slice that
In the initial research, one study had people doing curls, something around 6 second eccentric, 6 second concentric, to failure
Another group did the normal cadence and match the number of reps in the first group
They found the group doing slow eccentrics and concentrics gained more muscle
The problem is, they were using 30% of their one-rep max for 10 reps going really slow If you were going at a normal pace, how many times could you do 30% of a one-rep max (30, 40, 50)? Layne’s not saying the study was bad, it simply answered the question it wanted to answer
If you are going to compare them straight up, you need both groups to work to failure to achieve the same level of intensity When they do that, they see very little difference between slow lifting and fast lifting
If you were going at a normal pace, how many times could you do 30% of a one-rep max (30, 40, 50)?
Layne’s not saying the study was bad, it simply answered the question it wanted to answer
When they do that, they see very little difference between slow lifting and fast lifting
See the selected links section at the end
If he’s doing eccentric deadlifts, he’s trying to come down as slowly as possible, thinking that it is more time under tension
You don’t want to take it too extreme and dive bomb a squat when there’s no tension on the bar

Consider a bicep curl

Have 2 people curl the same weight, using the same speed on their concentric 1st person does a 2 sec concentric and 2 sec eccentric 2nd person does a 2 sec concentric and a 6 sec eccentric
1st person does a 2 sec concentric and 2 sec eccentric
2nd person does a 2 sec concentric and a 6 sec eccentric

Will the 1st person produce more hypertrophy?

Layne thinks it might be better
If you think about mechanical transduction and the force (the mechanical tension being applied to a muscle) when you’re getting to that point where the muscle is stopping and then having to come the other way, if it’s fast , that’s probably more tension at that specific point So we just don’t know enough about this stuff right now to really be able to say for sure
But there is benefit from slow movements for people who have pain or don’t want to use a heavy weight A lot of time pain can be tied to velocity, and if you slow down a movement, it won’t be as painful Layne has used tempo training pretty liberally in some of his training cycles to make it so he had to use less weight but still keep it difficult Now is this as good as his regular movement? Maybe not, but it’s better than doing nothing
So we just don’t know enough about this stuff right now to really be able to say for sure
A lot of time pain can be tied to velocity, and if you slow down a movement, it won’t be as painful
Layne has used tempo training pretty liberally in some of his training cycles to make it so he had to use less weight but still keep it difficult Now is this as good as his regular movement? Maybe not, but it’s better than doing nothing
Now is this as good as his regular movement?
Maybe not, but it’s better than doing nothing

“ Don’t let perfection be the enemy of progress. I do think that slow movements still have application for people. ”‒ Layne Norton

At the end of the day, the biggest determinant of hypertrophy is just doing enough number of hard sets, however that looks

Validity of super slow rep protocols, and the overall importance of doing any exercise [1:12:45]

A 30-minute, once-a-week workout

Peter has had a couple patients whose disdain for exercise is so great that the most he can negotiate them doing is one 20-30 minute workout per week doing the super slow protocol At a specific gym with specific types of equipment, they do 8-10 different machines and they only do 1 set and it’s to failure The sets are typically titrated to be somewhere between 90 and 105 seconds If you’re going more than that, the weight is too light If you’re less than that, the weight is too heavy They might do 4 simple upper body exercises and 4 lower So there might be a press, a pull, a bicep, a tricep, a leg press The reason he negotiates is because otherwise they will do nothing, and he can’t think of any better benefit in 30” once a week than this The challenge is, it’s’ really hard to go to failure And it’s hard to do it 8 consecutive times, which is what you asking a person to do in 30 minutes
At a specific gym with specific types of equipment, they do 8-10 different machines and they only do 1 set and it’s to failure
The sets are typically titrated to be somewhere between 90 and 105 seconds If you’re going more than that, the weight is too light If you’re less than that, the weight is too heavy
They might do 4 simple upper body exercises and 4 lower So there might be a press, a pull, a bicep, a tricep, a leg press
The reason he negotiates is because otherwise they will do nothing, and he can’t think of any better benefit in 30” once a week than this
The challenge is, it’s’ really hard to go to failure And it’s hard to do it 8 consecutive times, which is what you asking a person to do in 30 minutes
If you’re going more than that, the weight is too light
If you’re less than that, the weight is too heavy
So there might be a press, a pull, a bicep, a tricep, a leg press
And it’s hard to do it 8 consecutive times, which is what you asking a person to do in 30 minutes

What is your take on the super slow protocols?

Famous bodybuilders like Mike Mentzer have taken these protocols to the limits
Layne thinks, when it comes to hypertrophy, you have a lot of options
A friend of Layne’s ( Jeremy Loenneke ) posted a paper on social media looking at isometric contraction, and they were able to show some hypertrophy with a long isometric contraction Before we used to think that isometric doesn’t grow muscle Jeremy was on the podcast in 2021 Layne’s claim to fame is he introduced him to BFR (blood flow restriction) training
Before we used to think that isometric doesn’t grow muscle
Jeremy was on the podcast in 2021 Layne’s claim to fame is he introduced him to BFR (blood flow restriction) training
Layne’s claim to fame is he introduced him to BFR (blood flow restriction) training

Super slow is one tool in the toolkit to get some of the benefits from resistance training

The point is to get to the gym consistently
Are super slow protocols as good as compound movements with a free bar and training at a normal pace? Probably not, but it’s better than sitting at home and doing nothing
Probably not, but it’s better than sitting at home and doing nothing

Super slow and the physiology of hypertrophy

When it comes to the super slope, we still don’t fully understand how the process of muscle hypertrophy occurs
For hypertrophy we know that you need to progressively overload
But we still have a lot of gaps in our understanding
One of the things we think matters is metabolic stress , this idea that you’re accumulating metabolic byproducts inside the muscle as you work it out Hence BFR (blood flow restriction) There is some decent mechanistic data to support this in terms of hydrogen ion accumulation, how that may affect signaling and even calcium release into the sarcoplasm
Layne thinks when you’re dealing with that super slow protocol, you’re kind of pushing a little bit more on that metabolic stress as opposed to the mechanical tension portion of it But there still is mechanical tension
A lot of people think about mechanical tension just literally as weight on the bar What people don’t realize is mechanical tension is cumulative, because otherwise why wouldn’t we just load up a heavy single and just do that every time? That’s the most amount of mechanical tension you can get in terms of a set point in time So it seems pretty obvious that mechanical tension has to be a little bit cumulative throughout a set
If you’re doing super slow, you might have a light weight , but you also have a really long time that you’re under that light weight accumulating metabolic stress and mechanical tensions So it makes sense that you would have some of those benefits
Hence BFR (blood flow restriction)
There is some decent mechanistic data to support this in terms of hydrogen ion accumulation, how that may affect signaling and even calcium release into the sarcoplasm
But there still is mechanical tension
What people don’t realize is mechanical tension is cumulative, because otherwise why wouldn’t we just load up a heavy single and just do that every time? That’s the most amount of mechanical tension you can get in terms of a set point in time
So it seems pretty obvious that mechanical tension has to be a little bit cumulative throughout a set
That’s the most amount of mechanical tension you can get in terms of a set point in time
So it makes sense that you would have some of those benefits

Downsides to super slow

Layne thinks the bigger downside is you’re probably not going to get as strong doing that methodology as you are doing a little bit more normal pace And it may have a little bit less functionality than somebody who’s done kind of more traditional strength training
Peter’s bigger issue with super slow‒ “ I don’t think people really can go to failure ” It’s really difficult
It’s easier to do an exercise when you don’t have to go to failure, but you make up for in with volume
The other point is the reason why we exercise To live well Peter notes, “ I do worry that when we rob people of movements that require more than one plane, movements that require balance and some coordination, we’re not giving them the full benefit of the exercise, of the reason to exercise ”
And it may have a little bit less functionality than somebody who’s done kind of more traditional strength training
It’s really difficult
To live well
Peter notes, “ I do worry that when we rob people of movements that require more than one plane, movements that require balance and some coordination, we’re not giving them the full benefit of the exercise, of the reason to exercise ”

Any exercise is better than no exercise [1:18:15]

Layne thinks when a lot of people get into things, they have “ paralysis by analysis ” At a certain point, this is an excuse to do nothing Just go do something
When it comes to people who have been sedentary, Layne asks what they like doing
If the only outcome you’re going for is perfection, few people are going to be able to hit that A lot of the conversation boils down to this isn’t as good as this, but it’s still better than that Do we really need optimal to see a benefit?
At a certain point, this is an excuse to do nothing
Just go do something
A lot of the conversation boils down to this isn’t as good as this, but it’s still better than that
Do we really need optimal to see a benefit?

“ Do people really need optimal to get out of the state we’re in where so many people have type 2 diabetes and have obesity and are dying from heart disease and cancer? Honestly, if we can get 50% of the way there, we’ll probably see a huge benefit ”‒ Layne Norton

Peter adds, when you divide people into quartiles of fitness and strength, the improvement in benefit always comes from moving from the bottom quartile to the next one You’re going to achieve the most benefit when you go from being in the lowest 20% of the population to the second 20th percentile population
Layne agrees, “ One of the biggest failures of the fitness industry, quite honestly, is convincing people that they need to have a shredded six pack and be really muscular to be fit. No, you don’t have to. ”
He thinks most people who are lean probably don’t feel that fit When he was very lean for body building, he had no energy, no sex drive, thought about food all the time, and was miserable
The real sweet spot is probably where you got a little bit of fluff, you’re still relatively lean
You’re going to achieve the most benefit when you go from being in the lowest 20% of the population to the second 20th percentile population
When he was very lean for body building, he had no energy, no sex drive, thought about food all the time, and was miserable

Data on steps per day

The step data is pretty clear, there’s a huge inflection at about 8,000 steps per day You still get benefits by going up to 20,000 steps a day But the vast majority of benefits (the drop in mortality) is from going from 2,000 to 8,000 steps
Layne doesn’t think there is anything magic about steps, it’s just looking at people getting more active
One of the biggest failures of the fitness industry is the messaging that you need to look a certain way to be healthy The messaging should be, it’s a very low barrier to be healthy Even if you just get out and walk for 30 minutes a day, there is so much benefit from that compared to just sitting
Layne advises, “ Just doing anything in the gym ” People say machines are worthless, but they are great tools for applying tension to muscle A free barbell movement might be more functional, but if it’s the difference betweening training and not, then use the machines
You still get benefits by going up to 20,000 steps a day
But the vast majority of benefits (the drop in mortality) is from going from 2,000 to 8,000 steps
The messaging should be, it’s a very low barrier to be healthy Even if you just get out and walk for 30 minutes a day, there is so much benefit from that compared to just sitting
Even if you just get out and walk for 30 minutes a day, there is so much benefit from that compared to just sitting
People say machines are worthless, but they are great tools for applying tension to muscle
A free barbell movement might be more functional, but if it’s the difference betweening training and not, then use the machines
Peter doesn’t think most people listening to this (himself included) ever want to be 4-5% body fat
Layne agrees, “ You don’t, trust me ”
But someone who is 25% body fat would like to be 20% body fat

Navigating social media: advice for judging the quality of information from “experts” online [1:23:00]

How can a person make sense of the never ending sea of experts out there?

A couple years ago Layne had Alan Levinovitz on his podcast He’s a religious studies expert, he wrote a book on the fallacy of naturalism They talked about how hard it is for people to identify experts He said something really insightful, “ What you should look for in an expert is the exact opposite of what you probably think you should look for. If somebody sounds really confident, they’re probably not an expert. What you really want to look for is people who sound kind of doubtful and they say things like, “Probably, maybe, possibly.” ” And when you speak to true experts, if you ask them a question, the first thing they’ll do is ask you a question back (unless the questions is very contextual)
An expert needs to know the context to be able to answer correctly For example, if someone asks Layne about his thoughts on X, he’ll reply, “ Okay, well as it pertains to what? Hypertrophy or strength or fitness? ”
Credentials help If Layne sees somebody with a PhD in a certain subject, he’s probably going to give them a lot more leeway if they say something he disagrees with He will dig a little deeper to see what they said that But he’s seen some PhDs say some really dumb stuff (even from Harvard) Credentials are a nice thing, but they’re not foolproof
Peter adds that with Layne’s knowledge background, it’s a lot easier for him to look at someone’s Instagram account and quickly realize this person knows nothing
He’s a religious studies expert, he wrote a book on the fallacy of naturalism
They talked about how hard it is for people to identify experts
He said something really insightful, “ What you should look for in an expert is the exact opposite of what you probably think you should look for. If somebody sounds really confident, they’re probably not an expert. What you really want to look for is people who sound kind of doubtful and they say things like, “Probably, maybe, possibly.” ” And when you speak to true experts, if you ask them a question, the first thing they’ll do is ask you a question back (unless the questions is very contextual)
And when you speak to true experts, if you ask them a question, the first thing they’ll do is ask you a question back (unless the questions is very contextual)
For example, if someone asks Layne about his thoughts on X, he’ll reply, “ Okay, well as it pertains to what? Hypertrophy or strength or fitness? ”
If Layne sees somebody with a PhD in a certain subject, he’s probably going to give them a lot more leeway if they say something he disagrees with He will dig a little deeper to see what they said that
But he’s seen some PhDs say some really dumb stuff (even from Harvard)
Credentials are a nice thing, but they’re not foolproof
He will dig a little deeper to see what they said that

What are some criteria the average person (who doesn’t have the knowledge base) can use to disentangle this world?

Layne doesn’t think magic words exist
Part of his PhD program was a qualifying exam This was a 4 hour oral examination in front of 4 professors When he was prepping for this Dr. Layman (his advisor, who has also been on the podcast ) said, “ They’re going to push you in whatever subject they start out on until you don’t know, and you need to be able to say, “I don’t know” ” They did exactly that And at the end they said, “ You’re actually one of the best students we’ve had the last few years because you knew what you knew and you knew what you didn’t know ”
This was a 4 hour oral examination in front of 4 professors
When he was prepping for this Dr. Layman (his advisor, who has also been on the podcast ) said, “ They’re going to push you in whatever subject they start out on until you don’t know, and you need to be able to say, “I don’t know” ” They did exactly that And at the end they said, “ You’re actually one of the best students we’ve had the last few years because you knew what you knew and you knew what you didn’t know ”
They did exactly that
And at the end they said, “ You’re actually one of the best students we’ve had the last few years because you knew what you knew and you knew what you didn’t know ”

That division puts such an emphasis on not going outside your lane, not speaking about something, not speculating about something that you didn’t know and trying to pass it off like you did

A good metric is if a person is willing to know their scope and not feel the need to comment on every single thing

Advice to avoid (these people probably aren’t experts)

Also avoid people who use tips, tricks, hacks, 5 things to never do, 5 things to always do
Avoid people who use superlatives‒ the best, the worst (that’s not how experts talk)
Layne often says, “ There’s no solutions, there’s only trade-offs. There’s certain tools that make a lot more sense depending on somebody’s goals and where they’re at than compared to somebody else and vice versa .”

Navigating social media

This suggests that social media is negatively selecting, because the flare for showmanship, tips, tricks, and listicles get attention The algorithm likes things that get a lot of attention even if it isn’t warranted
Social media adds another layer of confusion to this difficult topic When he scrolls through Instagram, he’s amazed at how much it’s trying to push to him
Social media also acts as an information silo If you follow a few people and then accounts that are suggested to you, you’re not actually getting broader information Previously in the ‘80s, ‘90s, and 2000s when you would come across people with differences of opinion you could have a conversation with them It was not as confrontational Now we have whole generations of people who are not used to seeing opinions/ thoughts/beliefs different than their own because they’re in those information silos, and when they get exposed to something different, they just don’t know how to handle it
Layne has seen some really extreme responses to advice on nutrition He can’t name how many times he’s been called a shill for big meat, big dairy, artificial sweeteners, big sugar, etc. He just has a different opinion based on the data, but people think he must be a bad person
Peter notes, “ You’re an interesting person because your personality on Twitter and your personality on Instagram are quite different, and your personality in real life is totally different .”
The algorithm likes things that get a lot of attention even if it isn’t warranted
When he scrolls through Instagram, he’s amazed at how much it’s trying to push to him
If you follow a few people and then accounts that are suggested to you, you’re not actually getting broader information
Previously in the ‘80s, ‘90s, and 2000s when you would come across people with differences of opinion you could have a conversation with them It was not as confrontational Now we have whole generations of people who are not used to seeing opinions/ thoughts/beliefs different than their own because they’re in those information silos, and when they get exposed to something different, they just don’t know how to handle it
It was not as confrontational
Now we have whole generations of people who are not used to seeing opinions/ thoughts/beliefs different than their own because they’re in those information silos, and when they get exposed to something different, they just don’t know how to handle it
He can’t name how many times he’s been called a shill for big meat, big dairy, artificial sweeteners, big sugar, etc.
He just has a different opinion based on the data, but people think he must be a bad person

How has Layne’s personality evolved on Twitter and Instagram ?

Layne just made the decision that he’s not going to get drawn into it
He doesn’t really look at comments on Twitter anymore
Post and ghost
Peter sees enough negative comments to want to eviscerate them with words but 99.9% of the time he refrains from doing so
Layne thinks his styles isn’t for everybody
He has the most vitriol for people who post misinformation and clearly have a pattern of behavior where that is being monetized He has very little sympathy for those who prey on the desperation and ignorance of people This probably comes from his experience being bullied as a kid It also evolved out of his coaching experience, seeing many people come to him feeling broken because they tried so many of these things touted as a solution/ cure, and when it didn’t work for them, they thought something was wrong with them
He has very little sympathy for those who prey on the desperation and ignorance of people
This probably comes from his experience being bullied as a kid
It also evolved out of his coaching experience, seeing many people come to him feeling broken because they tried so many of these things touted as a solution/ cure, and when it didn’t work for them, they thought something was wrong with them

“ Nothing’s wrong with you. You haven’t been executing on principles that work .”‒ Layne Norton

Layne has tried to dial it back a bit because he thinks he took it too far at some point
Now he tries to use it to be funny and get some attention
His best Instagram posts are screenshots of his Twitter One of his top rated posts was when Mark Hyman said something and his response was, “ Stop making shit up ” Some people would be turned off by this Other people are tired of things being overly sanitized and wish somebody would say what they really feel
Layne has had so many academics reach out to him behind closed doors and say, “ I love your Twitter, I love just watching you break this stuff down ”
Layne doesn’t attack people but provides logic, data, and citations
He’s also trying to make it a funny and engaging conversation
Thomas DeLauer is a great example where Layne has done several videos debunking claims he made One day Thomas reached out to him and said, “ Hey man, I want you to know that I actually really respect you and you’ve actually made me change the way I think about some of this stuff. Would you want to come on my podcast? ” Layne did, and their conversation is on YouTube Layne respects anybody who can be self-reflective enough to go, “ You know what? I might have been wrong ”, or even wanting to get a different perspective on things
Layne is speaking at a low carb conference next year and the joke is, does he need to bring bodyguards?
Peter is not close enough to any of the dietary communities he knows He still gets very strongly associated with a low carb ideology, which is funny when you see how many carbohydrates he eats
One of his top rated posts was when Mark Hyman said something and his response was, “ Stop making shit up ” Some people would be turned off by this Other people are tired of things being overly sanitized and wish somebody would say what they really feel
Some people would be turned off by this
Other people are tired of things being overly sanitized and wish somebody would say what they really feel
One day Thomas reached out to him and said, “ Hey man, I want you to know that I actually really respect you and you’ve actually made me change the way I think about some of this stuff. Would you want to come on my podcast? ” Layne did, and their conversation is on YouTube
Layne respects anybody who can be self-reflective enough to go, “ You know what? I might have been wrong ”, or even wanting to get a different perspective on things
Layne did, and their conversation is on YouTube
He still gets very strongly associated with a low carb ideology, which is funny when you see how many carbohydrates he eats

Layne’s views on low-carb diets, the tribal nature of nutrition, and the importance of being able to change opinions [1:34:45]

Layne always tells people, “ How could I be anti-low-carb? If you go to our nutrition coaching app, Carbon Diet Coach, two of the six settings are low carbohydrate. There’s low carbohydrate and there’s ketogenic. ”
He thinks this is an example of the Tim Tebow effect, but it’s just polarization When Tim Tewbow was playing NFL football, Layne’s view was very few people were in the middle about Tim Tebow‒ you either love him or hate him But if you watch him, he’s not really that good, but he’s all right He has weird mechanics He’s more of a running back than a quarterback His completion was about 45% But many people were saying, “ He’s the Heisman, he’s going to the playoffs. He’s better than your quarterback ”
Layne thinks this happens with many different subjects
For example, Layne’s not a “car guy” but one time he took a picture of himself outside his new house with his car (a 2003 Alero) and posted it to social media This was his grad school car He never felt the need to get rid of it He got about 1500 comments, and people would ask him why he hates people who buy nice cars (he never said that) He was making a point about his ability to delay gratification and how it got him this new house
When Tim Tewbow was playing NFL football, Layne’s view was very few people were in the middle about Tim Tebow‒ you either love him or hate him
But if you watch him, he’s not really that good, but he’s all right He has weird mechanics He’s more of a running back than a quarterback His completion was about 45%
But many people were saying, “ He’s the Heisman, he’s going to the playoffs. He’s better than your quarterback ”
He has weird mechanics
He’s more of a running back than a quarterback
His completion was about 45%
This was his grad school car
He never felt the need to get rid of it
He got about 1500 comments, and people would ask him why he hates people who buy nice cars (he never said that)
He was making a point about his ability to delay gratification and how it got him this new house

Figure 2. Layne’s “controversial” photo of his new house . Image credit: Instagram

It’s the same thing with low carb, his messaging has consistently been to refute the claim that you can eat as many calories as you want as long as it’s low carb and not gain fat
Low carb does not appear to be better for fat loss than calorie protein equated diets that are not low carb

“ That means choose what you prefer because it’s not worse ”‒ Layne Norton

If you like low carb, then go ahead
He doesn’t enjoy low carb but many people do

One of the reasons people get so tribal about this is they find something that worked for them and then they retroactively try to find the evidence to show that it’s the best thing that there is

Which is more cult-like, nutrition or exercise?

Definitely nutrition

Is that because of the ubiquity of food in our lives and the fact that we all have almost equally a personal relationship with food, whereas not everybody exercises the same amount?

In America, we come from a Puritan background, and there’s a thinking that anything that is pleasurable must be bad for you You can’t have it, and you should feel bad about it
Layne has had people say horrible moral judgements because he posted a picture of him eating a bag of Skittles Nevermind that he just trained for 3 hours
You can’t have it, and you should feel bad about it
Nevermind that he just trained for 3 hours

The Puritan influence is one part of this, but the bigger part is people want to validate what they already believe to be true

When Layne meets new people and they don’t know anything about him, he is hesitant to tell them about his background in nutrition (PhD in nutrition) They’ll either clam up real quick and get self-conscious about what they’re eating Even though he orders fries Or he’ll get blitzkrieged with questions
If he said he was a theoretical astrophysicist, they might talk about space a little bit, but they’re probably not going to question his beliefs or opinions on string theory
But, because everyone eats and everyone knows something about their body (right or wrong), they have drawn certain conclusions about what they put in their body and what happens to their body This is why everybody has an opinion about nutrition It makes it really tough because people natively have certain beliefs, and we know how hard it is to change people’s beliefs
Layne remembers a study in politics, something about George W. Bush stopped or outlawed funding for stem cell research The reality was he just stopped federal funding; he didn’t outlaw it They showed people these facts and it didn’t matter, they just reinforced their preexisting belief They had data on this for both parties, Republican or Democrat
They’ll either clam up real quick and get self-conscious about what they’re eating Even though he orders fries
Or he’ll get blitzkrieged with questions
Even though he orders fries
This is why everybody has an opinion about nutrition
It makes it really tough because people natively have certain beliefs, and we know how hard it is to change people’s beliefs
The reality was he just stopped federal funding; he didn’t outlaw it
They showed people these facts and it didn’t matter, they just reinforced their preexisting belief
They had data on this for both parties, Republican or Democrat

“ I think it’s a people problem to be honest ”‒ Layne Norton

Layne recalls a benefit he gained very early on in grad school‒ Dr. Layman just absolutely dismantled so many of his beliefs But he did it in a way that wasn’t judgemental or made Layne feel bad
Layne tells people, “ Being wrong about something is a beautiful thing, because if I’m already right about everything, then I’m already doing everything the best I can and I can’t get better. If I’m wrong about something, that’s actually awesome because now I have something I can improve on .” Of course he likes being right But if he’s wrong, he doesn’t take much offense because it’s just data, there’s no ethical judgment He’s changed his mind about a myriad of things over the years
But he did it in a way that wasn’t judgemental or made Layne feel bad
Of course he likes being right
But if he’s wrong, he doesn’t take much offense because it’s just data, there’s no ethical judgment
He’s changed his mind about a myriad of things over the years

Where Layne has changed his views: LDL cholesterol, branched-chain amino acid supplementation, intermittent fasting, and more [1:42:00]

1 – LDL cholesterol

It used to be about HDL: LDL ratio and the particle size
Only in the last 4-5 years, after seeing enough Mendelian randomization studies did he realize the lifetime exposure to LDL is what is important
The mortality rate is linear with the lifetime exposure to LDL
Now he’s a little more conscious about the saturated fat he consumes, and he started taking a low dose of a statin
He never had super high LDL (150-125) Even if he reduces his saturated fat and increases fiber intake He probably eats 60-70 grams of fiber a day
He thinks people get that one twisted a little bit because they’ll hear things like, “ It doesn’t consider HDL. It doesn’t consider this .” You have to understand what an independent risk factor means It means that all things being equal, are you better off having higher HDL? Yeah, but HDL is more of a marker of metabolic health because we have some drug trials and Mendelian randomizations now where they modulate HDL and it doesn’t really seem to make a difference Whereas a lower LDL is almost always better for cardiovascular disease and mortality
Peter notes he should do a podcast on Mendelian randomization , it’s very powerful He doesn’t understand why it doesn’t get more attention You have to get into the weeds of genetic sorting and statistical methods He wrote in his book about it being one of the 5 pillars of evidence we should use to formulate insights with respect to anything
Layne adds that nutrition science becomes limited when you look at mortality and cardiovascular disease
The power of Mendelian randomization is you’re looking at a lifetime randomized control
People point to the Minnesota coronary study (and another Australian study ) to say that a randomized control trial comparing high saturated fat to low saturated fat found no difference But these studies were only for 2 years This is a long time for a clinical trial, but when you’re talking about a disease that is a lifetime exposure, you’re not going to have many incidences to pick up on in 2 years for people in their 40s Mendelian randomization allows you to get around that because you’re looking at people across their lifetimes
Layne doesn’t consider himself a lipid expert, but he compares lifetime exposure risk to investing If 2 people invest $10,000, and one person gets 8% and another 6% If you only look at the difference in a year or 2, it won’t be statistically different If you look out to 4 years, the 1st person is going to have a lot more Now think how much more that is going to be over a lifetime
Peter has done this exercise, it was initially in his book He compared investing $1,000 at 6% versus 4% At 5 and 10 years the difference wasn’t enormous But at 40, 50, and 60 years, it was staggering
Even if he reduces his saturated fat and increases fiber intake
He probably eats 60-70 grams of fiber a day
You have to understand what an independent risk factor means
It means that all things being equal, are you better off having higher HDL? Yeah, but HDL is more of a marker of metabolic health because we have some drug trials and Mendelian randomizations now where they modulate HDL and it doesn’t really seem to make a difference
Whereas a lower LDL is almost always better for cardiovascular disease and mortality
Yeah, but HDL is more of a marker of metabolic health because we have some drug trials and Mendelian randomizations now where they modulate HDL and it doesn’t really seem to make a difference
He doesn’t understand why it doesn’t get more attention
You have to get into the weeds of genetic sorting and statistical methods
He wrote in his book about it being one of the 5 pillars of evidence we should use to formulate insights with respect to anything
But these studies were only for 2 years This is a long time for a clinical trial, but when you’re talking about a disease that is a lifetime exposure, you’re not going to have many incidences to pick up on in 2 years for people in their 40s
Mendelian randomization allows you to get around that because you’re looking at people across their lifetimes
This is a long time for a clinical trial, but when you’re talking about a disease that is a lifetime exposure, you’re not going to have many incidences to pick up on in 2 years for people in their 40s
If 2 people invest $10,000, and one person gets 8% and another 6%
If you only look at the difference in a year or 2, it won’t be statistically different
If you look out to 4 years, the 1st person is going to have a lot more
Now think how much more that is going to be over a lifetime
He compared investing $1,000 at 6% versus 4%
At 5 and 10 years the difference wasn’t enormous
But at 40, 50, and 60 years, it was staggering

“ The cumulative effect of compounding over a lifetime is so nonlinear that I don’t think we are capable of understanding it. I don’t think we can ever cognitively realize it, until we literally just do the calculations and they’re staring us in the face. ”‒ Peter Attia

LDL is one thing Layne has changed his mind on
He still see’s LDL denialists How much more evidence do they need? Peter feels this is very dangerous
The mechanism is clear‒ LDL penetration of the endothelium
Animal models show linear dose independent effects
Many studies support this Mendelian randomization Clinical trials in humans Prospective cohort studies Genetic studies PCSK9-over and under expressors
How much more evidence do they need?
Peter feels this is very dangerous
Mendelian randomization
Clinical trials in humans
Prospective cohort studies
Genetic studies
PCSK9-over and under expressors

2 – Supplemental branched chain amino acids

Layne use to be a big advocate for supplemental branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) The first supplement company he started (5 years ago) sold a product with branched-amino acids in it This was basically taking 3 branched-chain amino acids as a workout supplement (as opposed to a workout recovery supplement)
His current supplement company ( Outwork Nutrition ) does not have a branched-chain amino acid product
He still thinks there may be a small benefit for delayed onset muscle soreness with branched-chain amino acids outside of regular protein, but based on the cost and negative impact on taste, it isn’t worth it Leucine tastes horrible Peter used to spike 5 g of leucine in his water during a workout and it tasted awful
The first supplement company he started (5 years ago) sold a product with branched-amino acids in it This was basically taking 3 branched-chain amino acids as a workout supplement (as opposed to a workout recovery supplement)
This was basically taking 3 branched-chain amino acids as a workout supplement (as opposed to a workout recovery supplement)
Leucine tastes horrible
Peter used to spike 5 g of leucine in his water during a workout and it tasted awful

Are there other amino acids that taste as bad a leucine?

Probably some of the sulfur ones ( cysteine or methionine ), but they’re non-polar so they don’t dissolve
Layne was sponsored by a company called Scivation for years that had a branched-amino acid product
BCAAs (branched-chain amino acids) are a big product, but most evidence based folks will say, “ It’s not better than protein ”
Moreover, research tends to suggest that whey protein is better than branched-chains, even when you equate the dose of BCAAs in the protein
Layne got to the point where he couldn’t hold the position on BCAAs and their effects on muscle supporting synthesis because evidence was just too strong

3 – Intermittent fasting [1:49:15]

Layne used to say he was worried about the catabolic effects of intermittent fasting (such as 16/8) when combined with resistance training and sufficient total protein
Layne thinks the caveat in these studies should be that they train within their feeding window
Grant Tinsley has some good studies on this There doesn’t appear to be statistical differences in lean mass between people who do 16/8 intermittent fasting versus people who eat continuously
Layne used to advocate eating protein every 4 hours to improve lean mass Maybe if you plot it out over 30 years it would make a difference in how much lean mass you’re getting
If you’re a bodybuilder and want to squeeze out every last ounce of muscle you can get, he still thinks any form of intermittent fasting isn’t optimal
But the average person can get plenty big and strong doing 16/8 intermittent fasting
There doesn’t appear to be statistical differences in lean mass between people who do 16/8 intermittent fasting versus people who eat continuously
Maybe if you plot it out over 30 years it would make a difference in how much lean mass you’re getting

Peter’s experience with intermittent fasting with his patients

Peter has gone the other way on this one
He used to be a big proponent

But what he was seeing clinically, anecdotally, over and over again on so many patients who he had decks of data on, is a real deterioration of body composition

He knows they were falling behind on protein
The question became one of efficacy versus effectiveness If this were done under controlled settings where the total protein intake was identical that would be one thing Instead, the effectiveness of this in practice led to reduced protein intake
Peter still uses intermittent fasting in patients as one of the 3 big levers of energy restriction
If this were done under controlled settings where the total protein intake was identical that would be one thing
Instead, the effectiveness of this in practice led to reduced protein intake

But he has a big red caution button all over it to make sure patients patients are not compromising protein

Nuances of intermittent fasting

Layne thinks people get too hung up on the fasting part of intermittent fasting It’s a tool to reduce energy intake People ask, “Is it going to break the fast if I have coffee? Chew gum? Have a protein shake? ”
Peter used to really think about the details of that
He thinks autophagy is an incredibly important part of our ability to regenerate, and you’re not getting any meaningful amount of it in 16 hours
So now he tells patients to have a protein shake outside of that feeding window
It’s a tool to reduce energy intake
People ask, “Is it going to break the fast if I have coffee? Chew gum? Have a protein shake? ”

The point of intermittent fasting is energy restriction, so what’s an extra 200 calories outside of your feeding window?

Layne points out that some of the effects of high protein diets are not dissimilar from fasting in terms of liver metabolism
He’s concerned with having carbohydrates and fats during the fasting period (not protein)
Layne and Dr. Laymen think breakfast is probably the most important meal for protein dosing of the day because you’re coming off a significant period of fasting So if you extend that with intermittent fasting, what does that mean long term?
So if you extend that with intermittent fasting, what does that mean long term?

Protein intake

Peter has taken to bribing his 14 year old daughter to get her to eat a minimum of 30 g of protein before she goes to school in the morning
Layne thinks it’s interesting how that dogmatism plays out
You have the same thing with low carb People so worried about getting any carbs, meanwhile, they’re dumping oil on their salad, putting butter in their coffee, and eating loads of bacon or they’re eating keto ice cream because it’s not spiking their blood sugar Have you looked at the keto ice cream? It’s actually more calories
People so worried about getting any carbs, meanwhile, they’re dumping oil on their salad, putting butter in their coffee, and eating loads of bacon or they’re eating keto ice cream because it’s not spiking their blood sugar
Have you looked at the keto ice cream? It’s actually more calories

“ We’re missing the entire point here. The same thing goes for flexible dieting. I had people who were trying to hack the system of how can I eat as much junk food as I want? ”‒ Layne Norton

Layne’s point is you can take anything too far
We know that fiber is really important There are some folks who are anti-fiber (carnivores)
Layne laughs because he was in a debate one time with a carnivore advocate and his research was sponsored by the Egg Nutrition Center, the National Dairy Council, and the National Cattleman’s Beef Association
Layne adds, “ The fact that I’m sitting here defending plants, is actually mind blowing to me ” If anything, it should increase your trust in what he’s saying because he is a fan of high quality animal protein
There are some folks who are anti-fiber (carnivores)
If anything, it should increase your trust in what he’s saying because he is a fan of high quality animal protein

The carnivore diet, elimination diets, and fruits and vegetables [1:55:15]

What is the argument for the carnivore diet?

It’s a diet where you only eat meat
Layne has heard some versions where people eat honey and fruits
The reason is basically anecdotal‒ people lose weight With any strict dietary restriction you are ultimately going to reduce intake Really, how much meat can you eat?
The justification is that people still go to the bathroom just fine
Some people have said it helped clear up autoimmune issues That’s hard to quantify
Some people say it lowered their inflammation and GI problems A lot of people get mixed up and equate getting bloated or GI dysfunction with inflammation You might have some localized inflammation, but based on what we know about IBS It’s not the same thing as getting your CRP or IL-6 measured (that’s inflammation)
With any strict dietary restriction you are ultimately going to reduce intake
Really, how much meat can you eat?
That’s hard to quantify
A lot of people get mixed up and equate getting bloated or GI dysfunction with inflammation You might have some localized inflammation, but based on what we know about IBS It’s not the same thing as getting your CRP or IL-6 measured (that’s inflammation)
You might have some localized inflammation, but based on what we know about IBS
It’s not the same thing as getting your CRP or IL-6 measured (that’s inflammation)

A carnivore diet is an elimination diet

Let’s assume that on the carnivore diet your biomarkers of inflammation improved, and symptoms improved
How many foods do you think an average person eats in a given week? In the 10s, maybe 100
If you eliminate all but 1 of them, it’s not a good experiment because you haven’t really learned a lot You’ve learned that something in those 99, might have been the problem
Layne thinks that a lot of people who are getting benefits are basically doing an elimination diet
Most people don’t have sensitivities to meat
Many people, just not being in tune with their body, probably have IBS, FODMAP sensitivities where they’re fermenting a lot of fructans, oligosaccharides, those sorts of things, Even though it’s a healthy thing, bacteria getting fuel from fiber is a healthy thing If it’s causing pain, they’re equating that with being something negative Obviously, we don’t want anybody to be in pain
Peter thinks a lot of people have wheat sensitivities that are not full-on gluten sensitivities That don’t rise to the level of Celiac disease
Layne thinks once people have eliminated all plants from their diet, the next step should be adding things back in 1 by 1 to figure out what is actually causing problems
There is a negative perception of eating animal protein in terms of longevity and health
Most people who eat high amounts of animal protein aren’t eating lean cuts of sirloin and chicken breast Instead they’re eating high amounts of processed meat and less amounts of fruits and vegetables
A classic study from Maximova in 2020 looked at different serving amounts of fruits and vegetables and also meats Going from high to low vegetable intake there was a liner effect on the incidence of cancer Eating more meat also shows a linear effect on the incidence of cancer when you don’t correct for fruit and vegetable intake In those who had the highest intake of meat along with the highest intake of fruits and vegetables there was no effect on cancer incidence The risk was the same as the group who at low amounts of meat and high amounts of fruits and vegetables
In the 10s, maybe 100
You’ve learned that something in those 99, might have been the problem
Even though it’s a healthy thing, bacteria getting fuel from fiber is a healthy thing
If it’s causing pain, they’re equating that with being something negative Obviously, we don’t want anybody to be in pain
Obviously, we don’t want anybody to be in pain
That don’t rise to the level of Celiac disease
Instead they’re eating high amounts of processed meat and less amounts of fruits and vegetables
Going from high to low vegetable intake there was a liner effect on the incidence of cancer
Eating more meat also shows a linear effect on the incidence of cancer when you don’t correct for fruit and vegetable intake
In those who had the highest intake of meat along with the highest intake of fruits and vegetables there was no effect on cancer incidence The risk was the same as the group who at low amounts of meat and high amounts of fruits and vegetables
The risk was the same as the group who at low amounts of meat and high amounts of fruits and vegetables

Layne’s takeaway : “ That suggests it’s less about the meat you’re eating and what you’re eating it instead of… I like high quality protein… but for God’s sake, have some fruits and vegetables with it because it’s what’s going to mitigate your risk. ”

When we tell people to eat more or less of something, usually a replacement happens

Fiber: Layne’s approach to fiber intake, sources of fiber, benefits, and more [2:00:15]

How much fiber are you eating a day, and what are your main sources?

Around 60 g total (soluble + insoluble)
Layne eats a lot of riced cauliflower, broccoli, beans, apples
There’s about 3-4 g fiber in an apple
Berries tend to be really fiber dense compared to apples
Bananas have relatively low fiber, but even the higher sugar, lower fiber fruits are still associated with good health outcomes
He loves popcorn; it’s high fiber You could eat more corn than popcorn; popcorn is very filling Layne started eating popcorn during body building competitions Air popped popcorn with a little cinnamon, Splenda, and butter spray For 50 g of carbohydrate, it will take you 20-30 minutes to eat it and it helped him controlhis hunger You get 6-10 g fiber depending on the brand It’s probably not as healthy as some fruits and vegetables, but as far as snacks go, i’t pretty good and very filling
Layne was in a debate with Paul Saladino (a big carnivore advocate), they were talking about fiber and Paul said, “ Well, this stuff with fiber, it’s just healthy user bias ” People who eat more fiber have other health promoting behaviors Healthy user bias is a real thing, in terms of cohort studies, cross-sectional data, and observational data But when you’re dealing with a healthy user bias, typically the data’s not consistent One study will say one thing, one study might have no effect, one study might say a different thing You see that with meat longevity You don’t see it with exercise, smoking studies (in the opposite direction), or fiber
Layne was just looking at a meta-analysis earlier, that controlled for confounding variables, and they reported that animal protein was not associated with increased mortality
Fiber has a very consistent effect across all meta-analysis Even without a 10 year RCT of giving people enough fiber versus not and tracking health outcomes, Layne feels very comfortable saying that fiber helps reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer
The RDA for fiber is 20-30 g (or 14 g per 1,000 calories of food)
Layne tells people to shoot for 15 g per 1000 calories He would love to go for more, but at some point it becomes intractable to get that much fiber at low calories
You could eat more corn than popcorn; popcorn is very filling
Layne started eating popcorn during body building competitions Air popped popcorn with a little cinnamon, Splenda, and butter spray For 50 g of carbohydrate, it will take you 20-30 minutes to eat it and it helped him controlhis hunger
You get 6-10 g fiber depending on the brand
It’s probably not as healthy as some fruits and vegetables, but as far as snacks go, i’t pretty good and very filling
Air popped popcorn with a little cinnamon, Splenda, and butter spray
For 50 g of carbohydrate, it will take you 20-30 minutes to eat it and it helped him controlhis hunger
People who eat more fiber have other health promoting behaviors
Healthy user bias is a real thing, in terms of cohort studies, cross-sectional data, and observational data
But when you’re dealing with a healthy user bias, typically the data’s not consistent One study will say one thing, one study might have no effect, one study might say a different thing
You see that with meat longevity You don’t see it with exercise, smoking studies (in the opposite direction), or fiber
One study will say one thing, one study might have no effect, one study might say a different thing
You don’t see it with exercise, smoking studies (in the opposite direction), or fiber
Even without a 10 year RCT of giving people enough fiber versus not and tracking health outcomes, Layne feels very comfortable saying that fiber helps reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer
He would love to go for more, but at some point it becomes intractable to get that much fiber at low calories

What about getting fiber from bars and things?

Layne is eating real food to get fiber
Peter has heard things that suggest the fiber in a processed bar is not contributing to health the way fiber in food such as cauliflower or beans does
Layne tries not to fall into the naturalistic fallacy He cringes when he cringes processed and unprocessed because everything is processed now
Peter doesn’t meant to say that processing is bad, but is thinking about this through the lens of destruction of the actual kernel and what that does at the GLP-1 level
Layne replies, “ Mother nature’s kitchen is probably better than a fiber bar that’s some indigestible form of glucose or some less digestible form of starchy carbohydrate ” But, is a processed bar better than nothing? Probably He also thinks that eating 3 protein bars that have 14 grams of fiber is probably not equivalent to getting 6-8 servings of fruits and vegetables
He cringes when he cringes processed and unprocessed because everything is processed now
But, is a processed bar better than nothing? Probably
He also thinks that eating 3 protein bars that have 14 grams of fiber is probably not equivalent to getting 6-8 servings of fruits and vegetables

Confusion around omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids and the Minnesota Coronary Experiment [2:05:00]

Peter notes, “ There’s nothing in nutrition that I’m more confused about than the role of Omega-6 PUFAs ”

The Minnesota coronary experiment

The Minnesota coronary experiment (mentioned earlier) was very unique and probably will never be replicated It would never get approved now
Peter is still trying to track down Chris Ramsden who wrote the paper on all that data that was never published in Franz’s first study
This study was carried out in a mental facility
What makes it special is that the subjects were fed every meal It was not a free living study, though it had free living duration
The average duration was just over 2 years The study was conducted over 4.5 years 1568 participants were on the diet for over 2 years
The diet had a big reduction in saturated fat Saturated fat was reduced by 50%, from 18.5% of calories to 9.2% Corn oil was used to replace cooking oil and used in many foods Corn oil margarine was used in place of butter
The hypothesis being tested was that the group on the lower saturated fat diet should have fewer cardiovascular events
This was at the time (1961) when Ancel Keys proposed that saturated fat was the driver of blood lipids (the lipid heart hypothesis)
This was a large study, over 500 subjects The original publication stated 1568 participants were on the diet for over 2 years Ramsden’s paper reports 2355 participants
The participants in this study were old which meant you were going to see events
Peter notes, “ You couldn’t do a 2-year study in 40 year olds. You’d see no events in anybody. ”
The results came out in 1973 but there weren’t published until 1989 (16 years later) When asked about this Franz says, “ We didn’t like the way it turned out ”
A guy named Chris Ramsden who is still at the NIH come along 5 years ago and finds a bunch of unpublished data and republishes it in BMJ
It would never get approved now
It was not a free living study, though it had free living duration
The study was conducted over 4.5 years
1568 participants were on the diet for over 2 years
Saturated fat was reduced by 50%, from 18.5% of calories to 9.2%
Corn oil was used to replace cooking oil and used in many foods
Corn oil margarine was used in place of butter
The original publication stated 1568 participants were on the diet for over 2 years
Ramsden’s paper reports 2355 participants
When asked about this Franz says, “ We didn’t like the way it turned out ”

Peter’s interpretation of this study 10 years ago was that saturated fats are not causing heart disease, but now his interpretation is that the study wasn’t long enough to see a difference

In this study they measured total cholesterol levels but didn’t fractionate cholesterol So they couldn’t measure LDL or HDL
Still, there was a 30 mg/dL reduction in total cholesterol in the low saturated fat group The majority of that 30 mg/dL was probably LDL-cholesterol if they could have measured it
So they couldn’t measure LDL or HDL
The majority of that 30 mg/dL was probably LDL-cholesterol if they could have measured it

Peter’s interpretation now is that a 2-year intervention is not long enough

If you put a bunch of people on a statin for 2 years, you probably wouldn’t see a difference
Now, the PCSK9 trials suggest otherwise The ODYSSEY and FOURIER trials in 2015 tested the most potent lipid lowering drugs and did show a benefit in 2.5-3 years, but they were crushing LDL
The ODYSSEY and FOURIER trials in 2015 tested the most potent lipid lowering drugs and did show a benefit in 2.5-3 years, but they were crushing LDL

The modifications you can make to cholesterol from diet (in some cases) can be quite small compared to what you can get with pharmaceutical interventions

For an extreme example, if somebody went on a diet of zero saturated fat, 12% total fat, calorie restriction‒ they could probably cut their cholesterol in half, but they’d be doing a bunch of harm along the way
On the other end of the spectrum, some people in the low-carb community are bragging about LDL-cholesterol levels in the 500s
It’s much easier to raise your LDL-cholesterol with diet It’s an unbounded problem above and a bounded problem below
Ramsden’s data suggests that people in the PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acid) group had worse outcomes This throws Peter for a loop and is why he wants to have Chris Ramsden on the podcast If the details of that study are consistent, it would be the most damning evidence against N6 PUFAs in terms of lowering lipids but raising cardiac events
There’s a precedent for this, a drug ( triparanol ) approved in the 60s lowered cholesterol but increased cardiovascular events (it was withdrawn) The drug was believed to prevent the conversion of desmosterol to cholesterol (the final step of cholesterol synthesis in 1 of 2 pathways) Perhaps desmosterol acted as bad or worse than cholesterol, in terms of the oxidative process
Today cholesterol drugs are only approved on the basis of outcomes (like lower cardiac events), but then it was approved on the basis of cholesterol lowering
It’s an unbounded problem above and a bounded problem below
This throws Peter for a loop and is why he wants to have Chris Ramsden on the podcast
If the details of that study are consistent, it would be the most damning evidence against N6 PUFAs in terms of lowering lipids but raising cardiac events
The drug was believed to prevent the conversion of desmosterol to cholesterol (the final step of cholesterol synthesis in 1 of 2 pathways)
Perhaps desmosterol acted as bad or worse than cholesterol, in terms of the oxidative process

The point is, there is a precedent for lowering cholesterol and worsening events

Ramsden proposes a series of mechanisms by which that might be the case with at least this polyunsaturated fat
Conversely, there is a lot of epidemiology that says the opposite, that whenever you substitute saturated for polyunsaturated fats, things get better
Nobody’s disputing MUFA (monounsaturated fatty acids) The data seems unambiguously clear that MUFA is the best of the 3 fats, both epidemiologically and experimentally
The data seems unambiguously clear that MUFA is the best of the 3 fats, both epidemiologically and experimentally

Layne’s views on fats in the diet [2:13:00]

How does Layne think about the distribution of fats in the diet?

Layne has seen some epidemiology that showed PUFAs were lowering events more They are more favorable than SFA
Studies that have swayed his opinion were those that had other contextual data where their findings made sense
One study came out and concluded they don’t know how to reconcile their findings because the mechanisms proposed for Omega-6 fats are they will increase inflammation because their double bonds can be oxidized The oxidation causes inflammation
But if you look at the hard outcome data and RCTs where they give oleic or alpha linoleic acid, you don’t see inflammation go up if they’re not increasing total calories In particular, if they replace it for saturated fat, you sometimes see inflammation go down
They are more favorable than SFA
The oxidation causes inflammation
In particular, if they replace it for saturated fat, you sometimes see inflammation go down

“ So I don’t feel bad saying, I just have no clue ”‒ Peter Attia

Layne looks at the weight of the evidence and couples it with mechanistic evidence and human outcome mechanisms
Maybe we can’t do a 2 year randomized control trial, but 12 weeks is enough time to see differences in inflammation
It’s been a long time since Peter looked through the BMJ paper (Minnesota coronary experiment) , but he recalls a figure that walks through the proposed mechanisms (shown below)

Figure 3. Potential consequences of high linoleic acid intake . Image credit: BMJ 2016

What have we added to our diet in the last 20-30 years?

When you think of cutting something out, you replace it with other things

Layne thinks the biggest contribution to added calories in the diet in the last 20-30 years is oils

“ The big demon right now is seed oils ”‒ Layne Norton

The anti-seed oil crowd is just so vitriolic and so nuts that Layne wonders if he wants to wade into this conversation They’re definitely more toward the low-carb carnivore
There’s a lot of people in the low carb community who’ve tried to abdicate saturated fat They will say that people who have higher LDL-cholesterol live longer Layne thinks that’s probably because they’re actually eating enough food When you’re elderly, the problem is wasting not obesity
They’re definitely more toward the low-carb carnivore
They will say that people who have higher LDL-cholesterol live longer Layne thinks that’s probably because they’re actually eating enough food When you’re elderly, the problem is wasting not obesity
Layne thinks that’s probably because they’re actually eating enough food
When you’re elderly, the problem is wasting not obesity

As people wanted to make saturated fat a “good guy,” seed oils became the “bad guy”

If you look at the top-level stuff, it fits a pretty good story We never ate seed oils 120 years ago Today they’re a huge part of our fat calories and look at all the things that are wrong with the world today
It’s the same story for sugar We ate this much sugar in 1900 and this much in 2000 Look what got worse It’s really easy to make sugar a boogeyman
We never ate seed oils 120 years ago
Today they’re a huge part of our fat calories and look at all the things that are wrong with the world today
We ate this much sugar in 1900 and this much in 2000
Look what got worse
It’s really easy to make sugar a boogeyman

Layne’s takeaway : I think when you look through the data and try to be unbiased about it, the continuous boogeyman is just energy toxicity

Problems arise when you’re dealing with extra energy
People will say they did the food guide pyramid, but they didn’t really do it because it also said exercise and reduce your calorie consumption They added in more carbohydrates, but didn’t really decrease their fat intake
They added in more carbohydrates, but didn’t really decrease their fat intake

So we added more calories and had more of these problems

Flexible dieting, calorie tracking, and the benefits of tracking what you eat to understand your baseline [2:18:00]

Peter finds it impossible to estimate what he eats; there’s no way he could tell you within 500 calories what he’s eaten in a day
He thinks in the low fat craze, we probably underestimated how much fat didn’t go down and how much low fat stuff went up
Density in food calories comes from fat Fat will take a dish from 500 calories to 1500 calories
Fat will take a dish from 500 calories to 1500 calories

Can Layne look at a brownie or sandwich and know how many calories he’s getting?

He’s done enough food logging in his life
For some people, that’s not a sustainable way to live
The bigger picture is, “ If you want to lose fat or control body weight, you have to practice some form of restriction ”

You can pick the form of restriction you want

1 – Restrict calories Restrict portion size
2 – Restrict time
3 – Restrict a certain macronutrient group
4 – Only eat minimally processed food
For Layne, the easiest thing is to eat what he wants within reason (control the amount) If you do that, you’re going to have to track calories or macros or whatever
Restrict portion size
If you do that, you’re going to have to track calories or macros or whatever

What’s interesting is none of these forms of restriction seem to be better than another in terms of adherence at a population level

“ Choose the form of restriction that feels the least restrictive for you ”‒ Layne Norton

Other forms of restriction Layne has tried

He tried clean eating back in the early 2000s This focused on minimally processed foods and high fiber
He kind of started binge eating then
The psychology of binge eating is really interesting Layne had Professor Jake Linardon on his podcast a while back (an expert in eating disorders), and he said 2 theres are essential for an eating disorder to emerge 1 – Some sort of poor body image perception 2 – Hard food rules
This focused on minimally processed foods and high fiber
Layne had Professor Jake Linardon on his podcast a while back (an expert in eating disorders), and he said 2 theres are essential for an eating disorder to emerge
1 – Some sort of poor body image perception
2 – Hard food rules

So when you create hard food rules, it just does a weird thing in your mind

Binging just means overeating, but Layne doesn’t know the actual criteria It’s periods of intense food consumption followed by a lot of guilt We’re not talking about having an extra cookie We’re talking about eating a whole box of Oreos
For Layne the rules for what was clean to eat seemed very arbitrary The Bodybuilding Magazine said he couldn’t have sugar or this or that
As he started to avoid these “bad foods” he actually started eating more of them because when he was exposed to them he wasn’t able to moderate it “ I would just end up eating way more than I had intended to or even felt hungry for ” He had the mindset that if it is bad, he’s not going to eat it again It became, “ This is my last time eating this cause I’m going to be really serious after this. So since I’ve already broken the seal, might as well just go all way .”
He realized it was ineffective towards his goals
He wondered if the problem was having pizza or eating an entire large pizza, and that’s when he decided to try portion control
It’s periods of intense food consumption followed by a lot of guilt
We’re not talking about having an extra cookie
We’re talking about eating a whole box of Oreos
The Bodybuilding Magazine said he couldn’t have sugar or this or that
“ I would just end up eating way more than I had intended to or even felt hungry for ”
He had the mindset that if it is bad, he’s not going to eat it again
It became, “ This is my last time eating this cause I’m going to be really serious after this. So since I’ve already broken the seal, might as well just go all way .”

“ I was able to modulate my body composition by eating foods I still enjoyed but controlling portion size ”‒ Layne Norton

Flexible dieting and tracking macros

Layne began practices flexible dieting which involves tracking macros, kind of treating it like a budget
About 7-8 years ago he was going to debate a bodybuilding coach about clean eating versus flexible dieting In his opening argument Layne looked on the guy’s Facebook page and compared the weekly calories of his meals to the calories Layne ate each week (including junk food) His calories were higher Layne’s point was this guy was telling him it was really bad to have a cookie, but if he binged on it 1 day a week, that’s okay This seemed like an odd metric The calorie comparison is very different
In his opening argument Layne looked on the guy’s Facebook page and compared the weekly calories of his meals to the calories Layne ate each week (including junk food) His calories were higher
Layne’s point was this guy was telling him it was really bad to have a cookie, but if he binged on it 1 day a week, that’s okay This seemed like an odd metric The calorie comparison is very different
His calories were higher
This seemed like an odd metric
The calorie comparison is very different

What fraction of the population would have the best physical and psychological response to calorie restriction as a tool or flexible dieting?

There’s no data on this, but from Layne’s experience with clients, some people will be resistant at first then really enjoy it later
It all boils down to how willing somebody is to make this part of their lifestyles
All forms of restriction have downsides If you’re on a ketogenic diet and you go out to eat, there’s a lot you can’t eat, but you can usually make do If you’re on time restricted feeding you can join your friends for a breakfast out With flexible dieting you have to keep track of what you eat
Data on food reporting consistently show people under report by 50% People take this stat as an affront, “ I’m not a liar ” Instead people are just really horrible estimators of what they eat
Layne adds, “ If you ever want to be depressed, go weigh-out of serving of cereal, or a serving of ice cream, or a serving of peanut butter ” A serving of ice cream is not a bowl of ice cream A bowl of ice cream is probably 3 servings, so it makes sense why people underestimate their energy intake
If you’re on a ketogenic diet and you go out to eat, there’s a lot you can’t eat, but you can usually make do
If you’re on time restricted feeding you can join your friends for a breakfast out
With flexible dieting you have to keep track of what you eat
People take this stat as an affront, “ I’m not a liar ”
Instead people are just really horrible estimators of what they eat
A serving of ice cream is not a bowl of ice cream
A bowl of ice cream is probably 3 servings, so it makes sense why people underestimate their energy intake

Even if you don’t practice flexible dieting, tracking and weighing every single thing you put in your mouth for a week is an incredibly valuable tool because it will teach you about portion control and you’ll learn more about nutrition in that week than you would doing anything else

A lot of people don’t want to do it for the same reason a lot of people don’t want to keep a budget for their money They don’t want to know They don’t want to see where’ they’ve been spending money
Layne has had many people tell him, “ I’m eating 1500 calories a day and can’t lose weight ”
Peter finds it hard to believe you can’t lose weight on 1500 calories
Layne recalls a metabolic ward study where they put people on 1500 calories and 1 person gained a tiny amount of weight, but the majority lost weight
The point is, it’s useful for people to track what they eat for a while People who have never tracked before are stunned to find out what they are eating
Layne’s app is different from a calorie tracking app because it gives you macros to eat based on your dietary preference and goals It will adjust them based on how you’re progressing, so it’s not just a one and done calculation
When Layne first started doing this he would bring a book of food counts with him to the grocery store, but now he’s been doing it for 20 years So when he picks up a brownie, he knows the calorie density is going to be similar to other brownies The carb and fat ratio might be a bit different He put it in the app as a random brownie from Sara Lee or whatever The apps now make it much easier to track
He really tries to think about what something weighs The brownie was about 40 g
They don’t want to know
They don’t want to see where’ they’ve been spending money
People who have never tracked before are stunned to find out what they are eating
It will adjust them based on how you’re progressing, so it’s not just a one and done calculation
So when he picks up a brownie, he knows the calorie density is going to be similar to other brownies The carb and fat ratio might be a bit different He put it in the app as a random brownie from Sara Lee or whatever The apps now make it much easier to track
The carb and fat ratio might be a bit different
He put it in the app as a random brownie from Sara Lee or whatever
The apps now make it much easier to track
The brownie was about 40 g

Does Layne track everything he eats?

Peter and Layne went out to dinner 2 nights ago, and Peter didn’t see Layne put anything in the app
He did it after

How did you remember what we ate and like the bone marrow and all that crazy stuff we were eating?

There was an entry for bone marrow he found
It’s very likely that some of these are inaccurate, but it’s going to be more accurate than jus saying, “ Well, I have not idea, so I’m not going to worry about it ”

Do you think the act of tracking helps you put a governor on what you eat?

Did the fact that you had to enter 40 g of brownie prevent you from having 3 brownies?

At this point for Layne, no; but for some people, absolutely
One of the most basic laws of science is when you monitor something, it changes
When Layne talks to people who can’t lose weight, he emphasizes that he doesn’t expect people to track their food forever For just 1 week, track everything that you put into your mouth Weigh it on a scale When people do this 1 of 2 things happens 1 – They come back and are shocked that they were eating 2,900 calories Layne tells them, “ Welcome to freedom. Because now you know that you’re not broken, you can modify ” 2 – They actually eat the amount of calories they said they were eating, and they lose 3 lbs
For just 1 week, track everything that you put into your mouth Weigh it on a scale
When people do this 1 of 2 things happens
1 – They come back and are shocked that they were eating 2,900 calories Layne tells them, “ Welcome to freedom. Because now you know that you’re not broken, you can modify ”
2 – They actually eat the amount of calories they said they were eating, and they lose 3 lbs
Weigh it on a scale
Layne tells them, “ Welcome to freedom. Because now you know that you’re not broken, you can modify ”

“ What [gets] monitored is what gets changed ”‒ Layne Norton

When you get people to monitor thing, they change their behavior

The nutritional demands of preparing for a bodybuilding show [2:30:45]

Changes Layne makes when preparing for a bodybuilding show

He can’t guesstimate on what he puts into his diet tracking app; he gets more granular
When he goes out to eat, the sacrifice might be that he takes all the ingredients, put them on a scale and tracks it
The other sacrifice is he can’t go out with his friends anymore
He adds, “ In the last four weeks I’m pretty much a hermit ”

“ All these different forms of restriction are just tools ”‒ Layne Norton

Layne thinks it’s really educational for folks who have never tracked what they eat to try it You’ll learn so much about portion sizes You’ll go, “ Whoa, I didn’t realize that restaurants serve such massive portion sizes ”
Layne can’t count how many times he’s been eating something really good and gone, “ I don’t need anymore ”
You’ll learn so much about portion sizes
You’ll go, “ Whoa, I didn’t realize that restaurants serve such massive portion sizes ”

Are you still hungry when you push it away?

Being in tune with your hunger signals plus some bit of monitoring is helpful
But that’s also hard when you’re eating processed food, energy dense, hyper palatable food
Previously, we could auto-regulate what we ate based on our hunger signals because we were in a situation where food wasn’t energy dense enough You would become uncomfortable based on the volume of food you were eating
Even up to 1950, you had to walk down to the bakery to get processed, energy dense, hyperpalatable food (it wasn’t readily available) Serving sizes were a lot smaller then too Dinner plates in the early 1900s are much smaller than they are now
Peter relates this to traveling in Europe, “ No matter how many times I go to Italy or something like that, I can’t get over how small the portions are. And it’s really wonderful because I’m just a glutton .”
Part of growing up as an immigrant kid was you ate what was on your plate He can’t recall how many times he got the lecture about not wasting food, and kids in Africa that don’t have anything The clean plate was just part of your mindset
You would become uncomfortable based on the volume of food you were eating
Serving sizes were a lot smaller then too
Dinner plates in the early 1900s are much smaller than they are now
He can’t recall how many times he got the lecture about not wasting food, and kids in Africa that don’t have anything
The clean plate was just part of your mindset

Do you think you’ll do another bodybuilding show? [2:33:45]

Right now, Layne is in a long season off
He has a lot of things going on business wise (he’s very grateful for that)
He’s hoping to get to the point where he’s working because he wants to work not because he feels like he has to work That’s the dream He loves what he does He doesn’t see himself ever retiring, but it would be nice to have a little more freedom to go and do the things he’s super passionate about
Bodybuilding and getting ready for a show takes a significant amount of time and energy
Powerlifting already does that, but he can powerlift without the brain fog, mood swings, etc.
Case studies of bodybuilders at a show report they are hypogonadal by the time they hit stage Layne has measured his testosterone probably half a dozen times in the last 5 years The lowest has been 900 The highest was almost 1100 When he was competing in bodybuilding, it was under 300 when he was close to a show His LH and FSH is normal
That’s the dream
He loves what he does
He doesn’t see himself ever retiring, but it would be nice to have a little more freedom to go and do the things he’s super passionate about
Layne has measured his testosterone probably half a dozen times in the last 5 years The lowest has been 900 The highest was almost 1100 When he was competing in bodybuilding, it was under 300 when he was close to a show
His LH and FSH is normal
The lowest has been 900
The highest was almost 1100
When he was competing in bodybuilding, it was under 300 when he was close to a show

“ Think about the hungriest you’ve ever been in your life and now imagine that feeling doesn’t leave you for weeks and the lowest energy ”‒ Layne Norton

What’s the absolute nadir of calories you’re consuming at the lowest?

At his level of lean mass, 1900 calories a day 260 g protein Around 100 g carbohydrate (or less) 30-40 g fat
260 g protein
Around 100 g carbohydrate (or less)
30-40 g fat

What does that look like practically? What actual foods are you eating?

Egg whites, chicken breast, some fat-free Greek yogurt
You have to be very careful with your fats when you’re that low calorie Even eating something that has 7 g of fat (which by all accounts is a low fat item), you have to be careful because those grams can sneak up very quickly
Even eating something that has 7 g of fat (which by all accounts is a low fat item), you have to be careful because those grams can sneak up very quickly

Can you have nuts?

Oh, no

Low energy is a real problem

Before a show he struggles with very low energy
He remembers sitting on the couch after training, the remote control was probably 5 feet away, and the Real Housewives was playing (a show he abhors) He sat and watched the entire show because he was not willing to get up and get the remote That’s how exhausted he was
He sat and watched the entire show because he was not willing to get up and get the remote
That’s how exhausted he was

How many weeks were you into calorie restriction at that point?

20 weeks in (not at 1900 calories)
His calories have progressively come down It’s a body fat issue He’s had clients who were able to eat higher calories and get really lean
At a certain point of body fat, it doesn’t matter if you are lean and your leptin is low, your testosterone is low
Eric Helms describes contest prep as like you’re circling a drain and you’re just trying to delay going down the drain as long as possible, but eventually you go down the drain
It’s a body fat issue
He’s had clients who were able to eat higher calories and get really lean

How do you get the energy to get on stage? Do you have one big push of carbs shortly before you go on stage?

There are spurts where you feel okay
It’s not too difficult for Layne to go from 15% body fat on calipers to 7%
He had gone up a weight class in powerlifting a few years ago and then came back down This was a 30 lb weight drop
The lowest he ever calipered was 2%, but it was probably more like 5-6%
To go from 7% to 3% or 2% is infinitely more difficult
The best way to describe it‒ think of getting toothpaste out of the tube It’s easy with a fresh tube But as that toothpaste tube gets emptier and emptier, you have to expend more and more effort to squeeze out that last little bit of toothpaste Contest prep is very much like that
But you do have times when you have energy because you still have to train 2-3 hours a day
The part of contest prep Layne despises is he gets to a point where he doesn’t like training anymore He continues with it for energy expenditure and to retain muscle He loses his passion for it, and he’s somebody who loves to train (it’s his favorite thing in the world)
He did periodize his nutrition so he would have some higher calorie days on days that were more demanding for training These were usually lower body training days
This was a 30 lb weight drop
It’s easy with a fresh tube
But as that toothpaste tube gets emptier and emptier, you have to expend more and more effort to squeeze out that last little bit of toothpaste
Contest prep is very much like that
He continues with it for energy expenditure and to retain muscle
He loses his passion for it, and he’s somebody who loves to train (it’s his favorite thing in the world)
These were usually lower body training days

Water

As far as getting on stage, one thing he never cuts for bodybuilding shows is water
A lot of people cut water
Layne thinks this is silly because a muscle is 70% water and in your native state you keep more water inside your muscle cell than you do outside your muscle cell
If you begin removing more fluid via a diuretic or fluid restriction/ sodium restriction, you remove it in the same proportion from the subcutaneous layer and the intracellular layer All you’re going to do is become flatter overall In the intravascular layer, you get hypertensive
Not cutting water helped Layne with his energy He was never dehydrated He didn’t cut sodium or take a diuretic
All you’re going to do is become flatter overall
In the intravascular layer, you get hypertensive
He was never dehydrated
He didn’t cut sodium or take a diuretic

Are diuretics legal in testing?

You could take OTC diuretics like dandelion root and those sorts of things
The logic behind why people cut water and sodium is funny It’s like somebody saw a figure of the sodium-potassium pump in a book and reasoned, the cell wants to get sodium out and potassium in, let’s cut sodium and load potassium The physiology is‒ if you get the sodium to potassium ratio too low, it will cause you to retain water as well
It’s like somebody saw a figure of the sodium-potassium pump in a book and reasoned, the cell wants to get sodium out and potassium in, let’s cut sodium and load potassium
The physiology is‒ if you get the sodium to potassium ratio too low, it will cause you to retain water as well

Food the week before a show

During peak week, food went back up
If you’re still trying to lose body fat that close to a show, it’s probably not going to go well for you
In peak week, he’ll usually start to feel better as opposed to worse
On the day of the show he’ll have 300-400 g carbohydrate
A lot of the dogmas in bodybuilding originated in wrestling and endurance running The correlation was, wrestlers cut water and look really lean, so we should cut water
Layne points to the example of Georges St-Pierre , when he weighed in, he looked gaunt He didn’t look healthy, not very muscular And then the day of the fight (24 hours later), he looked like a bodybuilder
The correlation was, wrestlers cut water and look really lean, so we should cut water
He didn’t look healthy, not very muscular
And then the day of the fight (24 hours later), he looked like a bodybuilder

That shows you what drinking water, eating enough sodium and carbohydrate will do for your muscle fullness because muscles are 70% water

Layne thinks not beating his body up with fluid restriction helped him have a little more longevity in bodybuilding/powerlifting

The psychological effects of aging and changes to one’s identity [2:42:00]

How do you think about aging in terms of reduction in strength and change in physique? What do you think about being 60 or 70?

This is obviously an important part of Layne’s identity
He is 40 now
Of course he will struggle with it
For any athlete, that is part of your identity for a long period of your life
Layne feels fortunate in that he has had multiple identities Academic, influencer, entrepreneur, powerlifter, bodybuilder, scientist, a dad
He thinks it will be a little easier for him because he already has other things he cares about
Of course it will be hard, nobody whose successful doesn’t have any ego whatsoever
When he loads up a bar with 500 lbs in a commercial gym and is squatting, “ that part of me feels like a badass ” There will be part of him that misses that
His goal is not to be the guy who benched 405 (or whatever it is) or squatted 600 until his knees hurt
Academic, influencer, entrepreneur, powerlifter, bodybuilder, scientist, a dad
There will be part of him that misses that

I think really what’s going to be most important for me is just trying to not judge it and just find other things that I can be interested in

He will still always lift, always train He loves it too much not to do it It makes him feel food
He got a great complement at the gym the other day when he casually brought up that he turned 40 this year A lady was like, what? “ I would’ve guessed that you were like mid-30s ”
He loves it too much not to do it
It makes him feel food
A lady was like, what? “ I would’ve guessed that you were like mid-30s ”

Layne thinks resistance training is one of the best things you can to to keep you young

Some of the bodybuilders out there still look really good into their 50s if they continue to do it Jay Cutler is in his 40s He trains every day and still eats really well
Jay Cutler is in his 40s He trains every day and still eats really well
He trains every day and still eats really well

Selected Links / Related Material

Previous episodes of The Drive with Layne Norton :

#163 – Layne Norton, Ph.D.: Building muscle, losing fat, and the importance of resistance training | Host Peter Attia, The Peter Attia Drive Podcast (May 24, 2021) | [0:45]
#205 – Energy balance, nutrition, & building muscle | Layne Norton, Ph.D. (Pt.2) | Host Peter Attia, The Peter Attia Drive Podcast (May 2, 2022) | [0:45]

Data suggesting you don’t have to get as close to failure on compound lifts to get the same stimulation as isolation exercises to failure :

Effect of Barbell Weight on the Structure of the Flat Bench Press | Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (H Krol & A Golas 2017) | [28:00]
Strength Training with Repetitions to Failure does not Provide Additional Strength and Muscle Hypertrophy Gains in Young Women | European Journal of Translational Myology (S Martorelli et al. 2017) | [28:00]
Effect of Resistance Training to Muscle Failure vs. Volitional Interruption at High- and Low-Intensities on Muscle Mass and Strength | Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (SR Nobrega et al. 2018) | [28:00]
Comparison of muscle activation and kinematics during free-weight back squats with different loads | PLoS One (R van den Tillar et al. 2019) | [28:00]

Australian study of a simple lifting program for older women with osteoporosis : High-Intensity Resistance and Impact Training Improves Bone Mineral Density and Physical Function in Postmenopausal Women With Osteopenia and Osteoporosis: The LIFTMOR Randomized Controlled Trial | Journal of bone and Mineral Research (SL Watson et al. 2018) | [30:30]

PI explaining the previous study on YouTube : Ask the Expert Osteoporosis Australia | Professor Belinda Beck, The Bone Clinic (August 22, 2017) | [30:45]

Mouse study found muscle growth boosted by previous exposure to testosterone : A cellular memory mechanism aids overload hypertrophy in muscle long after an episodic exposure to anabolic steroids | The Journal of Physiology (IM Egner et al. 2013) | [39:30]

Cystatin C is better than creatine to assess renal function : Serum Cystatin C for Estimation of GFR | JAMA Diagnostic Test Interpretation (MG Shlipak et al. 2022) | [59:30]

Supplementing with creatine increased DHT : Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby players | Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine (J van der Merwe et al. 2009) | [1:00:45]

Meta-analysis of creatine supplementation : Meta-Analysis Examining the Importance of Creatine Ingestion Strategies on Lean Tissue Mass and Strength in Older Adults | Nutrients (SC Forbes et al. 2021) | [1:02:00]

Initial research on the idea of time under tension : Muscle time under tension during resistance exercise stimulates differential muscle protein sub-fractional synthetic responses in men | The Journal of Physiology (NA Burd et al. 2012) | [1:08:45]

Studies on fast eccentrics versus slow eccentrics found a little better outcome for fast eccentrics with respect to muscle mass :

The effects of eccentric and concentric training at different velocities on muscle hypertrophy | European Journal of Applied Physiology (JP Farthing & PD Chilibeck 2003) | [1:09:45]
Greater muscle damage induced by fast versus slow velocity eccentric exercise | International Journal of Sports Medicine (D Chapman et al. 2006) | [1:09:45]

Episode of The Drive with Jeremy Loenneke : #179 – Jeremy Loenneke, Ph.D.: The science of blood flow restriction—benefits, uses, and what it teaches us about the relationship between muscle size and strength | Host Peter Attia, The Peter Attia Drive Podcast (October 11, 2021) | [1:14:30]

Long isometric contraction produces hypertrophy : Skeletal muscle hypertrophy in response to isometric, lengthening, and shortening training bouts of equivalent duration | Journal of Applied Physiology (BR Adams et al. 2004) | [1:14:45]

Layne’s podcast with Alan Levinovitz : #16 – Interview with professor of religious studies, Dr. Alan Levinovitz | Host Layne Norton, The Beauty and The Geek | [1:23:18]

Book on the fallacy of naturalism : Natural: How Faith in Nature’s Goodness Leads to Harmful Fads, Unjust Laws, and Flawed Science by Alan Levinovitz (2020) | [1:13:15]

Episode of The Drive with Don Layman : #224 ‒ Dietary protein: amount needed, ideal timing, quality, and more | Don Layman, Ph.D. | Host Peter Attia, The Peter Attia Drive Podcast (September 26, 2022) | [1:25:45]

Layne’s conversation with Thomas DeLauer : Thomas DeLauer and Layne Norton: The Interview You Never Saw Coming! | Low Carb, Keto, CICO and MORE | biolayne (Dec 15, 2021) | [1:32:00]

Minnesota heart study :

Test of effect of lipid lowering by diet on cardiovascular risk. The Minnesota Coronary Survey | Arteriosclerosis (ID Frantz et al. 1989) | [1:43:00, 2:04:15]
Re-evaluation of the traditional diet-heart hypothesis: analysis of recovered data from Minnesota Coronary Experiment (1968-73) | BMJ (CE Ramsden et al. 2016) | [1:43:00, 2:04:15]

Australian heart study : Coronary risk factor screening and long-term follow up: year 1 of the Sydney Coronary Heart Disease Prevention Programme | The Medical Journal of Australia (LA Simons and AS Jones 1978) | [1:43:00]

Layne’s supplement company : Outwork Nutrition (2022) | [1:45:45]

Consumption of meat with fruits and vegetables and incidence of cancer : Co-consumption of Vegetables and Fruit, Whole Grains, and Fiber Reduces the Cancer Risk of Red and Processed Meat in a Large Prospective Cohort of Adults from Alberta’s Tomorrow Project | Nutrients (K Maximova et al. 2020) | [1:57:45]

Meta-analysis of animal protein intake and mortality : Animal Protein Intake Is Inversely Associated With Mortality in Older Adults: The InCHIANTI Study | The journals of gerontology (T Merono et al. 2022) | [2:01:30]

ODYSSEY trial of PCSK9 inhibitor : Efficacy and Safety of Alirocumab in Reducing Lipids and Cardiovascular Events | NEJM (JG Robinson et al. 2015) | [2:08:45]

FOURIER trials of PCSK9 inhibitor : Evolocumab and Clinical Outcomes in Patients with Cardiovascular Disease | NEJM (MS Sabatine et al. 2017) | [2:08:45]

Layne’s interview with Jake Leonard about eating disorders : #11 – Interview with Dr. Jake Linardon on Breaking Binge Eating | Host Layne Norton, Beauty and the Geek (December 31, 2020) | [2:20:45]

Layne’s app for tracking what you eat : Carbon: Simple. Scientific. Sustainable (2022) | [2:27:45]

People Mentioned

Zach Robinson (Layne’s coach) [19:30, 1:07:15]
Mike Zourdos (Department Chair and Professor of Exercise Science and Health Promotion at Florida Atlantic University) [19:30]
Bryce Lewis (Elite powerlifter) [49:30]
Dan Green (Elite powerlifter) [52:30]
Mike Mentzer (Elite bodybuilder and author) [1:14:15]
Jeremy Loenneke (Associate Professor of Health, Exercise Science & Recreation Management at the University of Mississippi) [1:14:30]
Alan Levinovitz (Associate Professor of Religion at James Madison University) [1:23:15]
Donald Layman (Professor of Food Science and Human Nutrition at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign College of Agricultural) [1:25:45]
Mark Hyman (MD and author of books on nutrition) [1:31:00]
Thomas DeLauer (nutrition and business performance coach) [1:31:45]
Tim Tebow (NFL player, previous quarterback of the Denver Broncos) [1:33:15]
Grant Tinsley (Associate Professor of Kinesiology & Sport Management at Texas Tech University) [1:47:45]
Katerina Maximova (Associate Professor at the University of Toronto Dalla Lana School of Public health) [1:57:45]
Christopher E Ramsden (Head of the Lipid Peroxidation Unit within the Laboratory of Clinical Investigation in the NIA in Baltimore, MD) [2:04:15, 2:07:00, 2:09:45, 2:11:45]
Ivan Frantz (Expert in nutrition and cardiovascular risk, led the Minnesota Coronary Experiment) [2:04:30]
Ancel Keys (American physiologists proposed replacing dietary saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat to reduce CVD) [2:06:30]
Jake Linardon (Research fellow at Deakin University and expert in eating disorders) [2:20:45]
Eric Helms (bodybuilder, coach, and author) [2:27:45]
Georges St-Pierre (former mixed martial artist) [2:41:15]
Jay Cutler (professional bodybuilder) [2:44:45]

Layne Norton earned his B.S. in Biochemistry at Eckerd College and a Ph.D. in nutritional sciences at the University of Illinois working with Dr. Donald Layman. Layne founded BioLayne to provide science-based coaching. He is a natural pro bodybuilder, professional powerlifter, and a physique coach. He has won numerous bodybuilding and powerlifting competitions and currently holds the world record for the IPF 93 kg class squat (303 kg, 668 lbs). Layne finished 1st at the 2022 IPF World Masters Powerlifting Championships in a drug-free tested division. He is the co-author of several books, including Fat Loss Forever: How to Lose Fat and KEEP It Off , as well as several research publications. [ BioLayne.com ]

Website: Biolayne
Podcast: Physique Science Radio
Twitter: @BioLayne
Facebook: Layne Norton
Instagram: Biolayne

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