podcast Peter Attia 2025-09-22 topics

#365 ‒ Training for longevity: A roundtable on building strength, preventing injury, meeting protein needs, guidance for women and youth athletes, and more | Gabrielle Lyon, Mike Boyle, Jeff Cavaliere

Audio

Show notes

In this special episode of The Drive, Peter hosts a strength and conditioning roundtable with three experts in the field—Gabrielle Lyon, Jeff Cavaliere, and Mike Boyle. Together they explore why maintaining muscle mass, strength, and power is essential for healthspan and longevity, and examine how resistance training supports metabolic resilience and injury prevention across the lifespan. The conversation covers practical strategies for getting started and staying consistent, the importance of a protein-centered diet tailored to age and activity level, and approaches to resistance training for peri- and post-menopausal women—including tendon care and optimal programming. They debate single-leg training versus heavy bilateral lifts, share knee-friendly lower-body options, and highlight exercises that belong in the “graveyard” due to poor risk-reward ratios. Finally, the group discusses youth sports specialization, emphasizing the long-term value of variety for developing lifelong athletes.

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We discuss:

Timestamps : There are two sets of timestamps associated with the topic list below. The first is audio (A), and the second is video (V). If you are listening to this podcast with the audio player on this page or in your favorite podcast player, please refer to the audio timestamps. If you are watching the video version on this page or YouTube, please refer to the video timestamps.

Personal career journeys and philosophies of each guest that shaped their approaches to strength, conditioning, and lifelong health [A: 3:30, V: 1:17];
Why so few people engage in resistance training despite its proven health benefits [A: 8:30, V: 6:58];
Mike’s low-stress, high-consistency method for training beginners to resistance training [A: 18:45, V: 18:06];
How resistance training enhances metabolic health and body composition even in lean, highly active endurance athletes [A: 25:30, V: 26:16];
The dominant role of nutrition in shaping physique and achieving low body fat, the synergistic effect of resistance training, and the unrealistic expectations about muscle growth and fat loss [A: 28:30, V: 29:45];
Why Jeff advocates for five meals a day, and why meal timing matters less than overall protein intake and caloric consistency [A: 38:00, V: 40:25];
Optimizing protein for every stage of life: quality, quantity, and guidelines for diverse diets and body types [A: 44:15, V: 47:33];
The advantages of unilateral lower-body training over heavy bilateral lifts: impact on strength, athleticism, recovery, and functional movement [A: 51:45, V: 56:05];
Rethinking heavy squats and deadlifts: risk-reward, aging bodies, and the case for reverse lunges and other single-leg alternatives [A:1:01:15, V: 1:06:59];
Adapting with age: Gabrielle on injuries, hip dysplasia, and the shift to smarter training [A: 1:10:15, V: 1:17:56];
Exercises that belong in the “iron graveyard”: unnecessarily risky exercises and their safer alternatives [A: 1:19:15, V: 1:27:28];
The downside of early sports specialization in children and the long-term benefits of encouraging kids to play multiple sports [A: 1:25:00, V: 1:34:03];
Advice for preventing an Achilles injury: calf strength, ankle mobility, and listening to pain signals [A: 1:33:15, V: 1:43:42];
Shoulder pain: how to keep training the upper body when shoulder pain limits pressing movements [A: 1:40:45, V: 1:52:45];
Effective strength training strategies for women before, during, and after the menopausal transition [A: 1:43:15, V: 1:55:35];
Best practices for strength training and athletic development in children, and the pitfalls of early sports specialization [A: 1:50:30, V: 2:03:41];
How to foster healthy habits and an interest in fitness beyond playing sports [A: 2:00:00, V: 2:14:32];
Something each guest has changed their mind about in the last five years [A: 2:04:00, V: 2:19:12]; and
More.

Show Notes

Notes from intro :
This is special episode of The Drive , a roundtable conversation devoted to strength and conditioning with the following guests:
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon ‒ a fellowship trained physician in geriatrics and nutritional sciences, founder of Muscle-Centric Medicine® and author of The New York Times bestseller Forever Strong She runs a clinical practice in Houston and continues to publish research on skeletal muscle health and metabolism
Jeff Cavaliere ‒ a physical therapist and former head strength coach and physical therapist for the New York Mets who parlayed that experience into his incredibly popular YouTube channel Using an injury smart approach to make athletic training accessible to millions
Mike Boyle ‒ a pioneering strength and conditioning coach, now in his 43rd year He popularized NFL Combine training in the 1980s and spent the 1990s with the Boston Bruins He opened the first for-profit strength and conditioning facilities in the US He was also part of one of the Boston Red Sox championship winning team
She runs a clinical practice in Houston and continues to publish research on skeletal muscle health and metabolism
Using an injury smart approach to make athletic training accessible to millions
He popularized NFL Combine training in the 1980s and spent the 1990s with the Boston Bruins
He opened the first for-profit strength and conditioning facilities in the US
He was also part of one of the Boston Red Sox championship winning team

In this episode, we discuss

The critical importance of strength training for longevity
How muscle mass, strength, and power protect healthspan as we age
The participation gap in strength training, and why closing it is crucial for lifelong health
More on strength training regarding Injury prevention Metabolic resilience The barriers that keep most people from getting started and staying consistent
The importance of building a protein-centered diet How age, activity, and metabolic health drive how much protein and carbohydrate each individual really needs
Resistance training across both peri- and post-menopause Including tendon care strategies Why good programming matters
Single-leg training versus heavy back squats and deadlifts The risk-reward calculus that led Mike to swap most bilateral lifts for unilateral work Reverse lunge mechanics and other knee-friendly lower body substitutes that still let you load heavy and grow stronger
The “exercise graveyard” ‒ why unsupported chest flies, Cuban presses, and other classics may be more risk than reward And what you should be doing instead
Early sports specialization myth for kids and why variety in sports at a young age is still valuable and necessary to becoming a lifelong athlete
Injury prevention
Metabolic resilience
The barriers that keep most people from getting started and staying consistent
How age, activity, and metabolic health drive how much protein and carbohydrate each individual really needs
Including tendon care strategies
Why good programming matters
The risk-reward calculus that led Mike to swap most bilateral lifts for unilateral work
Reverse lunge mechanics and other knee-friendly lower body substitutes that still let you load heavy and grow stronger
And what you should be doing instead

Personal career journeys and philosophies of each guest that shaped their approaches to strength, conditioning, and lifelong health [A: 3:30, V: 1:17]

This is our second version of a roundtable
[The first one focused on longevity, episode #333 ]
Unlike the first one where Peter had interviewed the 3 guests multiple times, the guests today have never been on the podcast

The “non-bio” version of who each guest is

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Gabrielle is a fellowship trained physician in geriatrics and nutritional sciences
She did her fellowship at WashU, and at the time she was very reluctant to do geriatrics because it can be an arduous and sad experience
But she was fascinated by the nutritional research side
There was a moment we were working on a study looking at body composition and brain function and she really took to one of the participants She imaged her brain, and at her mid 50s she looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer’s brain And in that moment, muscle-centric medicine, which is the concept that Gabrielle practiced and founded
She imaged her brain, and at her mid 50s she looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer’s brain
And in that moment, muscle-centric medicine, which is the concept that Gabrielle practiced and founded

⇒ Muscle-centric medicine : skeletal muscle is the focal point of all our health and wellness

Gabrielle is the author of a New York Times bestseller called Forever Strong [the accompanying playbook will be published in 2026]
She continues to do research and work within the space
She has a medical practice and sees patients
She just submitted a paper on the relationship between sexual function and muscle mass

Michael Boyle

Mike is a coach, this is his 43rd year coaching
He was lucky enough to bounce right out of college and into a coaching job
He started out as an athletic trainer
He invented training for the NFL Combine in the ‘80s
He worked in the NHL for the Boston Bruins from ‘90-’99 while he worked at BU [Boston University] Strength coaches were part-timers at that point in time He worked at BU for 30+ years
He opened one of the first for-profit businesses around strength and conditioning in 1997
In 2012, he left BU and jumped over to the Red Soc for 2 years, where he was able to get a world series ring in 2 years
He realized that was not very conductive with being a good father, a good husband ‒ so he left pro sports
Currently, he coaches his son and his friends who play college lacrosse
He still works as a personal trainer and as a strength conditioning coach
More than anything, he’s a practitioner
He sees patients that range from age 11 to 80 He doesn’t take kids until they are 11 because we really don’t want the min the gym before that His oldest client right now is 89 ‒ that’s his son’s pediatrician He has a couple of 3 generation families all training in the same space
Strength coaches were part-timers at that point in time
He worked at BU for 30+ years
He doesn’t take kids until they are 11 because we really don’t want the min the gym before that
His oldest client right now is 89 ‒ that’s his son’s pediatrician
He has a couple of 3 generation families all training in the same space

Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff is a physical therapist by trade
He moved out of the clinic at an early stage, got a great opportunity to work in that role for the New York Mets Which was a dream come true for him because he was a die-hard Met fan growing up
From there, he piggybacked into how could he continue this education of athletes on a broader platform
He was well aware of the power of the internet at that time, so he started a YouTube channel
Now it’s not just about training athletes and empowering athletes, but empowering people who want to be more athletic, feel more athletic, move more athletically in daily life That became his mission
Beyond having to maintain a certain level of consistency (because he wants to practice what he preaches), he has two young boys (twins) He started late; he’s 40 He wants to make sure he can keep up with them when they’re ready to have him run and play
He has a lot of motivation to keep doing what he’s doing and stay in shape
He believes that requires having an understanding of injury, training around injuries Because no matter what, as we get older, things do start to break down and you have to have strategies to be able to push through that and train around that
And that’s where his big strength is as a PT to provide that background to help people do that more readily
Which was a dream come true for him because he was a die-hard Met fan growing up
That became his mission
He started late; he’s 40
He wants to make sure he can keep up with them when they’re ready to have him run and play
Because no matter what, as we get older, things do start to break down and you have to have strategies to be able to push through that and train around that

Why so few people engage in resistance training despite its proven health benefits [A: 8:30, V: 6:58]

Do we have a sense of what percentage of people in the United States do not practice resistance training?

Gabrielle Lyon

We know that 50% of Americans are not training or doing any kind of exercise
Probably 70% in total do not meet the criteria for both activities

Mike Boyle

It’s lower than 30% when you’re talking about resistance training
20% of people belong to a gym
Home gym stats aren’t very good in terms of people

“ The home gym person who actually has one and uses it is probably more unicorn than we think they are. ”‒ Mike Boyle

If you start looking at that number: 20% have a membership, 50% of those people use it

Which now brings us down to only 10% of people in the United States are actually in a gym

Then you look at that and say what percentage of them are resistance training?
Maybe now we’re down to 5% because you see a lot more hamster wheel people who are just walking on a treadmill or walking on a stair climber or whatever it is

Mike thinks the numbers of people resistance training are pretty low (maybe 5%)

Jeff Cavaliere

We have digital statistics that actually show people who have signed up to train with our programs , let’s say either be at home or at the gym

The percentage of people that make it through our programs is only 20%

And that’s twice the industry standard for digital (which is usually 10% or so) Those are people who showed the commitment, made a purchase, put their hard-earned dollars behind it, have everything they need in terms of the tools and sets and reps and what’s supposed to be done and only 10% will finish a program
Those are people who showed the commitment, made a purchase, put their hard-earned dollars behind it, have everything they need in terms of the tools and sets and reps and what’s supposed to be done and only 10% will finish a program

“ I think there’s a lot more of a desire to do things, but the ability to actually follow through is where, I think, we’re having the hardest time .”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

Peter points out

Gabrielle’s stat is 70% of 50
The reciprocal of that is 30% of 50 (or 15%)
Peter has never been shy about his thesis, which is of all the pillars that we have to embark on improving our health, whether it be changing our nutrition, improving our sleep, taking the medications and supplements, that can be actually quite important

Peter doesn’t see any evidence that anything trumps exercise

Purely from an actual lifespan perspective and from the standpoint of reducing the risk of chronic disease
When you then layer in the benefits it has on quality of life, it’s just a no-brainer

What do you think explains the disconnect between the fact that we have this incredible tool that will lengthen your life, improve the quality of your life, make you look and feel better, and yet 5%, 10%, at most 15% of people engage in it? What are the barriers?

Mike, I’m going to start with you because you’ve been at this the longest

Mike Boyle

The biggest barrier is just life Lifestyle, kids, jobs, people thinking
You really have to commit to [the time to do it} Is it getting there early? Is it going there after work? Whatever it is, it’s adding hours to your day
In some ways, that’s economic People don’t have the economic freedom to say, “ Hey, I can devote .” That’s why he laughs sometimes when he hears people talking about hours per week of exercise and hours per week of cardio If he can get someone to do 2 hours a week
Lifestyle, kids, jobs, people thinking
Is it getting there early?
Is it going there after work?
Whatever it is, it’s adding hours to your day
People don’t have the economic freedom to say, “ Hey, I can devote .”
That’s why he laughs sometimes when he hears people talking about hours per week of exercise and hours per week of cardio
If he can get someone to do 2 hours a week

Mike thinks 75 hard minutes a week is a realistic amount of time to spend training

But even 150 minutes, some of the guidelines are crazy
And then there’s a lack of awareness You don’t know you’re losing the battle until it’s too late
This is what he sees in his business People come in at 50, or thank God they got here now at 55 because the end for them was going to be bad
Mike has been following Peter for a while, and he’s getting the message out in a way that it hasn’t gotten ot before
Before the message was geeky or nichey, but it wasn’t this, “ Hey, this is really good for you and this is going to make you live longer and live better. It’s a double bonus. ” You want to live longer, but who wants a long, shitty life?
Mike and Jeff have talked about this, and Mike has experienced 50 to 65
You don’t know you’re losing the battle until it’s too late
People come in at 50, or thank God they got here now at 55 because the end for them was going to be bad
You want to live longer, but who wants a long, shitty life?

“ I’ve experienced 50 to 65 and trust me, it’s not fun. The decline is rapid and the decline is significant .”‒ Mike Boyle

If you don’t wake up by the time you’re 50, you’re going to be in real trouble by the time you’re 65

Gabrielle, how much of a difference do you see between men and women who are new to resistance training in terms of barriers to entry?

“ There’s nothing more important for maintaining health and wellness than taking care of muscle health. ”‒ Gabrielle Lyon

Whether it’s strength training, mobility resistance ‒ skeletal muscle health is really what we’re talking about

Part of the disconnect from men versus women or people in general is cultural

We live in a society of comfort
It’s very easy to take the escalator or take an elevator
When it comes to nutrition, we all have to eat, but we don’t all have to move You literally could sit at home, order groceries from Amazon Prime everything, and never had to take more than 300 steps
For women, typically strength and strength training has not been the focus, even just from a standpoint of walking to the gym (you’re starting to see it more)
Gabrielle feels like we are on the precipice of women recognizing the importance of strength and muscle, especially with new conversations around menopause and more potent conversations
People are busy
The other aspect of that is there are self-imposed limitations A woman would look at a 40 pound weight and go, “ I can’t lift that .” But she would look at her 40 pound toddler and go, “ I’m going to lift that and then I’m going to carry my groceries. I’ve got it .”
You literally could sit at home, order groceries from Amazon Prime everything, and never had to take more than 300 steps
A woman would look at a 40 pound weight and go, “ I can’t lift that .”
But she would look at her 40 pound toddler and go, “ I’m going to lift that and then I’m going to carry my groceries. I’ve got it .”

Gabrielle makes the point, “That’s really where I think that we can change the disconnect is re-educating the importance of muscle and then also changing the cultural conversation.”

Peter notices that Gabrielle is really fit. Has resistance training always been something you have enjoyed?

She grew up doing it
By the time she was 5, she was riding 10 miles on a bike
Yes, she has always trained

“ With the conversation around children, if we teach them good habits now, then we don’t have to have them spend a lifetime outgrowing old habits .”‒ Gabrielle Lyon

Peter is in the same boat (he’s always trained), and he suspects that true for this group

One of the challenges Peter has when talking to patients who are more representative of the “real world” is that people don’t enjoy the feeling of lifting weights

People say it hurts and they don’t like it
Peter can appreciate the honesty, but he can’t relate It’s hard when you can’t relate to what your patient is saying
He can relate when they complain about having to watch what they eat because that’s a struggle he has
It’s hard when you can’t relate to what your patient is saying

Do you think that that’s a function of having started early?

Or do you think that there are literally just, just as we have people with different eye colors and different heights, there are truly differences in genetic hard-wiring that would speak to an individual’s appetite for that kind of discomfort?

Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff thinks it’s the latter
There are some people who are more inclined to enjoy that type of stress
For him, it doesn’t matter how much he runs, he does not enjoy the stress of running He doesn’t enjoy the feeling he gets in his lungs when he’s sucking for air
He’ll do it because he knows he has to, but there’s no enjoyability about that
Training hard and lifting weights and pushing himself to the utmost level of effort, that’s always been something he actually enjoys
He doesn’t enjoy the feeling he gets in his lungs when he’s sucking for air

Anyone can learn to enjoy training hard and lifting weights, and you can get better at it

Just like he can learn the discipline to continue to push and run when he doesn’t want to
After doing it for a while, when you start to see results, the results actually might become motivating enough to go like, “ Well, there is a trade-off here. I’m seeing the trade-off. ”

Often what’s stopping people is the perceived level of what they’re going to have to do is usually bigger than what they have to do

Jeff has mentioned before that you can build a great body on 6 exercises

The row , squat, deadlift, bench, pullup, curl (done) [demonstrated in the video below] You’ve got everything you need, you don’t have to complicate it
You’ve got everything you need, you don’t have to complicate it

Jeff adds, “ If you keep trying to get stronger at those exercises, now you might get bored to tears, but you can build the prerequisite foundation to get a better body. ”

Sometimes people want to complicate it in their heads so that they have an easier “out” It makes it easier to say they don’t have time for all that
It makes it easier to say they don’t have time for all that

Jeff’s analogy

He’s known a few people who’ve wanted to start businesses
They have this great idea, they’re gung-ho and want to do it, and then they get caught up in, “ I don’t know if I should set up an LLC or if I should do it as a corporation. I want to get my business cards. I can’t figure out my logo. ”

They’re doing all that stuff and they never actually take the step of actually just starting what their service is going to be (and they never get going)

People do the same thing in terms of fitness

They make it bigger and they make the commitment larger so that they can almost have a safe landing spot to be like, “ Yeah, I just couldn’t get it going. ”

“ It’s our job to educate them as to how simple it [training] can actually be, simple being what you need to do. But I think the commitment to actually showing up and doing it, that’s hard .”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

Mike’s low-stress, high-consistency method for training beginners to resistance training [A: 18:45, V: 18:06]

Mike, what percentage of the people that walk into your gym are coming to resistance training for the first time?

Maybe 50% (if he was guessing)
Some of them were high school athletes and have some basic relationship with strength training

What percentage of them are approaching intelligent strength training for the first time? 100%

People come in and they look at us like, “ What are you doing? ”
When you were talking about people saying the discomfort, Mike’s first thing would be like, “ What discomfort? There shouldn’t be any discomfort .” If you come in and start working with him, his whole goal is that you should get out of bed the next day and be like, “ I think I worked out. I felt okay .” He always tells everybody, “ If you get up in the morning and you’re crippled, I suck. I did a really bad job. You should not be uncomfortable at all. ”
If you come in and start working with him, his whole goal is that you should get out of bed the next day and be like, “ I think I worked out. I felt okay .”
He always tells everybody, “ If you get up in the morning and you’re crippled, I suck. I did a really bad job. You should not be uncomfortable at all. ”

“ This is slow and steady wins the race, 1% better, however you want to look at it .”‒ Mike Boyle

Mike is a big attendance guy

⇒ If he can get you to show up 2 days a week for a year, you’ll be remarkably different

You might not have ever had “balls to the wall” or go to failure We would’ve done none of that. Zero. And yet you would look at somebody and think, wow
We would’ve done none of that. Zero.
And yet you would look at somebody and think, wow

Mike adds, “ If you came into our place, everybody looks younger than they do. I am 100% certain not just of the longevity benefit, but about the physical change that people undergo .”

He’ll show you people and say, “ Yeah, that guy’s an 80-year-old, two-time cancer survivor .” People are amazed They all look different, they all look younger
What is that? Is it hormonal? Mike doesn’t know
People are amazed
They all look different, they all look younger

He knows that it works and he knows that it doesn’t have to be hard and it doesn’t have to be uncomfortable

Case study #1: a 50-year-old guy who has traded his health for wealth and has recently had a health scare

Maybe his blood pressure is really high or there’s something going on
Maybe he’s just confronted his own mortality: he lost a parent That’s a big “wake-up call” for someone in their 50s
He played sports in high school, but that was about it
He doesn’t really do much of anything now and somehow has landed in Mike’s gym Maybe he saw Jeff on Instagram and was like, “ That guy looks incredible. I’ve got to do something. What he’s doing sounds cool. ”
That’s a big “wake-up call” for someone in their 50s
Maybe he saw Jeff on Instagram and was like, “ That guy looks incredible. I’ve got to do something. What he’s doing sounds cool. ”

Mike, how do you interview this guy?

How do you find out what his goals are?

How do you create that show-up attendance pattern that’s going to make sure he can give you a year of 2 days a week?

Mike Boyle

The show-up attendance pattern is a big thing, and there’s a really good book called Never Lose a Customer Again
Mike approaches his business much more like a restaurant: Unreasonable Hospitality is the Will Guidara book

Mike trains his coaches (he refer to them coaches more than trainers) way more in the customer service skills because we realize that we want to get the person to come back

⇒ That’s the goal: get them to get through the first workout and get them to come back

We don’t interview people a lot
Mike doesn’t talk to people about their goals Your goal is to not be the sad sack of shit that you are right now (unfortunately), and we just want to get you going It’s like just get them on the conveyor belt and carry them through
This is one thing that CrossFit did well: they created a community
Your goal is to not be the sad sack of shit that you are right now (unfortunately), and we just want to get you going
It’s like just get them on the conveyor belt and carry them through

You need to create a community where people feel comfortable

One of the problems that Mike had was people would say, “ Oh, I can’t go there. It’s all athletes. ” Because they come in and just from a marketing standpoint, there’s jerseys all over the place and it looks like a place where athletes train, but 65% of our business are people like us
Just getting them to be comfortable in that environment and getting them to show up again
We tell everybody, “ If you’ve got new people in your group, you should text them that day and you should text them the next day .” How was it? How did you feel this morning?
We’re trying to build a relationship because it’s relationship marketing: know, like, trust All the things that you read about Get them to know you, like you, trust you, want to come back, want to be part of it And then we can take care of the training part
Because they come in and just from a marketing standpoint, there’s jerseys all over the place and it looks like a place where athletes train, but 65% of our business are people like us
How was it?
How did you feel this morning?
All the things that you read about
Get them to know you, like you, trust you, want to come back, want to be part of it
And then we can take care of the training part

“ The training part to me is relatively easy. It’s the getting that person to be consistent and to come [to the gym] .”‒ Mike Boyle

Mike calls them “check the box” clients

If you check the box (which means you got to Mike Boyle’s twice this week) you will get better, you will feel better

Say a little bit about the programming

Mike Boyle

It’s very assembly line-ish
Mike always talks about the idea that it’s a recipe and not a menu, so no one gets to pick what they want to do You come in, this is how the cake is made, it’s in this order, this is what you get Don’t like it? Go someplace else where they like the meal Go to Planet Fitness, you can make your own cake You want to come here? You do it the way we do it
Everybody foam rolls, everybody stretches, everybody does their immobility work, everybody does dynamic warm-up, everybody throws medicine balls, everybody does some sort of power training, plyometrics (not really, actually some sort of jump training)
Then they’ll go and they’ll lift, the lift takes 36 minutes
And then they’ll go and they’ll do some type of conditioning work
We’ll start really easy, try to give them something that’s very achievable, don’t get them particularly tired; and then boom, out the door They’re in and out in an hour (door to door)
You come in, this is how the cake is made, it’s in this order, this is what you get
Don’t like it? Go someplace else where they like the meal Go to Planet Fitness, you can make your own cake
You want to come here? You do it the way we do it
Go to Planet Fitness, you can make your own cake
They’re in and out in an hour (door to door)

36 minutes of that is actual resistance training, but everything that’s leading up to it and on the back of it is clearly training as well

For the older client, we always talk about the first 15 minutes is more important Getting people to roll, to stretch, to start to deal with their tissue limitations Because most everybody that comes in has something that hurts (no one comes in healthy)
Getting people to roll, to stretch, to start to deal with their tissue limitations
Because most everybody that comes in has something that hurts (no one comes in healthy)

Progress is made mostly by advancing weight

It’s trying to get them to engage in progressive resistance
When someone says they’ve been doing 5 lb. dumbbells for the last year, Mike thinks, “ Oh, you only wasted 50 weeks. ”
He tries to get them to pick up something a little heavier and figures out ways they can do it It could be isometrics It could be eccentrics
It could be isometrics
It could be eccentrics

Mike explains, “ We try to vary it because with our adult clients, we’re in the ‘entertrainment’ business a little bit in terms of we’ve got to keep it interesting .”

You can do 6 exercises, but we have to figure out, are there 14 different versions of those 6 exercises that we can do to keep somebody not thinking they’re doing the same thing over and over again?
If we get one complaint, it might be that we do the same exercises a lot It’s because we do the good ones
It’s because we do the good ones

Mike, are there any things that are off limits?

Our adults don’t touch a barbell

They don’t barbell bench press, they don’t barbell deadlift, they don’t barbell squat
No one squats anyway, that’s another whole conversation
Almost all of our lower body stuff is unilateral We’ll do goblet squats , basic stuff with people that are really de-conditioned because we need them to be capable with two legs before they’re going to be capable on one leg
We’re really smart and really safe That’s what you want to be if you want to keep people coming back
We’ll do goblet squats , basic stuff with people that are really de-conditioned because we need them to be capable with two legs before they’re going to be capable on one leg
That’s what you want to be if you want to keep people coming back

Mike adds, “ You can be really smart and not be really safe, and you can be really safe and not be really good, and the mid-ground is where we want to operate. ”

How resistance training enhances metabolic health and body composition even in lean, highly active endurance athletes [A: 25:30, V: 26:16]

Gabrielle, what’s the biggest thing you’re thinking about when a patient is in your practice and they’re coming along well on many of the other lifestyle adjustments?

Case-study #2: a female life-long cardio rat who loves to run

They run 2 marathons a year, they’ve been running forever
They’ve got some nagging injuries
Especially for female runners, the probability that her proximal hamstring isn’t torn up is pretty low Especially if she’s had kids, now her pelvis is tilted a little bit
She’s lean and doesn’t need to lose weight
Especially if she’s had kids, now her pelvis is tilted a little bit

How are you making the case to her that this muscle-centric approach matters?

She’s going to want to be active her whole life and the more healthy her skeletal muscle mass is…
There seems to be somewhat of a disconnect, people talk about strength and then disassociate it from mass
Gabrielle has patients like this in the practice that are very lean, have always been runners, but we’ll see their glucose creep up We will see an increase in visceral fat
We will see an increase in visceral fat

⇒ Increased blood glucose levels and increased visceral fat can be course corrected by addressing skeletal muscle mass

Gabrielle is thinking about one patient in particular: she’s around 60, she runs 100 miles (she’s an ultra) Her body composition was not nearly as good as it is now just by adding in 2 days a week of resistance training We added in 2 days a week, we pulled back on some of the mileage She’s able to move more weight; she is incredible By pulling back her training and increasing her weights and being very specific about, by changing up the movement patterns, she was able to really increase her lower body strength Obviously Gabrielle doesn’t program, but she works with coaches that program, She also improved her labs: fasting insulin, glucose, and triglycerides
Her body composition was not nearly as good as it is now just by adding in 2 days a week of resistance training
We added in 2 days a week, we pulled back on some of the mileage
She’s able to move more weight; she is incredible
By pulling back her training and increasing her weights and being very specific about, by changing up the movement patterns, she was able to really increase her lower body strength Obviously Gabrielle doesn’t program, but she works with coaches that program,
She also improved her labs: fasting insulin, glucose, and triglycerides
Obviously Gabrielle doesn’t program, but she works with coaches that program,

Do you think that improvement in her labs is purely a function of having a larger reservoir to put the glucose into?

Or do you think that it also speaks to the insulin sensitivity?

Does it even make sense to try to disentangle those two?

Gabrielle thinks the larger reservoir is important for a number of reasons

The metabolic component of muscle: muscle is a primary site for glucose metabolism and metabolism of free fatty acids at rest
It enables her to have more dietary flexibility

We think about nutritional sciences and we think about triglycerides, insulin, glucose, what we’re really looking at is the health of skeletal muscle

The markers of metabolic syndrome are the markers of healthy skeletal muscle
Does her activity improve insulin sensitivity? Yes, but her running, she’s going to be very insulin sensitive as is
Yes, but her running, she’s going to be very insulin sensitive as is

It’s really that metabolic component of having healthy skeletal muscle mass

The dominant role of nutrition in shaping physique and achieving low body fat, the synergistic effect of resistance training, and the unrealistic expectations about muscle growth and fat loss [A: 28:30, V: 29:45]

Jeff, you’re working with people a lot of times at the opposite end of the spectrum. People are coming to you often because they want to have 7% body fat

Jeff Cavaliere

Maybe they’re an actor and they’re about to do a role where they have to look a certain way
Alternatively, it might be an athlete who probably doesn’t need to be at 7% body fat, but might want to be at 7% body fat

Is it safe to say that these people that are coming to you are so long on motivation that that’s not really an issue anymore?

When your goals start to become 7% body fat, Jeff is assuming that you’re probably not 35 or 40 [% body fat] with aspirations to be 7%
These guys are usually coming in 12%, 13%, 14%, 15% body fat desires to want to get leaner for whatever reasons
Jeff always tell the athletes they have to be very conscientious of not falling in love with what they see in the mirror because ultimately they’re not getting paid to look that way Unless they are, sometimes he works with WWE athletes who do get paid to look a certain way and perform at a certain level
Unless they are, sometimes he works with WWE athletes who do get paid to look a certain way and perform at a certain level

These people are usually pretty good at being able to dial in; they’ve oftentimes done this multiple times before too

So they’ve done this and had a history of being able to get down there
They just don’t have ability to sustain it

⇒ 7% body fat is always going to be achieved through nutritional consistency; it has nothing to do with training

The level that you’re able to get down to is just a reflection of how many sacrifices you’re willing to make
You want to still drink a couple of times a week? That’s fine, you’re going to have to bump it up a notch or two
Because you really need to be able to make some cuts
Jeff doesn’t do it himself He does not make sacrifices to the point where he’s eating boiled chicken and steamed broccoli
He eats meals that are good meals (a meal that anybody can eat)
But he’s very disciplined in not straying from those meals
Your ability to stay that way is going to determine how low you’re able to get and how low you’re able to stay
He does not make sacrifices to the point where he’s eating boiled chicken and steamed broccoli

“ I always say, if you’re eating, let’s say, 5 times a day and that’s a 7-day week, it’s 35 meals. If you could stay 90% or above, you don’t have to be perfect. ”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

⇒ If you could stay 90% or above on those meals, you’re looking at 3 meals in a week that aren’t perfect

He’s not saying go hog wild and go down to Buffalo Wild Wings and start eating everything you can
They just aren’t perfect meals
Your body almost completely ignores those [imperfect, “cheat” meals] It just overlooks it, you keep going and the consistency overrides that and you’re able to get to levels that you weren’t able to achieve before
It just overlooks it, you keep going and the consistency overrides that and you’re able to get to levels that you weren’t able to achieve before

But people can’t sustain it because

Either they make it too difficult or it is actually difficult
Because getting yourself to the gym for 1 hour, 5 times a week (2 times a week, whatever that might be, even 36 minutes), that’s one level of commitment

It’s what you do in the other 23 hours of the day that determines your look because that is the nutritional responsibility that a lot of us don’t have the ability to manage well

Do you think the average person appreciates the role of nutrition in how you look? Or do you think most of them assume that person must be spending 12 hours a week lifting weights?

Jeff Cavaliere

This is a sore spot for him
People always think exercise first
To the point where he has people that will say to him if they see his abs or something, they’ll say, “ Oh, what exercise did you do for that? ” And they pat there, usually it’s a big belly that they’re patting
It’s not an exercise, it’s more pushing yourself away from the table
And they pat there, usually it’s a big belly that they’re patting

No, people don’t have an appreciation for it at all; their instinct tells them it’s just exercise

Gabrielle Lyon

Gabrielle totally agrees

⇒ The data supports the synergistic effect of resistance training activity and a calorie-controlled diet

Which people could connect the dots that it is not simply training
But to be fair, training is the most potent stimulus to muscle
What do they say? “ You cannot out-train a bad diet .” That’s true Peter feels like you could when you were 14
Peter feels like you could when you were 14

When Peter was 14

He was running 14, 15 miles every morning before his workouts
All he did was eat, but it was like a garbage disposal Breakfast was a box of Froot Loops in a large Tupperware bowl (you could put the whole box in the bowl)
But something changes when you’re 20 and you can’t do that anymore
Breakfast was a box of Froot Loops in a large Tupperware bowl (you could put the whole box in the bowl)

Gabrielle explains, “ When you’re 13 and younger, you’re very anabolic. The balance between what drives muscle changes as we age .”

When you’re young, you’re very driven by insulin
For example, Gabrielle’s daughter who is 5, she could have 5 grams of protein, she doesn’t need to have a meal threshold of 30 to get an anabolic response Because when you are younger and you are still growing, you’re very anabolic
Because when you are younger and you are still growing, you’re very anabolic

After you are done growing, you want to shift from the insulin usage to the stimulus, which now exercise becomes much more important

Mike Boyle

Mike thinks about it in a simpler sense

We go from being extremely active to extremely sedentary

Suddenly you get into your 20s and you get a job and you’re commuting and maybe you might be sitting on your ass for 10 hours a day every day
And then you might go to a bar with your friends after
He doesn’t think people sense the shift

Mike explains, “ I think our problem is that the shift is happening and then people don’t pick up on it until it’s too late .”

Suddenly, you look down at yourself and think, oh my God, what happened? I gained 40 pounds and I’m in horrible shape and I’m completely sedentary
Then they think, oh, I have to do something about this
But then they tend to revert back to whatever information they might’ve had Think about what your relationship was with exercise in high school If you’re not an athlete,, you have a terrible relationship with exercise in high school because it’s something that you’re made to do (it’s not fun) You probably don’t understand strength training
Mike recalls a great presentation where someone said, “ I’m going to bring in the most important person in fitness. ” And they brought in a woman who was a member and had her do a half hour talk She talked about just having the money to join the gym Learning how to train by following a pretty girl who seemed to know all the machines She would stay 2 machines behind her so the girl didn’t realize she was following her She would do what the girl did
Mike realized this is how people were learning
Think about what your relationship was with exercise in high school
If you’re not an athlete,, you have a terrible relationship with exercise in high school because it’s something that you’re made to do (it’s not fun)
You probably don’t understand strength training
She talked about just having the money to join the gym
Learning how to train by following a pretty girl who seemed to know all the machines She would stay 2 machines behind her so the girl didn’t realize she was following her She would do what the girl did
She would stay 2 machines behind her so the girl didn’t realize she was following her
She would do what the girl did

“ We all learned to exercise, somewhere along the way somebody created that initial imprint on us. And most people’s initial imprint is really bad. ”‒ Mike Boyle

Mike recalls that what he learned to do in his teens was just moronic in terms of the way he would look at it now (and he tells everybody this)

“ I’ve done everything conceivably wrong that you can do, and I have all the orthopedic maladies to show for it. ”‒ Mike Boyle

Do you guys have nutritionists in your business that also help people when also trying to lose weight in addition to improved strength and other metrics?

Mike Boyle

He’s tried a whole bunch of different ideas and none of them have ever really stuck
He has another one ongoing right now One of the guys that works for him is trying nutritional consults
One of the guys that works for him is trying nutritional consults

Mike has never found a nutritional approach that a lot of people would do

We deal in the most basic nutritional information that we can Hydrate better Eat more protein
He still has people who ask, “ What’s a protein? ” (adults who don’t understand)
Hydrate better
Eat more protein

Sometimes we’re “up here” and our consumer (even our intelligent consumer) is way “down here” with these incredible disconnects, misconceptions

Women will say, “ Well, I don’t want to start lifting because I don’t want to get too big ” He’s like, “ Trust me buddy. That’s not what we’re worried about right now. ” Gabrelle adds that she’s still trying to get big and she’s 110 lbs. and she’s killing herself in the gym to build muscle
He’s like, “ Trust me buddy. That’s not what we’re worried about right now. ”
Gabrelle adds that she’s still trying to get big and she’s 110 lbs. and she’s killing herself in the gym to build muscle

It’s not easy for anybody to build muscle

It’s not easy to do for males ‒ we see too much steroid use and then we seek too much responders
If you look at NFL guys, there’s people that are a way higher responder level than other people,
When Mike was a kid coming up, he was looking at people taking drugs, but he didn’t know they were taking drugs He thought, “ I could look like …”
He thought, “ I could look like …”

He remembers he’d go to bodybuilding shows, looking at Boyer Coe [shown below] and thinking, “ I can look like that, and Frank Zane . I can look like that. ”

Figure 1. Professional bodybuilder Boyer Coe . Image credit: Greatest Physiques

And then suddenly in his 20s realizing that these guys were taking drugs and that was why they looked like that
But he spent years frustrated: “ Why don’t I look that good? I’m doing all the right stuff. ”
It’s good to try to get people to see the reality

Why Jeff advocates for five meals a day, and why meal timing matters less than overall protein intake and caloric consistency [A: 38:00, V: 40:25]

Jeff, you talked a minute ago about 5 meals a day. Double click on that a little bit

Peter’s view is that most people think they’re only supposed to have 3 meals a day Or just 1 meal if they’re intermittently fasting
Jeff knows a lot of people that do intermittent fasting and actually do quite well with that
Or just 1 meal if they’re intermittently fasting

People tend to do better with more frequent meals simply because they tend to get hungry throughout the day and they don’t have good management of hunger and portion control

They don’t have willpower to wait to that next meal
If they are hungry in the mid-morning and they have nothing pre-planned or prepared for a snack, they’ll just go into the kitchen at work and start picking and grazing

⇒ In those grazing snacks is where a lot of the calories throughout the day are consumed, not in those 3 main meals, but in the grazing that happens

They can’t make it to the next meal

Jeff has found that it’s been easier to fuel more often (especially from the athletic world), and in the world of the regular individual who wants to be more disciplined with their nutrition, it’s easier to actually program in 2 additional snacks

⇒ Nothing big but just snacks in between should still focus and center around a protein

“ I believe that protein should be the cornerstone of every one of our meals and snacks because we don’t get enough. ”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

If you ate breakfast at 8 o’clock and then now your next meal is at let’s say 12 or 12:30, when it’s 10 o’clock If you get hungry and you have a snack there, you don’t have to get through 4 hours of willpower (that you don’t have right now) to get to that lunchtime You only have to get through 2 hours and of those 2 hours, you weren’t hungry the whole time anyway, only the last half hour
So you’re teaching yourself willpower over the course of an hour and a half
Jeff has actually dropped back a little bit to where he’s not necessarily doing 5 meals in a day now I’ll maybe do 4 But he has easy willpower
If you get hungry and you have a snack there, you don’t have to get through 4 hours of willpower (that you don’t have right now) to get to that lunchtime
You only have to get through 2 hours and of those 2 hours, you weren’t hungry the whole time anyway, only the last half hour
But he has easy willpower

A planned snack is enough to keep somebody more metabolically stable until the next meal, and it also starts to teach them the willpower to wait until the next meal

Walk me through a day in the life for you

Not on a day when you’re here and traveling. So you’re at home, your first meal is what time?

Jeff Cavaliere

7:30 or 8 o’clock
Usually it’s oatmeal and egg whites
His pumpkin oatmeal contains walnuts, Splenda brown sugar (or brown sugar if you don’t care about calories), and pumpkin mixed inside with whipped cream on top It tastes good and it’s something he actually enjoys He could never just eat boiled oatmeal for the rest of his life
It tastes good and it’s something he actually enjoys
He could never just eat boiled oatmeal for the rest of his life

Peter asks, “ And then egg whites because you’re just trying to cut the calories. You want the protein without the total calorie of the egg? ”

Yeah
He keeps frozen egg whites; he doesn’t want to start cracking full eggs
He’s a little bit simplistic when it comes to his nutrition; he knows what works for him
Although when he’s at a hotel, he’ll eat the prepared eggs
He has no problem mixing in 1 or 2 full eggs and thinks people should
With that, he’ll have either milk or a protein shake
They’re not small meals

That will take him through until lunchtime

Snack #1

In the past, he would’ve had another small snack Some pretzels, jerky, or something Some protein and then some carbohydrates, and then he’ll go to lunchtime
Some pretzels, jerky, or something
Some protein and then some carbohydrates, and then he’ll go to lunchtime

Lunch

Jeff’s preferred lunch is a grilled chicken wrap with vegetables and yogurt, and some fruit
Or he’ll have cereal and yogurt He’s still a cereal addict and we have lots of cereal choices, but he tries not to choose the Cinnamon Toast Crunch that his son prefers, and he’ll have something else
With lunch, he’ll have a protein shake
He’s still a cereal addict and we have lots of cereal choices, but he tries not to choose the Cinnamon Toast Crunch that his son prefers, and he’ll have something else

Peter asks, “ How much protein are you getting in that meal? ”

His protein shake is 30 g, plus the yogurt (another 8-12 g), and then there’s a little bit in the cereal and more in the milk too

He gets enough protein from that meal; it’s a little bit less preferential in terms of where the carbs come from

“ I don’t really get crazy about the carbs, I just try to pick lower sugar carbs. ”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

Snack #2

The afternoon snack would be the same type of thing as the first snack was
He likes jerky and some type of crunch food (a handful of pretzels would be easy for him)
He’ll have another protein shake after he trains He may train at 5:00 or randomly before he finishes up work Most often, he winds up having this shake and then trains late, late at night
He may train at 5:00 or randomly before he finishes up work
Most often, he winds up having this shake and then trains late, late at night

Peter notices, “ I think we have an input into the sleep issue .”

Jeff could fall asleep right after dinner
The issue for him is that when he gets home, his kids have been waiting to see him all day, and he makes himself available to them We play, we run, we go in the pool, whatever it might be, and then they go to bed a little bit late We have a busy household (including 4 dogs); it’s a lot to put everybody down, but they go to bed around 9:00, 9:30 P.M.
When he finally gets to the gym, it could be 10:30 P.M.
He doesn’t like to train on a full stomach (he hates the feeling), so he’ll opt to have his dinner afterwards
That means dinner could come at 11:30 P.M., sometimes even 12 o’clock at night That’s not recommended
But he thinks he could dispel the myth of: don’t eat after 6:00 at all Your body, especially if you’re carrying a good amount of muscle (which is why we want to) can utilize those calories, can utilize that protein, can utilize those carbs throughout the day, whenever they do come in Jeff doesn’t think that just magically eating after 6 P.M. is the death knell to having low body fat That’s not part of his equation
We play, we run, we go in the pool, whatever it might be, and then they go to bed a little bit late
We have a busy household (including 4 dogs); it’s a lot to put everybody down, but they go to bed around 9:00, 9:30 P.M.
That’s not recommended
Your body, especially if you’re carrying a good amount of muscle (which is why we want to) can utilize those calories, can utilize that protein, can utilize those carbs throughout the day, whenever they do come in
Jeff doesn’t think that just magically eating after 6 P.M. is the death knell to having low body fat
That’s not part of his equation

Peter points out, “ It might be impacting your sleep more than anything else. It’s clearly not impacting your fuel partitioning. ”

Jeff has been blessed to have the ability to hit the pillow and fall asleep within minutes and stay asleep
He doesn’t sleep very long (5-6 hours), but his quality of sleep is usually very high He doesn’t wake up at all He wakes up when it’s time to wake up in the morning
He doesn’t wake up at all
He wakes up when it’s time to wake up in the morning

Optimizing protein for every stage of life: quality, quantity, and guidelines for diverse diets and body types [A: 44:15, V: 47:33]

What type of guidance are you giving your patients on protein?

Is there any difference between men and women and are you differentiating it based on age?

Gabrielle Lyon

Age, yes
Men and women, no
When we talk about protein, typically we talk about one thing, but it’s 20 different amino acids, 9 of which are essential We actually eat for those nine essentials
There is a lot of nuance around protein in general
Each of those amino acids do something different; for example:
Leucine is critical for muscle, for muscle protein synthesis
Threonine is important for mucin production in the gut
We actually eat for those nine essentials

Why are we eating protein?

We need about 250 g a day We recycle much of that We don’t eat that
Maybe 75% of that goes towards visceral tissue for turnover and maintenance
Maybe 25% of that goes to muscle
We have to continue to get these essential amino acids so that we can maintain rebuilding and repairing
Which the efficiency of that changes as we age: anabolic resistance, protein efficiency decreases
We recycle much of that
We don’t eat that

Gabrielle makes 3 important points

1 – One reason why we need dietary protein just to maintain the tissue integrity and the structure
2 – Women and men do not need a different amount of protein; it’s is not sex-specific; it’s body weight-specific
3 – The minimum amount of protein Gabrielle would ever recommend would be 100 g for men or women

⇒ If you’re a 150 lb. woman and you’re following the RDA at 0.8 g/kg, that is 45 g of protein or so ‒ that’s not enough

Part of the failure there is that we have to recognize that protein is different amino acids, and so when we talk about muscle health, we need to get enough leucine to support muscle health and that is probably the recommendation is 2-3 g a day For optimal health, it’s probably around 8 or 9 g a day
For optimal health, it’s probably around 8 or 9 g a day

How do you get folks to think about that because now all of a sudden you get into dramatic differences in terms of protein source

Peter doesn’t think we should get into the PDCAAS , but it’s important to understand that foods are created differently [ episode #224 with Don Layman touched on this briefly after 41:15]
You can look at an ingredient label of something that says 30 g of protein, but they don’t list out the amino acids They don’t tell you that this one has more leucine or more methionine and this one doesn’t
[ episode #224 with Don Layman touched on this briefly after 41:15]
They don’t tell you that this one has more leucine or more methionine and this one doesn’t

⇒ Peter points out certain themes that we know: we know that dairy-derived protein, beef-derived protein, and egg-derived protein seem to have the highest amount of the more important amino acids

So when you’re saying to that person, “Hey, I want you to eat a minimum of 100 g per day,” does it come with the caveat of assuming you’re getting your protein sources here?

Gabrielle Lyon

What you’re pointing out is protein quality
There are plant sources of protein and there are animal sources of protein
Just from hard, fast biological numbers, we considered a high quality protein to be: eggs and dairy, fish, chicken (any of the animal source proteins)

⇒ The lower quality proteins would come from plants

Gabrielle shares, “ When we educate our patients in the practice, we have them choose, and we really don’t focus on plant proteins as a source of protein. While they do have amino acids, and certainly a combination is wonderful. We like to focus on plant foods for fiber. ”

Let’s say we take out soy
We really want to focus on high quality animal source foods because let’s say it makes up 30% of our diet

⇒ Nearly 100% of our calcium, our bioavailable iron and zinc, and selenium comes from the animal-based foods

We should also talk about nutrient quality

Whether someone decides to get their protein from plants or animals, it isn’t just about protein
It is also about those nutrients of concern For women, like bioavailable iron For kids, bioavailable iron Nutrients that primarily come from animal sources
For women, like bioavailable iron
For kids, bioavailable iron
Nutrients that primarily come from animal sources

Gabrielle emphasizes, “ I just think are really important, and again, nothing wrong with plant-based proteins, but we eat plants for fiber and phytonutrients. ”

Presumably you have some patients as I do who are vegetarians and in some cases it’s ethical, religious, whatever the reason is

Most vegetarians will at least be able to consume the dairy portion, but if you have someone who’s vegan and who is purely looking at animal sources of protein, how much of an uphill battle is that?

The challenge is the carbohydrate consumption
Gabrielle was listening to what Jeff was saying, and he was absolutely right He was saying that he has maybe 100 g of carbs and he have no problem with it
For someone like him who is super active, he’s able to dispose of those carbohydrates
He was saying that he has maybe 100 g of carbs and he have no problem with it

⇒ For a normal person, our carbohydrate threshold , if you calculate the disposal from skeletal muscle organ systems, it is not much: it is about 40 grams in a 2-hour period. Anything above, say 40 or 50 grams in a non-exercising adult will result in a robust insulin response

We do not want that

We do not want to be utilizing insulin to help support glucose; we want to use activity or have the health of our skeletal muscle be able to balance that

What we’re talking about is carbohydrates, and unless you are highly active (like Jeff), then we also have to think about the carb portion of this and designing a diet

⇒ Typically, for us, we think a lot about a one-to-one ratio of protein to carbs at a meal (depending)

Peter thinks about that in himself

That’s pretty tough
You have to be pretty deliberate about withholding carbohydrates
He’s probably eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight, so it’s not like he’s skimping on protein
Gabrielle points out that he’s metabolically healthy That goes back to this hierarchy of how we determine protein Peter agrees, “ I think you have a longer leash if you’re active .”
That goes back to this hierarchy of how we determine protein
Peter agrees, “ I think you have a longer leash if you’re active .”

Gabrielle explains, “ When we make protein decisions in the practice when we’re designing a diet, [the hierarchy involves] it’s age, it’s activity, and it’s metabolic health. ”

If you are metabolically healthy, then you can tolerate [more carbohydrates], there’s no problem
Carbs aren’t the enemy, but once we find out someone is metabolically unhealthy (which you can see from blood work) You don’t change your protein amount because as you restrict calories, you keep protein the same or higher because you must protect lean tissue and also it’s better We’ve seen this in the data
You don’t change your protein amount because as you restrict calories, you keep protein the same or higher because you must protect lean tissue and also it’s better
We’ve seen this in the data

Case study #3: a man who is overweight (250 lbs.)

Let’s assume you did a DEXA on this guy (although you don’t need to, you can look at him) This guy is carrying way too much fat The DEXA just gives you some numbers: 40% body fat
This guy is carrying way too much fat
The DEXA just gives you some numbers: 40% body fat

When you’re trying to tell him how much protein to eat, are you doing it based on an ideal body weight or are you doing it based on his 250 lbs. that he’s carrying around?

Gabrielle Lyon

His target body weight
Let’s say you’re targeting him for 16% body fat, her approach would be to calculate how much lean tissue he would have and what would be his ideal body weight at 16% body fat

The advantages of unilateral lower-body training over heavy bilateral lifts: impact on strength, athleticism, recovery, and functional movement [A: 51:45, V: 56:05]

Peter wants to pivot and talk about something that Mike brought up earlier
This speaks to how these round tables get totally messy because he’s not done with nutrition (he’ll come back to it)
This is a topic of unilateral lower extremity training A topic near and dear to Peter’s heart
A topic near and dear to Peter’s heart

Peter provides the context for this

When Peter grew up, power lifting was one of the things he did on the side It wasn’t a sport
Boxing was his life
He was hooked on being in the gym The gym he belonged to was an old man dungeon: 2 stories underground with no windows He didn’t realize how lucky he was at the time, but this happened to be the power lifting epicenter You basically just had a bunch of middle-aged men who were machines Everybody could bench press 2x their body weight, squat 3x their body weight, deadlift 4x their body weight That’s what Peter grew up doing
Peter was like, “ We bench, we squat, we deadlift, and we do it really, really heavy. ”
Not surprisingly, over time he started to get injured He injured his back by the time he was in medical school and kind of decided, “ I don’t know if this is worth the risk anymore. ” He didn’t see the need to have 4 plates on his back squatting anymore
It wasn’t a sport
The gym he belonged to was an old man dungeon: 2 stories underground with no windows
He didn’t realize how lucky he was at the time, but this happened to be the power lifting epicenter
You basically just had a bunch of middle-aged men who were machines Everybody could bench press 2x their body weight, squat 3x their body weight, deadlift 4x their body weight That’s what Peter grew up doing
Everybody could bench press 2x their body weight, squat 3x their body weight, deadlift 4x their body weight
That’s what Peter grew up doing
He injured his back by the time he was in medical school and kind of decided, “ I don’t know if this is worth the risk anymore. ”
He didn’t see the need to have 4 plates on his back squatting anymore

Almost through necessity, Peter had to discover single-leg training

I want you [Mike] to say more about that experience, help somebody, because I have patients who really can’t believe that you can achieve optimal lower body hypertrophy without a barbell on your back or without picking a barbell up off the floor

Mike Boyle

Mike had the same background as Peter
He got into competitive power lifting in college
He was no longer an athlete and he was looking for an outlet and it was like, “ Okay, I’m good at lifting weights. ” So he started competing in power lifting He started hurting himself: back problem, shoulder surgery
With his athletic training background, he got to college as a strength coach and started to see the same things He’s got athletes with back problems
So he started competing in power lifting
He started hurting himself: back problem, shoulder surgery
He’s got athletes with back problems

⇒ Everybody’s back problem seems to come down to one thing, back squatting (not the deadlift)

We were the old school squat, bench, power clean because that was the football mentality at that time
But the people with back pain, it always related to the back squat
Mike started to look at that and think, “ Okay, if we’re doing something that we know is hurting 20% of our population, should we continue to do that? ”
For a while we had to because the football coaches mandated it, but when he got to the point where he was fully in control, he said, “ We’re not going to do this anymore. ” And then we went the unilateral route
And then we went the unilateral route

Peter asks, “ When you say football coaches, are you saying even at the level of the NFL? ”

At every level
The football coaches want to know how many guys can bench press 400 lbs. and how many guys can squat 500 lbs. It’s still a very old-school mentality It’s getting better (especially the NFL level)
Everybody’s still benching, and still benching 225 as a strength test
They do an endurance test for strength
We could talk about the foolishness of the Combine too The same Combine that Mike helped train people for
It’s still a very old-school mentality
It’s getting better (especially the NFL level)
The same Combine that Mike helped train people for

Mike always tells people, “ It’s like getting a copy of the SAT and all you got to do is cheat. Got to practice the event, practice the questions, you know the answers, practice, you’ll get good at it. We developed that thought process. ”

We started going just down this unilateral rabbit hole
The biggest thing that people have to understand is when you get into the bilateral deficit research, you are stronger on one leg

⇒ You have more strength capability on 1 leg than you do on 2

Peter points out, “ It’s so interesting how difficult it is to appreciate that when you’re not doing unilateral exercises. ”

Mike Boyle

People don’t try it
And then it’s very dogma-oriented because we’ve all grown up around the squat poems and all these things about, “ King of all lifts, ” and all this bullshit that people spout Mike is always spouting the anti of that
The reality is when we first started testing, what happened was one of his assistants (this guy Jeff Oliver, who’s been at Holy Cross for 25 years) said to him, “ If we could test one-legged strength, would you stop squatting? ”
Mike was like, “ Yes. ”
So then they figured out how to test We started making up these half-assed one-leg squat tests doing rep maxes in different split squat variations and things
Mike is always spouting the anti of that
We started making up these half-assed one-leg squat tests doing rep maxes in different split squat variations and things

When tested one-legged strength, the results blew us away in terms of the ability to be stronger than we were (or as strong as we were) bilaterally

The first year Mike did it with his hockey team (2000, maybe ‘06), everybody could split squat what they could front squat (the same amount) So if he did a back split squat test, everybody that could back split squat 300 lbs. was a 300 lbs. front squatter Everybody that could back split squat, project out to a 400 lb. max, was a 400 front squatter, right across the board It was exactly dead, even one leg to two legs
Then people would say, that’s because they’re using their back leg They were trying to come up with all these rationales for why it wasn’t, but the numbers were just glaring
Then we went to a split squat test and we had one kid who did 240 lbs. for 20 reps The bilateral equivalent is 480, 420 lbs. He’s a 200, 190 lb. hockey player
The numbers started to smack us in the face a little bit
Then you look at the grip strength research, bilateral deficit: right-hand plus left hand will be more than a combined two-hand
So if he did a back split squat test, everybody that could back split squat 300 lbs. was a 300 lbs. front squatter
Everybody that could back split squat, project out to a 400 lb. max, was a 400 front squatter, right across the board
It was exactly dead, even one leg to two legs
They were trying to come up with all these rationales for why it wasn’t, but the numbers were just glaring
The bilateral equivalent is 480, 420 lbs.
He’s a 200, 190 lb. hockey player

Mike’s theory is that we neurologically know that we are unilateral

If he said to you, “Try to dunk a basketball,” he’s going to guarantee you’re going to jump off your left foot, you’re going to hold the ball in your right hand Everybody here is going to do it, except 10% of us are lefty, so 10% of us are going to grab it in our left hand
If he says to you, “ Throw a baseball ”…
Everybody here is going to do it, except 10% of us are lefty, so 10% of us are going to grab it in our left hand

We understand neurologically and then we deny it when we start strength training (because we want to deny it), and it’s actually limiting

Mike has said to people, “ I think I spent a lot of time probably making people less athletic. ”

In the past he had some of his super elite NFL wide receiver type guys who would be very resistant to really heavy back squats and deadlifts and things like that They would always say (they were like cats), “ I don’t like it. I don’t like it. It makes my back sore. I don’t feel right. ”
They would always say (they were like cats), “ I don’t like it. I don’t like it. It makes my back sore. I don’t feel right. ”

⇒ And what you realize is you are probably dampening their nervous system

Mike’s analogy

If you think The Mountain , the guy from Game of Thrones [shown below]
He was an Icelandic basketball player, decent mid-level player

When he became one of the world’s strongest men, he was a worse basketball player

Figure 2. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson as Gregor Clegane (or The Mountain) in the Game of Thrones . Image credit: Wikipedia

Mike used to go to power lifting meets and he’d be like, “ Nobody here looks athletic, no one .”
Then he’d go to an Olympic lifting meet and he’d be like, “ Ooh, these cats are athletic. They can jump and they can sprint, and they’ve got big traps and big asses .” They looked more like what he wanted my athletes to look like
Whereas power lifting, it was sort of like a semi-mobile refrigerator imitation Just people lumbering
Then you go to a track meet and go watch the sprints and the jumps and you’re like, “ Oh, wait, that’s what I want. That’s what I’m trying to get everybody to .”
So Mike became a big Charlie Francis guy in the ’90s, he started looking at how the fastest people in the world, how the people that jump the highest in the world, are training You started to see more unilateral plyo work, unilateral strength work It was sort of this rabbit hole that he went down and never came back from
They looked more like what he wanted my athletes to look like
Just people lumbering
You started to see more unilateral plyo work, unilateral strength work
It was sort of this rabbit hole that he went down and never came back from

Peter points out that a lot of people don’t realize Charlie Francis’s coaching genius

A lot of people will have a negative thought associated with him because of the association with Ben Johnson
Sadly he passed away kind of young due to cancer

Can you say a little bit more about Charlie?

He was someone in the field that Mike would have liked to meet
He developed world-class sprinters in Canada, almost all of them from the greater Toronto area The probability of doing that is really, really low
He was so far ahead of his time
If you read Charlie Francis Training System right now, he’s talking about recovery, regeneration, massage It was originally published as Charlie Francis training system Then after he got in trouble, they republished it as Training For Speed (it’s the same book)
This book was written in the ’80s, but you would read it right now and think, “ My God, this thing was written a month ago. ”
He was using words Mike hadn’t even seen yet
The probability of doing that is really, really low
It was originally published as Charlie Francis training system
Then after he got in trouble, they republished it as Training For Speed (it’s the same book)

⇒ That’s when he started to do massage work with his athletes; that’s when he started foam rolling

Because he realized he couldn’t get massage for all of his athletes, but he could get everybody to foam roll
He was always talking about tissue quality and tissue resets, and they would bring therapists to training camps that they were doing
It was so forward-thinking
That was 35 years ago, right?
He was so far ahead of the field frighteningly to the point where it still encouraged people to read his stuff

Mike read everything Charlie Francis wrote

He read Speed Trap , which was more about what had happened to them in the process
[Then he read Running Risks by] Angela Issajenko, who was one of his sprinters
Mike just read everything he could consume about Charlie Francis to see: is there another little nugget of something that I’m missing from the track and field thing

Then we started to look at rehab and we realized that from a rehab standpoint, it was all unilateral and it was all what they were calling “functional” (or “closed chain”)

And suddenly, it all made sense
So we’ve been doing [unilateral training] for 30 years

Rethinking heavy squats and deadlifts: risk-reward, aging bodies, and the case for reverse lunges and other single-leg alternatives [A:1:01:15, V: 1:06:59]

Jeff, in your world, training people the way you are, what are the exceptions to those rules for you?

Are there times when you still see that the risk reward trade-off for someone in a certain position is there for a barbell back squat or a sumo deadlift or something like that?

Jeff Cavaliere

There’s the argument that people have already learned bad mechanics for squats that are going to totally break down their body by continuing to pile more and more weight on Especially in Mike’s world
When you can intervene with somebody at an early age and teach them biomechanically how to squat better It’s a complicated lift; it’s not easy to dissect that lift There’s a lot of moving parts You have to be willing to spend a lot of time with that person to teach them from the ground up
In those instances when you can, could probably teach somebody how to squat more safely
That doesn’t take away the fact that if you can do it and not have to load that way, then the benefits might still outweigh the risks in terms of is this better than a single-leg squat Especially as we talk about the aging population
Especially in Mike’s world
It’s a complicated lift; it’s not easy to dissect that lift
There’s a lot of moving parts
You have to be willing to spend a lot of time with that person to teach them from the ground up
Especially as we talk about the aging population

You can probably teach that lift, but you have to be willing to teach that person to either unlearn the bad things that they’ve already learned, or if they’re starting out early, learn how to do it more properly

And you could do it in stages to: by squatting to a box , you can biomechanically fix a lot of people’s issues because having the target (or the safety net) behind them is enough to get them to move in a better way

⇒ But you don’t want to train that way without ultimately going to a freestanding squat if they’re going to be ultimately playing sports

Playing sports and needing needing to do something like let’s say an offensive lineman coming off the line

Jeff is actually in Mike’s camp in terms of the value of single-leg training

“ It’s how we’re wired, how we are actually preferred to move .”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff does so much single-leg training with ATHLEAN-X because he believes that it’s not just the unloading that we get from the single-leg squat
Anytime you pick up a leg from the ground, it’s functional training

⇒ Jeff built a whole program with the Mets around step-ups and lunging because we knew how important that was

Jeff did other forms of bilateral lifting

We would do trap bar dead lifting to clean up some of the issues that people had

Jeff explains, “ If you want to learn how to squat, take a dumbbell, hold it between your hands or kettlebell and just let the dumbbell, the weight go straight down to the ground. It will put you biomechanically in almost a perfect position because you’re just letting the weight drop straight down your center of mass. (That’s a great tool for teaching what people it’s supposed to feel like) ”

But when you then go put the bar on their back, as soon as they don’t have thoracic mobility, all the things that they’re lacking start to change that dramatically You think it’s the same exercise because you’re going straight up and down But it’s a very different exercise because now when your hands are up, and again, thoracic extension is more required, they don’t have that and the whole system gets thrown out of whack
It’s still done in certain circumstances, and you’re always going to still encounter people who insist that they still have to squat and they want to learn how to do it and do it more safely Having the willingness or the ability to still coach them through that is important
You think it’s the same exercise because you’re going straight up and down
But it’s a very different exercise because now when your hands are up, and again, thoracic extension is more required, they don’t have that and the whole system gets thrown out of whack
Having the willingness or the ability to still coach them through that is important

Hopefully because of guys like Mike and stuff that Jeff talks about, people are less reliant on those [squats] as the only things that they can do

Peter is a little conflicted about squats and deadlifts

Up until about 18 months ago, Peter was still squatting and dead lifting regularly though with much less weight He was never going below 5 reps and frankly targeting 8-12 most of the time
His rationale for it: he viewed it as an amazing audit of his chain He filmed every set (he has a tripod in the gym, and his phone would sit on it from the warm-up set to the last set) His recovery was watching the video
The truth of the matter is, despite that, about 1 in every 8 workouts, he just screwed something up, and he would spend the next 4 days in pain He’d be sitting in the shower running hot water on his back Was it anything catastrophic? No, not at all His erectors just flared up; it wasn’t the end of the world
He was never going below 5 reps and frankly targeting 8-12 most of the time
He filmed every set (he has a tripod in the gym, and his phone would sit on it from the warm-up set to the last set)
His recovery was watching the video
He’d be sitting in the shower running hot water on his back
Was it anything catastrophic? No, not at all
His erectors just flared up; it wasn’t the end of the world

What it said to Peter was (people watching us might be offended by the statement) “I’m getting old. I’m getting old.”

“ All of us would agree, the name of the game when you’re old is never getting out of the game. ”‒ Peter Attia

It’s one thing to get injured when you’re 20, you’re going to be back
But if a 55-year-old, never mind a 70-year-old, has to take a year off because of some devastating injury, it’s really difficult to come back
And so Peter very sadly decided that the risk that he was going to do something dumb…

The straw that broke the camel’s back

Peter used to do a lot of tire flipping , he used to have this 450 lb. tire
His absolute favorite activity was there were different games you would play How many times could you flip it? How long did it take you to flip it 25 times
When he moved to Austin, he didn’t have his tire (it was out in San Diego)
So he has his assistant call and find a guy who could find the closest tire to 450 lbs. He found one that was 407 lbs.
The guy delivered; he’s like, “ What the hell do you want this thing for? ”
Peter started flipping it again, and his friend goes, “ Have you ever hurt yourself doing that? ” Peter said, “ Never .” He goes, “ You are in a remarkable amount of lumbar flexion right now, and I would just be careful. The lumbar spine does not like to be in this position when it is that loaded. ”
Peter realized that he was right He can absolutely see how under fatigue, he could just do something too much
How many times could you flip it?
How long did it take you to flip it 25 times
He found one that was 407 lbs.
Peter said, “ Never .”
He goes, “ You are in a remarkable amount of lumbar flexion right now, and I would just be careful. The lumbar spine does not like to be in this position when it is that loaded. ”
He can absolutely see how under fatigue, he could just do something too much

The point was, Peter basically decided the risk-reward trade-off wasn’t there for him

As much as he loves this exercise, as much as it’s: a great audit, he’s learning, he loves the idea of critiquing his form between sets

Do you think that’s a mistake? Do you think that I should have stuck with it and made other modifications?

Jeff Cavaliere

⇒ Jeff doesn’t think there’s a compromise in the benefits you’re getting from single-leg training (you’re probably getting more benefits from that)

Jeff is in the same boat; probably from age 35-45
He has bad knees That probably comes from his flat feet
Wanting so badly to not have to squat because every time he did, it would kill The next day his knees would be horrifyingly in pain And his lower back would ultimately wind up taking on that same brunt (he knows exactly the same spot Peter is talking about)
Yet he kept telling himself, “ You have to squat. It’s just what we do .”
That probably comes from his flat feet
The next day his knees would be horrifyingly in pain
And his lower back would ultimately wind up taking on that same brunt (he knows exactly the same spot Peter is talking about)

It wasn’t until he watched Mike and others say, “ It’s not a requirement to get what I’m trying to get out of it .”

⇒ Squatting isn’t a requirement to get leg hypertrophy, stronger hips

“ I’m trying to get stronger hips. I’m trying to stay injury-free.” And so, my favorite exercise at that point became a reverse lunge .”‒ Jeff Cavaliere

He’ll do a reverse lunge with a barbell or with dumbbells It’s a little easier with the barbell because you don’t have to worry about the grip of holding the dumbbells [Jeff explains proper technique in this video ]
It’s a little easier with the barbell because you don’t have to worry about the grip of holding the dumbbells
[Jeff explains proper technique in this video ]

Peter asks, “ So reverse lunge, meaning you’re starting in a standing position and you’re doing a step back? ”

Step backward, step backward
Peter has seen a great video where Jeff emphasizes how wide he’s stepping out This is where some of the functional training stuff comes up People will say that’s a balance exercise not a strength exercise
This is where some of the functional training stuff comes up
People will say that’s a balance exercise not a strength exercise

Jeff explains, “ It’s not a balance exercise. If you can’t keep your feet wide enough, all you have to do is just step back and out. You’ll maintain a wide enough base where you still have support, and then it’s a strength exercise. ”

Jeff’s second big tip on that exercise

He calls it screwing yourself into place (but you’re really not)

As you go down, you take just a little bit of a rotation towards the front leg

You take your torso a little bit over the front leg
This will basically stabilize that front leg a little bit more
When you’re doing a reverse split, it’s about 75% on the front leg
So you’ve still got 25% going back on the back leg, and that’s enough to support you and make sure you’re not falling all over the place
Lunging forward is fine, but people that have knee issues, that doesn’t feel too good either, so why not do it this way?

This is a safer way that has less orthopedic issues for people ‒ the reverse lunge is Jeff’s favorite substitute

Adapting with age: Gabrielle on injuries, hip dysplasia, and the shift to smarter training [A: 1:10:15, V: 1:17:56]

Gabrielle wishes should could say she gets less hurt

Earlier today she mentioned she has a right torn hamstring It’s a proximal and quad fem (which is very unusual), glut med and glute min
She loves to overachieve, and about 8 years ago, she thought it was a great idea to keep up with her husband He’s a former SEAL who’s now a Baylor
She thought they would do a 50-hour event, and she was not physically capable (or prepared) to do that
For him, it’s just another Tuesday
It’s a proximal and quad fem (which is very unusual), glut med and glute min
He’s a former SEAL who’s now a Baylor

She tore her left hamstring on a sprint, and since that time it’s changed her ability to squat

She kept going back to the squat, but she’s not able to do that at all now

Gabrielle stopped squatting 6 months ago

She also found out that she has hip dysplasia
Gabrielle’s advice for the listener, “ If something doesn’t feel right to you…[listen] ”
Jeff talks about taking that wide step back

She had been squatting in a much too narrow position for someone that has hip dysplasia, and so she ground out her hip

She’s somewhat stubborn and just kept doing it because she believed that we should squat

Needless to say, she’s now in a position where she is only doing single-leg movements and really trying to pull back

She will probably be doing some PRP for this injury

Gabrielle agrees with Peter, “ The worst thing that you can do is stop. ”She thinks about Doug Paddon-Jones’s work, the Catabolic Crisis Model [illustrated in the figure below]

Figure 3. The catabolic crisis model . Image credit: T he Journal of Nutrition 2023

The catabolic crisis model is when you’re off the table [not training], you lose muscle mass and strength rapidly, and that continues per decade

Gabrielle’s training has changed dramatically

She does more high intensity on the bike or the air dyne versus any kind of long, slow, steady state (which I would love to get back into), and then also the lifts

Peter asks, “ So you’re able to do high intensity stuff on a bike with a high hamstring tear? ”

This is new
She just got her MRI back 2 days ago
She won’t be able to, but this is her plan when she’s recovered

How is this going to change your training (once you’re recovered) going forward, and how will that impact what you modify in terms of your patients?

Peter points out that they are all practitioners, and they are students, “ We do a lot of self experimenting. We make a lot of mistakes on ourselves .”
That gets them curious about the lessons that can be learned How to make sure clients/patients don’t make the same mistakes
How to make sure clients/patients don’t make the same mistakes

Gabrielle Lyon

⇒ It doesn’t have to be these big lifts; we don’t all have to squat

Prior to this recent injury, Gabrielle was starting to do more unilateral work And she will go back to this
She was also being much more particular about form
And she will go back to this

“ As lifelong exercisers, we can compensate a lot. People that are somewhat athletic compensate very well. ”‒ Gabrielle Lyon

Gabrielle has to hold herself to a much higher standard, otherwise she knows she will continue to get injured
Also she wants to add in more Zone 2

Peter remembers

A trainer showing him videos of incredible athletes doing workouts, and he was pointing out all the horrible mistakes they were making
The point was, they’re not great athletes because of how they’re training They can get away with training that way because they are such great athletes
They can get away with training that way because they are such great athletes

How much did you see that, Mike, when you were training pros?

Mike Boyle

He literally just wrote down, “ The better the athlete, the better the compensator. ”
Jeff adds, “‘ Masters of Compensation’ is what we used to call it. ”
Mike used to look at these guys and think, “ My God, it’s amazing what they can get away with at that level .”

Back to squats ‒ Mike’s analogy

If you substituted slamming your hand in a car door for squatting, and then had the same conversation with yourself saying, “ Hey, I just hurt my hand, I slammed it in the car door, and I can’t wait till my fingers heal up because I’m going to go back and slam my hand in the car door ”
Peter and Gabrielle agree, “ We’ve all done that .”
That’s why Mike wrote the article , because people do it all the time
Peter thinks the analogy is more like: I love slamming the car door because I love the noise, but I like to also reach in the car when I’m doing it And normally, it’s fine, but on every 8th slam… Oh
Mike might edit the article for that and say, “ Okay, even if it was only every eighth time you did it, would you go back and slam the car door eight more times? You wouldn’t. ” No, that’s absolutely stupid The risk-reward doesn’t work
But for some reason squatting has such a visceral attachment in strength and conditioning (it’s religious)
And normally, it’s fine, but on every 8th slam… Oh
No, that’s absolutely stupid
The risk-reward doesn’t work

Jeff Cavaliere

Exercises like “ the clean ” don’t have that type of religion
Everyone can relate to the squat, so there’s the attachment The squat is something we do every day, every time we get out of a chair, every time we go to the bathroom
The squat is something we do every day, every time we get out of a chair, every time we go to the bathroom

Peter points out, “ People are confusing a goblet squat or effectively a sumo deadlift with a goblet, which is, it’s all the same hip hinge. They’re confusing that with this. This is the unnatural part, I think. ”

Mike Boyle

Mike teaches everybody to goblet squat and sumo deadlift
People argue for the squat: you got to be able to go to the bathroom Mike points out that you’re not going to piggyback someone [onto the toilet] ‒ that’s not how it’s going to work
Mike points out that you’re not going to piggyback someone [onto the toilet] ‒ that’s not how it’s going to work

⇒ You only need to be able to body weight squat

“ Once you can body weight squat, you’re good. Let’s do unilateral stuff for loading. ”‒ Mike Boyle

People ask, “ What’s an adult? What’s an athlete? ”

Mike makes it simple, “ An adult has a job that does not involve playing sports .”
Mike was doing a presentation for Perform Better , one of the things he said, “ Pickleball players aren’t athletes .”
People that are adult recreational athletes, they’re not athletes because if they get hurt, if you get hurt at 50 or 60, it’s really debilitating You don’t heal Even the rate of healing, you’re seeing that now The rate of healing is totally different
Mike looks at his son and his friends, they’ll get hurt, and 2 days later, they’ll be like, “ I’m fine. ”
He looks at them and thinks, “ I’d be six months crippled if I did what you did .”
People don’t see this change
You don’t heal
Even the rate of healing, you’re seeing that now
The rate of healing is totally different

Mike’s analogy, “ Life is this gradual transition of filet mignon to beef jerky. Right? And I’m in the beef jerky stage of life, firmly in the beef jerky stage of life. ”

Peter jokes, “ I’m thinking I’m a New York strip at the moment, just getting a little firmer. ”

“ The number one cause of injury in old men is thinking they’re young men .”‒ Michael Boyle

Figure 4. Michael’s advice . Image credit: Instagram

When people ask Micheal should they squat? Should they deadlift?
He always says, “ No .”
The problem with that is when you start letting people do these things, you then have to become the ringmaster in the circus
He just eliminated the events If nobody squats and deadlifts in our adult program, then we’re just better off
With his professional athletes, he had one guy in the Red Sox who squatted He insisted after Mike really fought with everybody about it, every single guy except one He was a pitcher that looked like a linebacker ‒ he looked like Brian Urlacher
The college kids he works with have to squat because Mike wants them to be able to go back to school and his college weight room and participate in the program the way they’re supposed to participate
If nobody squats and deadlifts in our adult program, then we’re just better off
He insisted after Mike really fought with everybody about it, every single guy except one
He was a pitcher that looked like a linebacker ‒ he looked like Brian Urlacher

Peter feels like people don’t appreciate the nuance of what Mike is saying

That it can easily be turned into, “ Mike thinks no one should squat. ”

What you’re saying is there is a threshold, a risk-reward trade-off

Peter agrees with this idea that if you’re not getting paid to play a sport, you have to reconsider how you’re treating that sport

Exercises that belong in the “iron graveyard”: unnecessarily risky exercises and their safer alternatives [A: 1:19:15, V: 1:27:28]

Jeff Cavaliere

It’s also not as if the alternatives are sacrifices in terms of what they’re delivering

Jeff talks about the “iron graveyard”

There’s a few exercises that just belong in there
One of them is the upright row (it’s a garbage exercise) The way that old school taught how to do the lift: you hold the barbell and you lift it up here up under your chin, your elbows are much higher than your wrists are You’ve got lots of weight usually on the exercise Fully pushing your arms down to internal rotation
As a physical therapist, the funny thing about that is that that position is literally the test that we would put somebody in to try to see if they have impingement in their shoulder We would put them in this position, push down, if it gets a lot of pain in there, likely something’s getting pinched (supraspinatus tendon, something)
Jeff did that exercise for 40 years He never got hurt on it
He wants you to do something called a high pull Drop your elbows lower than your wrists By doing that, now instead of internally rotating the shoulder, I’m externally rotating the shoulder I’m still working my delts I’m still working my traps I get zero sacrifice of what I’m trying to do the exercise for in the first place, and I eliminate the part that I don’t like He doesn’t care if you haven’t gotten hurt, but ultimately doing it over and over and over again, can potentially cause a problem down the road Even just the potential of it He’s not saying that you can’t get injured on any exercise ‒ you can On this exercise, I’m lowering the risk and not sacrificing the benefit
When Mike talks about squatting, the fact is if you can do something that’s giving you a better or even equal benefit and it takes away some of those downsides to the exercise (especially as the population who’s performing it is less appropriate to be performing the exercise and more appropriate to be doing the alternative), what’s the whole point?
The way that old school taught how to do the lift: you hold the barbell and you lift it up here up under your chin, your elbows are much higher than your wrists are
You’ve got lots of weight usually on the exercise
Fully pushing your arms down to internal rotation
We would put them in this position, push down, if it gets a lot of pain in there, likely something’s getting pinched (supraspinatus tendon, something)
He never got hurt on it
Drop your elbows lower than your wrists
By doing that, now instead of internally rotating the shoulder, I’m externally rotating the shoulder
I’m still working my delts
I’m still working my traps
I get zero sacrifice of what I’m trying to do the exercise for in the first place, and I eliminate the part that I don’t like
He doesn’t care if you haven’t gotten hurt, but ultimately doing it over and over and over again, can potentially cause a problem down the road
Even just the potential of it He’s not saying that you can’t get injured on any exercise ‒ you can
On this exercise, I’m lowering the risk and not sacrificing the benefit
He’s not saying that you can’t get injured on any exercise ‒ you can

Gabrielle Lyon

It makes her think about: How do we re-educate people?
Because we’ve all suffered from these narratives of, “ You have to squat, you have to deadlift, ” and it’s similar to nutrition

Gabrielle asks, “ Do you think there’s a way that we re-educate getting to our youth potentially so the younger that we can educate, the less likely we’re going to have adults in their 50s having to have serious injuries? ”

And then, Mike, you wouldn’t have to have this conversation about no more squatting

Mike Boyle

No
Mike think’s we’re doing it right [in this podcast[

“ The ability to mass produce this and to have people hear it and see it is something that we weren’t really able to do before. ”‒ Mike Boyle

Mike talked about the fact when he was a kid coming up, he had to wait for the new Strength & Health and Ironman to come out to the news stand (he waited and he visited the daily news stand) Peter remembers, “ We lived by these magazines. ” Because that was our only connection to the training world
And now, you’ve got 14 million subscribers on YouTube
Someone asked Mike, “ What’s the greatest thing you’ve seen, or the greatest change in strength and conditioning? ” He said, “ The computer. ” They were like, “ What do you mean? ” He said, “ There was no computer. ”
Peter remembers, “ We lived by these magazines. ”
Because that was our only connection to the training world
He said, “ The computer. ”
They were like, “ What do you mean? ” He said, “ There was no computer. ”

Now with podcasts and YouTube, we can educate people

But our problem is that we copy dumb people
There’s too many dummies on the internet and not enough people
In his old age, Mike has taken to calling out the bullshit Sometimes he’ll just say on Twitter, “ That’s a bad take. ” Because if you don’t, then people get to establish themselves as experts because
This is the loudest voice situation now in terms of who’s going to influence, and now there’s a lot of AI
If you look at Twitter’s got all these AI things going that are showing people, and sometimes Mike will just write, “Total garbage,” It shouldn’t be on the internet; it shouldn’t be anywhere
Peter agrees, “ We need that. ”
Sometimes he’ll just say on Twitter, “ That’s a bad take. ”
Because if you don’t, then people get to establish themselves as experts because
It shouldn’t be on the internet; it shouldn’t be anywhere

Jeff, give us a couple more things in the “iron graveyard”

Jeff Cavaliere

[1 – The upright row , discussed earlier]
2 – The Cuban press for the same reason When the elbows go up and the arms come down and then press from there It’s an unnecessary adaptation that we don’t need
3 – The chest fly He puts the unsupported bench fly in the graveyard simply because of his history of working with pitchers and knowing how susceptible the shoulder caps that can become from chronic over-stretching and then we apply a load in that position at the same time
A fly machine is much, much safer
We’ll do a floor fly ‒ we’re getting the eccentric overload The benefit of a floor fly is that you’re going to have the safety net of being on the floor If I’m doing the exercise because I like the eccentric overload, I can actually apply a little bit more weight, a little bit more eccentric stress to the chest The benefit of the exercise is the stretch of the exercise I can apply a heavier load but in a much safer way, and my shoulders aren’t going to be vulnerable
But because the chest fly is an Arnold favorite and it’s an Arnold Classic Jeff believes he tore his pec once on the fly, so it had repercussions for him too
When the elbows go up and the arms come down and then press from there
It’s an unnecessary adaptation that we don’t need
He puts the unsupported bench fly in the graveyard simply because of his history of working with pitchers and knowing how susceptible the shoulder caps that can become from chronic over-stretching and then we apply a load in that position at the same time
The benefit of a floor fly is that you’re going to have the safety net of being on the floor
If I’m doing the exercise because I like the eccentric overload, I can actually apply a little bit more weight, a little bit more eccentric stress to the chest
The benefit of the exercise is the stretch of the exercise
I can apply a heavier load but in a much safer way, and my shoulders aren’t going to be vulnerable
Jeff believes he tore his pec once on the fly, so it had repercussions for him too

Nothing is in Jeff’s graveyard that doesn’t have an alternative that’s equally good

The only reason why he would throw an exercise into that category is become there’s something that could be done to eliminate some of the risk and still delivers [benefits] just as good

The downside of early sports specialization in children and the long-term benefits of encouraging kids to play multiple sports [A: 1:25:00, V: 1:34:03]

Peter has 3 kids, they all love playing sports
One of them in particular (the youngest) has taken a real love of baseball; he just turned 8 about a month ago
Peter grew up never playing baseball It wasn’t a sport that was particularly popular where he grew up
Peter has now become obsessed with baseball He can really fully understand how people can get obsessed with this sport It’s not just the numbers and the data There’s so much art in nuance in learning about all these different pitches and how they hold the ball and all this kind of stuff
We live in a world now where coaches want kids to specialize earlier and earlier
They’re playing 3 seasons a year in baseball right now: fall ball, spring ball, there’s this little summer ball tournament
The kids are playing one position now
It wasn’t a sport that was particularly popular where he grew up
He can really fully understand how people can get obsessed with this sport
It’s not just the numbers and the data
There’s so much art in nuance in learning about all these different pitches and how they hold the ball and all this kind of stuff

Peter was a little bit surprised at the end of his 7-year-old season that most kids have a position coach outside of the team

Peter’s intuition is that just doesn’t make sense

Tell me what you guys think of that

Mike replies, “ Do you have a soapbox available for me to jump up on? ”

Mike Boyle

Follow the money Most of these people that are telling you that kids need year-round sports are making their living from year-round sports
If you look at what most professional athletes are doing, they’re not doing that with their kids
If you look at what most coaches are doing, they’re not doing that with their kids
What you usually find is some entrepreneur who has developed Joe’s Baseball and he needs income year-round because he doesn’t have Joe’s Baseball and Lacrosse
He just says, “ Joe’s Baseball. ” So as a result, they start telling you, they start giving you that early specialization myth They start using words like development and exposure
Most of these people that are telling you that kids need year-round sports are making their living from year-round sports
They start using words like development and exposure

No, that’s bad information

⇒ Mike’s advice for an 8-year-old who really likes baseball: #1 make him do something else besides baseball

Mike’s daughter was a full scholarship ice hockey player (very, very good); she played a year in the Women’s professional league She had a scholarship when she was 15 years old
Mike didn’t let her play in a summer tournament until she was 13 People would ask him why all the time, and ask what she was doing She was going to the lake, she was going to water ski, she was going to be on the swim team She took up diving one summer because they needed a diver, and she became the U12 diver because the guy saw her throwing herself off the diving board and said, “ Oh, she’s fearless. I’ll teach her to dive. ” It was a couple hours a week He made her play soccer She did judo and was the state judo champion when she was 12
She had a scholarship when she was 15 years old
People would ask him why all the time, and ask what she was doing
She was going to the lake, she was going to water ski, she was going to be on the swim team
She took up diving one summer because they needed a diver, and she became the U12 diver because the guy saw her throwing herself off the diving board and said, “ Oh, she’s fearless. I’ll teach her to dive. ” It was a couple hours a week
He made her play soccer
She did judo and was the state judo champion when she was 12
It was a couple hours a week

Mike adds, “ The kids that are better athletes do better in the long run.”

When kids specialize early you end up with an early succeeder phenomenon

They won the “genetic olympics” They tend to form groups that develop earlier and tend to be ahead They were the ones that were shaving in junior high school They were much better in junior high football than the rest of us were because they weighed 190 lbs. and we weighed 130 lbs.
You look at that and that’s not going to have any bearing on the end This is the literal marathon versus sprint argument; a developmental marathon
They tend to form groups that develop earlier and tend to be ahead
They were the ones that were shaving in junior high school
They were much better in junior high football than the rest of us were because they weighed 190 lbs. and we weighed 130 lbs.
This is the literal marathon versus sprint argument; a developmental marathon

The kids who sample different sports tend to do better, because we’re trying to develop general athletic attributes

Your kid loves baseball now, but you don’t necessarily know that it will always be the case
Mike’s son loved hockey, he also played lacrosse and baseball

Peter asks, “ Do you feel this way even if the kid is themselves wanting to play all the time, would you sort of force the kid kid? ”

Yeah, Mike forced his daughter All she wanted to do was hockey She wasn’t thrilled about the idea that he wasn’t letting her play in a summer tournament She was angry with him at times, they had fights about, “ Why can’t I do this. ”
Mike said to her, “ I don’t care if you’re the best player when you’re 12. I care if you’re the best player when you’re 18. Being the best player at 12, I’m not getting any ego gratification by going to this tournament and realizing that you made the 12-year-old All-Stars or something like that .”
All she wanted to do was hockey
She wasn’t thrilled about the idea that he wasn’t letting her play in a summer tournament
She was angry with him at times, they had fights about, “ Why can’t I do this. ”

⇒ Just because they want to do it, doesn’t mean it’s right for them

What you see in kids who play several sports

You’ll see the kids in hockey that played soccer because they’re kids that can pick up pucks in their feet
Mike’s son picked up lacrosse really fast because he played baseball and he played hockey and he understood the whole idea, “ Oh, we score. There’s a net. I can catch things extended .”
But if you weren’t sampling, you don’t know

A terrible analogy (but Mike going to use it anyway)

If your son came to you and said, “ I really like cocaine at this point, it’s the only thing that I want to do ,” you would be like, “ No, we’re not going to do that. ” Right?
But suddenly, because he used up…
You have to do a little heroin, you need to do a little meth, you have to drink a few beers

You see the absurdity of that (Mike likes absurd analogies)

If you substitute that for baseball
Yeah, you love baseball and that’s great, but you should learn to swim, and you should learn to do some sort of sport that involves your feet (soccer)

Some sort of combative sport are really good for kids

The instructors when Mike’s daughter was doing judo was Rhonda Rousey and Kayla Harrison What are the odds that you go to the best judo school in America that is 15 minutes from your house? Mike’s daughter can still say that she was taught by Rhonda Rousey and Kayla Harrison, having to go out on a mat and fight another kid It is really good for a 12-year-old girl
What are the odds that you go to the best judo school in America that is 15 minutes from your house?
Mike’s daughter can still say that she was taught by Rhonda Rousey and Kayla Harrison, having to go out on a mat and fight another kid
It is really good for a 12-year-old girl

“ If we can think of the worst possible thing you can do for your kid, it is to let them specialize. ”‒ Mike Boyle

Even if the kids want to specialize and when you don’t let them, they argue, “ Dad, I don’t like you. You’re mean. You’re not a good person because you’re not letting me do what I want to do. ”
You’ve got to look at them and think, “ That’s why I’m the parent. That’s why I’m in charge. ”

Gabrielle Lyon

Gabrielle’s kids are both in gymnastics and jujitsu
Her daughter hates jujitsu and she excels in gymnastics
We chose gymnastics because it allows for the development of her fine motor skills and her musculature
She loves it

“ We know that the healthier, fitter and more active these kids are, the greater their metabolic health as adults is .”‒ Gabrielle Lyon

Sports injuries

In the US, we see a lot more injuries than in other places because of this always having a season Think about this from a standpoint of longevity
Think about this from a standpoint of longevity

Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff doesn’t know why we haven’t stopped and questioned it a little bit sooner because it’s not like injury rates are going down
We’re playing more and getting injured more That’s what we’ve seen across all levels of sport
Jeff and Mike were discussing the rash of Achilles tendon injuries ‒ a lot of it has to go back to the repetitions in the mileage
That’s what we’ve seen across all levels of sport

One thing that Mike brought up that Jeff thought was really interesting was the way the style that the game is played now

Let’s say basketball, there’s so much more because it’s really: come down, chuck up a three, go down, chuck up a three, come down There’s a lot less of that inside game going on The game is faster They run more: 200 more miles a year per team Just because of the way the style of the game is played And they’re not all linear miles ‒ they’re start, stop, start, stop, start, stop There’s a lot of cumulative stress on the Achilles tendon doing that
This is on top of the fact that as teenagers, they are playing all year long
It’s not like it used to be when Larry Bird was playing He played his season and he went home and probably played something else
There’s a lot less of that inside game going on
The game is faster
They run more: 200 more miles a year per team
Just because of the way the style of the game is played
And they’re not all linear miles ‒ they’re start, stop, start, stop, start, stop
There’s a lot of cumulative stress on the Achilles tendon doing that
He played his season and he went home and probably played something else

We need to start looking at these extensive seasons and these multiple seasons per year because it’s not helping

If it was helping, we wouldn’t have all these athletes being injured
Things are worse now than they’ve ever been

Advice for preventing an Achilles injury: calf strength, ankle mobility, and listening to pain signals [A: 1:33:15, V: 1:43:42]

Say more about the Achilles injuries

That’s the injury Peter personally fears the most at this point because he plays soccer and baseball with his kids a ton Despite all the multilateral training he does He’s especially worried about soccer ‒ he’s worried he’ll be diving for the soccer ball and ping
Mike jokes, “ It’s the beef jerky injury .”
Despite all the multilateral training he does
He’s especially worried about soccer ‒ he’s worried he’ll be diving for the soccer ball and ping

What’s the protocol? How do you think about maximizing the odds of survival?

Mike Boyle

1 – Foam rolling and stretching
He’s a huge foam roll and stretch person and thinks everybody should be doing it

Peter asks, “ Specifically you’re talking about the soleus, you’re talking about rolling all the way down onto the tendon? ” [shown in the figure below]

Figure 5. Anatomy of the lower leg including the soleus and Achilles tendon . Image credit: Wikipedia

Mike Boyle

Yep, the calf
2 – Doing ankle mobility work Basic ankle rocks
This is where you talk about dogma ‒ all of a sudden, the front foot elevated work is becoming popular (on a toe-plate)
When you think about it from a preventative standpoint, it makes perfect sense
We were always told that correct technique is to have your whole foot on the ground
Mike’s physical therapist friend ( David Gray ) explained, “ If you want to get your foot engaged and you want to get your gastroc engaged, it just makes sense to put your foot on there [on a toe-plate] ”
Basic ankle rocks

“ Functional training is training that makes sense when you think about things .”‒ Mike Boyle

That’s why [chest] flies don’t make any sense, unless you’re a professional face slapper

Jeff adds that it’s probably better on the pec dec
Mike doesn’t have his clients do chest flies
Peter adds from a hypertrophy standpoint, there’s a lot of reasons to do it There’s something you must be getting out of that movement
There’s something you must be getting out of that movement

Jeff Cavielere

Jeff looks at the amount of abduction you’re getting: any press, any dip, any pushup, it’s all limited to a range of motion But if I can actually open it up even further and get more stretched We know the benefit, hypertrophy-wise, of applying stretch to a muscle
But that’s an exercise where you are also entertaining end range shoulder mobility and then excess stress on the anterior capsule
So if you’re a bodybuilder or in certain sports where the aesthetic matters, it could be the difference between 1st and 2nd place
Educating people about what those risks might be is an important first step to having a discussion of whether they should do it or not
But again, if he can provide an alternative where you could get additional benefits without the risk, then why do it?
But if I can actually open it up even further and get more stretched
We know the benefit, hypertrophy-wise, of applying stretch to a muscle

What else do you think is important in the playbook of minimizing the risk of the Achilles injury?

Jeff Cavaliere

Ankle mobility is something that no one pays attention to We don’t try to mobilize our ankles at all
Tight calves are common in people and they don’t really ever address them
And it all starts at the ground ‒ everything starts at the ground
If you have any compensation , if you lack ankle mobility, your knee is going to pay the price for sure
We don’t try to mobilize our ankles at all

⇒ The knee is like that consequential joint in between the hip and the foot, and it’s just reacting to what’s happening above and below

Jeff shares, “ My knees in particular, like they got beat up and they never really were to blame. All they were trying to do is just hinge back, and forth and they couldn’t do a good job because they were being betrayed by flat feet and weak hips. ”

If people pay more attention to strengthening their hips and to mobilizing their ankles, you can feed that chain up and down

And if your calf isn’t tight or if your ankle is more mobile, then there’s less of that tension being placed down through the tendon itself, then taking a step forward in terms of decreasing your risk of actually snapping that thing

In terms of strengthening the calf, do we think the soleus or the gastroc plays a greater role?

Do you need to have both knee bent and knee straight?

Jeff Cavaliere

We always focus on both
A lot of people will always talk about the gastroc specific strengthening with the knee straight just because it’s the one that gives you the better contraction But Jeff doesn’t care about that
Jeff cares about making sure that all the muscles in the body are strengthened
But Jeff doesn’t care about that

⇒ We’ll do equal amounts of seated versus standing calf raises

If you’re doing 3 sets in a day of standing, you’re doing 3 sets seated as well
Every time we program calf training, it’s seated and standing together
Jeff doesn’t think one versus the other is more responsible for the tears

As a group together, our ankles are lacking mobility, and because the ankles are lacking mobility…

Effect on the ankles of sleeping at night

Your feet are down, especially if you keep those blankets tight at the end of your bed, they’re down quite a bit
You’re spending 6, 7, 8 hours in that position
You’re not doing yourself any favor in terms of encouraging mobility at the ankle and flexibility through your calves
So we need to be much more aware of those areas and do more work towards that

We talked about in the very beginning: What do I have to do to be in shape?

Sometimes you have to own little mini parts of your program because specific to you, they’re important

This big fear of that Achilles tendon tear, that would be part of your program that you have to add another 5 minutes of mobility work for your ankle and do that 3-4 times a week

Jeff is right there with Peter: it’s a devastating injury that will take you out for quite a while
That time starts to add up and people start making choices, and their choices Again, cutting all the little stuff, because no one’s going to see my ankle development They want to see my arms or my chest or something, and so they do more work there But when you make those decisions to cut those little parts of the program, those are the ones that usually keep you injury free
Again, cutting all the little stuff, because no one’s going to see my ankle development
They want to see my arms or my chest or something, and so they do more work there
But when you make those decisions to cut those little parts of the program, those are the ones that usually keep you injury free

Speaking of single leg, the difference between doing calf raises with two feet versus single leg, that was one of the most profound eye openers for Peter

The difference in strength and how much less weight you could do with one leg at a time It’s not half the weight There’s some sort of interesting compensation when you’re doing it two legs at a time
It’s not half the weight
There’s some sort of interesting compensation when you’re doing it two legs at a time

Mike Boyle

We started adding that back into our adult program
We never put calf work in, and then Mike remembered trying to do some calf raises, and he was so sore

You realize it’s kind of a use it or lose it scenario where if you’re no longer sprinting and jumping, then that flexibility, the mobility of that complex and the ability of that thing to absorb force

Mike’s advice

1 – Avoid doing it if your calves are sore
Look at both Tatum and Haliburton had previous calf strains that they were playing with, ended up with Achilles tendon tears
Mike saw a great meme yesterday [shown below]

Figure 6. Meme about pain . Image credit: @9GAG on X

You’ve got to be able to look at that and realize that it shouldn’t hurt at all

If you’re thinking your calves or shins are sore ‒ that’s indicating to you that you were doing something that wasn’t kind, and that now you’ve got to give that enough time to recover so that that’s not sore anymore

Sometimes we get into the kind of hard guy stuff
Mike wrote an article one time called Does it Hurt? It’s a, “ Yes ,” or, “ No ,” question And any equivocation is, “ Yes .” After I warm-up, it doesn’t hurt (that’s a “ Yes ”)
It’s a, “ Yes ,” or, “ No ,” question
And any equivocation is, “ Yes .”
After I warm-up, it doesn’t hurt (that’s a “ Yes ”)

Peter adds: you’re using that as a sign that says, “ I need to understand why it hurts.”

It’s not, “ You don’t train. ”
You need to figure out what’s wrong with your movement pattern

Shoulder pain: how to keep training the upper body when shoulder pain limits pressing movements [A: 1:40:45, V: 1:52:45]

Mike Boyle

And figure out what Jeff was alluding to: upright rows and rotator cuff ‒ what is it that’s making your shoulders sore? What’s the movement that’s aggravating?
What’s the movement that’s aggravating?

⇒ For some people, we find that standing cable pressing is the one thing that everybody can do that doesn’t hurt

Mike’s goal is to get you to press pain-free, and we can build off that

Jeff Cavliere

What people don’t understand too is that it’s okay to go through periods of restriction to a single movement like a standing cable press, to actually allow the shoulder to heal to a point where you actually could get back to doing other variants of the press

Jeff had a labrum tear and an inability to do any type of pressing

He had to restrict himself simply to a variation of a crossover that wasn’t even a pure crossover, but just something that he could do where he could actually pull in a little bit and then cross over my body [typical crossover technique]
Because that was the only thing he could do pain-free
He could still work his chest in a way that allowed him to do something
He knew he could do something completely different, like a horizontal row
By doing that, he’s getting shoulder movement in a way that was different
It’s almost like the specialization in sport, not just doing all chest stuff but trying to actually attack the chest through a different way by still looking at the shoulder joint
Jeff would do a lot of rowing, which probably was good just posturally to balance out some of the imbalance he had in the shoulder Also to just give him more joint range of motion in the shoulder because he’s getting all this extension
The combination of those 2 things got him to a point where his shoulder doesn’t hurt
Now he can actually go back to pressing again in a smart way with dumbbells [ dumbbell bench press ]
Also to just give him more joint range of motion in the shoulder because he’s getting all this extension

Jeff doesn’t barbell bench press, but he does it with dumbbells, and he has none of the pain that he had years ago when that was going on

It’s okay to understand that this is a long game and you might want to take a step back and stay with the exercises that don’t cause pain and allow yourself a chance to be actively mobile to still recover at the same time
Instead of sitting on the sidelines (that’s not going to turn out well)

Effective strength training strategies for women before, during, and after the menopausal transition [A: 1:43:15, V: 1:55:35]

Gabrielle, what are you noticing as the most important things as women are making the transition from perimenopause into menopause?

Gabrielle Lyon

1 – Don’t wait until you start to feel that your body composition is changing

“ The fitter they [women] are going into perimenopause and menopause, the better they’re going to be both metabolically and just activities of daily life, everything. Those women seem to suffer much less .”‒ Gabrielle Lyon

Symptoms that appear when hormones are changing

Sleep is poor
One of the signs of menopause is this frozen shoulder
Gabrielle believes in HRT or menopause therapy
When it comes to training, in the literature Gabrielle hasn’t seen evidence that training is sex-specific

There is not something specific for women that needs to happen other than following good foundational principles of strength training, hypertrophy, and cardiovascular activity

2 – One of the things that Gabrielle looks at is if women are at risk of injury of the tendon or joints This is something that changes
But once we treat them, she doesn’t see a reason to change
Good programming is good programming Progressive stimulus is progressive stimulus
This is something that changes
Progressive stimulus is progressive stimulus

Mike Boyle

When Mike read [ Forever Strong ], it was very reinforcing for him because he’s getting that question more from female clients Because people like Gabrielle are talking about it
It always comes back to strength and conditioning
Because people like Gabrielle are talking about it

Get stronger, get in better shape, get them to challenge themselves more with weights and not be content

There’s an ego component that’s absent in females that is very present in males

Mike Boyle

Males will look at what Jeff did, and might think, “ Oh, I’m going to try that .”
Females just don’t have that ‒ they’re very internally driven And sometimes, that will cause them to underachieve in the weight room because they’re not worried about being top dog, they’re not worried about who lifted the most weight It makes them better clients
Mike has a lot of really elite females that are great hockey players and lacrosse players and stuff, and they’re the best people to train by far because they don’t have a lot of the extra baggage sometimes that the guys have
Females are way more compliant They just listen to what you say They don’t argue with you They don’t worry about what Jeff is doing
And sometimes, that will cause them to underachieve in the weight room because they’re not worried about being top dog, they’re not worried about who lifted the most weight
It makes them better clients
They just listen to what you say
They don’t argue with you
They don’t worry about what Jeff is doing

Mike’s advice for women

Encouraging them to continually get stronger
Look at it as conditioning versus cardiovascular workout
Pushing them to do more intervals, pushing them to do more aggressive intervals You might call it a VO 2 max workout He loves Andy Galpin’s idea of getting your heart rate up really high once a week [Andy was a guest in episodes #239 & #250 ] Wear a heart rate monitor and don’t be afraid to push your heart rate Don’t be afraid to be out of breath and feel like you want to lay on the floor kind of thing
You might call it a VO 2 max workout
He loves Andy Galpin’s idea of getting your heart rate up really high once a week [Andy was a guest in episodes #239 & #250 ]
Wear a heart rate monitor and don’t be afraid to push your heart rate
Don’t be afraid to be out of breath and feel like you want to lay on the floor kind of thing
[Andy was a guest in episodes #239 & #250 ]

Mike thinks intervals on a big AssaultBike / Airdyne is the most efficient way to hit your cardiovascular system with no orthopedic costs

He bets Gabrielle would be able to bike with her hamstring injury Because you’re not weight-bearing and you’re not getting a lot of aggressive hip extension and aggressive hip flexion You can probably torture yourself on there for a long time with out having any negative effects
She’s planning on trying it later today
Because you’re not weight-bearing and you’re not getting a lot of aggressive hip extension and aggressive hip flexion
You can probably torture yourself on there for a long time with out having any negative effects

With women, the biggest things is getting them over that, “ I’m going to get big so I don’t push myself ,” kind of thing

Mike films a lot of women and asks them to talk about their weight
He has 2 of the best lacrosse attackers on the US team that are in their mid-20s and have been here for 5 years They’ve gained no weight They’re stronger, they’re faster
They’ve gained no weight
They’re stronger, they’re faster

⇒ But females gaining lean mass is really difficult

You have to really be a super responder You will get the occasional really mesomorphic female where she really does respond to weights, but they’re super rare
Mike always says, “ Apples end up like apples, oranges end up like oranges .” It’s not like suddenly one day the apple is going to wake up and the next day going to be an orange If you’re an ectomorph , you’re an ectomorph
You will get the occasional really mesomorphic female where you do think, “ Oh wow, she really does respond to weights ,” but they’re super rare
You will get the occasional really mesomorphic female where she really does respond to weights, but they’re super rare
It’s not like suddenly one day the apple is going to wake up and the next day going to be an orange
If you’re an ectomorph , you’re an ectomorph

Jeff, are you seeing in women specifically that you’re training, especially during that transition through menopause?

Jeff Cavaliere

As Gabrielle pointed out, the training specifics are pretty much the same What is good smart training for men is equally applicable to women
What is good smart training for men is equally applicable to women

1 – From a PT standpoint, biomechanically, there are some differences in terms of something called the Q angle , the angle of the hip of the femur coming down to the knee [illustrated in the figure below]

Figure 7. How the Q-angle is measured . Image credit: Wikipedia

It does create a lot more valgus at the knee for women than it does for men
You just have to be aware of those things

When you’re doing certain activities, you want to be able to coach better in terms of being aware of positioning

The tendency for a lot of women when they jump is to land in a much more valgus knee state, which could put more and more stress
We’re not fearful of them blowing out in a training session, but as we talked about before, that cumulative stress of every time you land, you’re getting more and more stress on the MCL or the ACL

That would be something that you’d want to coach around and make them aware of because you could strengthen that

You could work on biomechanically improving those things Put a band around their knees and have them jump that way and land that way They’re l earning how to activate their abductors in their hip All men could benefit from that, but it’s not an additional requirement because we’re not dealing with the same biomechanical angles
Put a band around their knees and have them jump that way and land that way
They’re l earning how to activate their abductors in their hip
All men could benefit from that, but it’s not an additional requirement because we’re not dealing with the same biomechanical angles

2 – Because of hormones, women will have more laxity at different times of the month that will make them susceptible to different stresses

You just have to be aware of the education side of it and coaching through that

⇒ As far as the exercises, the programming, we also found that women just tend to be much stronger than men in terms of their output pound for pound

And given the differences in sex, they’re able to proportionally push more weight, especially with their lower body than men can (much stronger)

Jeff asks, “ Have you found that too, Mike, that women are incredibly strong in terms of their output in strength comparative to men? ”

Mike hasn’t thought about that in terms of pound for pound
The one thing we found is that they’re much stronger in their upper body than they think they are
Mike has got women doing weighted chins with 45 pounds for 5 45 for 7 is the best he’s seen
45 for 7 is the best he’s seen

Peter reacts, “ What? Wow!… 45 pounds wrapped around her waist and she’s doing 7 chin-ups. ”

Mike Boyle

Yes, Alex Carpenter
In Mike’s gym, he really emphasizes it and most of his men can do that One did 90 for 2 the other day, and he weighs 180 Mike really emphasizes pulling
One did 90 for 2 the other day, and he weighs 180
Mike really emphasizes pulling

Best practices for strength training and athletic development in children, and the pitfalls of early sports specialization [A: 1:50:30, V: 2:03:41]

Peter comes back to something Mike said at the outside talking about kids
The youngest he trains is 11

You drew a hard line in the sand about that age. How come?

Mike Boyle

Mike doesn’t want to be in the childhood stealing business
He thinks kids should be kids and they don’t need a strength and conditioning coach when they’re 7, 8, 9, 10 years old
They probably need a playground and a bike and a swing set and a slide

There’s a lot of things that kids could be doing that are way more fun than being in Mike’s gym

Mike drew the line at 12 initially, but the sports brackets are 11, 12 When we realized that we drew the line at 12, people then started coming and wanted to bring a team So eventually we bumped it down and then we just resisted bumping it down more because Mike doesn’t want to run a kinder gym kind of program He doesn’t want birthday parties
At 11 you’re going into middle school You can start to understand that there may be some commitment involved in terms of, “ Hey, if I want to make a team, I’m going to probably have to learn to work at this thing and I’m going to have to learn to train .”
It’s very good if you look at long-term athletic development models, that 11, 12 is a good learning to train age to get kids in and get them kind of oriented to how to do the exercises
When we realized that we drew the line at 12, people then started coming and wanted to bring a team
So eventually we bumped it down and then we just resisted bumping it down more because Mike doesn’t want to run a kinder gym kind of program He doesn’t want birthday parties
He doesn’t want birthday parties
You can start to understand that there may be some commitment involved in terms of, “ Hey, if I want to make a team, I’m going to probably have to learn to work at this thing and I’m going to have to learn to train .”

Mike’s training is very “learn to train” oriented at that stage

Mike tells his coaches all the time, “ I don’t care if any of these kids get stronger. I could care less. I really care that they’re good lifters .”

If they’ve been here 10 weeks, and by the end they can do exercises with correct form: gobble squat, sumo deadlift, do a clean, do a chin-up, and do a pushup ‒ then mission accomplished

Peter finds all of that fantastic

It flies in the face of what many people think, which is, “ Oh my god, an 11-year-old lifting weights? It’s going to stunt their growth, Mike. Aren’t you crazy? ”

Mike literally wrote that down, it’s funny That was in his notes in the beginning about the misconception stuff We’re still dealing with this stunted growth thing
The New York Times did an article where they tried to pull the string on where the stunted growth thing came from The only study they could find was on Japanese forced child labor Kids who were forced into child labor tended to be smaller than their age-matched peers; and they were malnourished
But you still have doctors talking about growth plate stuff
That was in his notes in the beginning about the misconception stuff
We’re still dealing with this stunted growth thing
The only study they could find was on Japanese forced child labor
Kids who were forced into child labor tended to be smaller than their age-matched peers; and they were malnourished

There’s no evidence of growth plate damage in kids who lift weights

Gabrielle talked about gymnastics
Mike always tells people that figure skating and gymnastics are 10,000x more aggressive than anything we would do in the gym It’s not even good for kids when you look at what they’re trying to do with these young bodies: the rotation, spin around 3x and land In the gym, he’s going to ask a kid to hold 10 lbs. and squat up and down
It’s not even good for kids when you look at what they’re trying to do with these young bodies: the rotation, spin around 3x and land
In the gym, he’s going to ask a kid to hold 10 lbs. and squat up and down

Peter hasn’t pushed any of his kids

Peter’s daughter decided at some point she wanted to start lifting greats
The boys like to come in the gym and he plays goofy games with t hem

Jaco and Leif have this fun little card game they play

It’s basically like you designate what’s a spade, what’s a heart, what’s a diamond, etc. You pick an exercise, like this is a pushup, this is a burpee, this is a sit-up Then if you flip a 10, you do 10 of that thing, you do 10 of them If you get a 7, you do 7 of them
They’ll come into the gym with us and play that game
You pick an exercise, like this is a pushup, this is a burpee, this is a sit-up
Then if you flip a 10, you do 10 of that thing, you do 10 of them
If you get a 7, you do 7 of them

The problem with the boys is they want to “one-up” each other

Once one of them goblet squats this amount of weight, the next guy wants to go to the heavier kettlebell and the next guy wants to go to the heavy kettlebell
Peter gets a little worried because he sees their form deteriorate They go into what he calls “turtle back” ‒ they go from lumbar extension, they start getting into lumbar flexion
They go into what he calls “turtle back” ‒ they go from lumbar extension, they start getting into lumbar flexion

What advice would you have for trying to help little boys who want to start lifting, but you just want them to develop the form?

Jeff Cavaliere

It’s funny because if you were to ask them to jump onto something or even to walk upstairs two steps at a time, their form usually is going to look quite good when it’s just a naturally occurring activity that they’re doing in their life
When you then ask them to do an exercise a pushup If they were to get themselves off the floor, it would probably look a lot prettier than it does when they ask them to do a pushup Their ass is up in the air, their shoulders are wide, they’re kind of moving in all different kinds of segments
It’s this disconnect
If they were to get themselves off the floor, it would probably look a lot prettier than it does when they ask them to do a pushup
Their ass is up in the air, their shoulders are wide, they’re kind of moving in all different kinds of segments

⇒ It’s not that they lack the athletic skills or the strength to do what it is you’re asking them to do; they lack the awareness of what it is you’re asking them to do

When it’s packaged as an exercise, they’re not really sure what that is

It’s our responsibility to make it easy to understand and tell them where they’re supposed to be feeling it

The #1 question people ask when they’re starting an exercise program (anyone, not just kids)

What am I supposed to work?
What am I feeling here?
Where am I supposed to feel this?
Because if they’re not feeling it there, what do they have to do to get it to feel it there?

Kids need to learn the proper form and biomechanics of how to do the exercise

Kids possess a lot more athletic skill and natural abilities than we give them credit for
When we just have them start doing exercises, that break down

Take the time to do the exercises right ‒ start with bodyweight and have them learn the mechanics of that

The drop squat is where they can add weight and learn better than it could be if they were trying to learn a body weight squat That actual implement would assist them in learning how to do it properly because it’s going to take their center of mass straight down
That actual implement would assist them in learning how to do it properly because it’s going to take their center of mass straight down

Jeff has worked with kids in the 11 to 12-year-old bracket, and that’s what we try to focus on learning the movement, go slow (don’t speed through it)

⇒ Speed is something that usually breaks down in any attempt at good form

Learn the movements and then we could always speed them up and we could always add weight
But if you don’t learn the form, you’re going to basically set up a foundation that’s going to ultimately crack
Especially if they get away with that for their teen years and now they’re in their 20s, and then really now that competition starts to kick in and competing with your buddies and then things get really ugly

Are either of you guys doing sports specific training for these 12-year-olds?

For example, if you’ve got a 12-year-old who’s a pitcher versus a 12-year-old who’s a basketball player, are you having them do different exercises?

Mike Boyle

Nothing

“ I always say sports specific training is bullshit. It’s absolutely nonsense. ”‒ Mike Boyle

If you want to go get better at baseball, then go play baseball
If you come to the weight room, Mike has trained guys in every major professional sport and it’s at most 80/20, probably 90/10 90% of what we do is the same 10% of what we do is different And that 10% is totally irrelevant to a 8, 9, 10, 11, 12-year-old (it makes absolutely no difference)
90% of what we do is the same
10% of what we do is different
And that 10% is totally irrelevant to a 8, 9, 10, 11, 12-year-old (it makes absolutely no difference)

Peter finds that counterintuitive

He would’ve thought that if you’re a pitcher, you’ve got be taking more care of the rotator cuff than maybe the guy who’s the hockey player

Mike explains

That would be the 10%: the 10% with baseball would be that shoulder care stuff that you might not really worry about with your hockey players or your football players. That’s where your difference in program would be like that one spot (the rotator cuff)
But with kids, Mike looks at it thinking, “ You shouldn’t be a pitcher. You’re not a pitcher, you’re a baseball player. And you might end up being a catcher. You might end up being a shortstop .”
Because Nomar Garciaparra went to Georgia Tech and tried to kick on the football team, and he loves soccer He married Mia Hamm ; he’s a huge soccer fan Mike used to train him, and he told Mike one time, “ I would absolutely be playing soccer if I didn’t live in the United States. But I realized the best use of my athleticism was Major League Baseball. And that playing in the MLS would never have given me the type of career that I would’ve had in Major League Baseball. ”
He married Mia Hamm ; he’s a huge soccer fan
Mike used to train him, and he told Mike one time, “ I would absolutely be playing soccer if I didn’t live in the United States. But I realized the best use of my athleticism was Major League Baseball. And that playing in the MLS would never have given me the type of career that I would’ve had in Major League Baseball. ”

“ Most every great athlete that I’ve seen was a great multi-sport athlete, but we’ve got this self-fulfilling prophecy now of specialization .”‒ Mike Boyle

People point to Tiger Woods as an example of specializing
If you can find one specialist, Mike can find you 1000 generalists who have all achieved
But you continue to use the specialist as the example because that’s what you want to believe as achievement oriented people

⇒ For kids, it’s the polar opposite: for them to be great at something down the road, they probably need this super broad based skill set

The base of the pyramid versus the height of the pyramid: the bigger the base, the larger the height
If you build an obelisk out of the gate, you’re probably not going to accomplish much

Jeff Cavaliere

Carl Crawford didn’t get those scholarship offers for 3 different sports because he started playing at 18 or 17 He obviously was playing all those sports at a young age and developing all those athletic skills to where he could select the one that was most appropriate for him, either financially or…
He obviously was playing all those sports at a young age and developing all those athletic skills to where he could select the one that was most appropriate for him, either financially or…

Mike agrees

Carl Crawford was the best
Some of this is genetic lottery
Carl could do a standing backflip at 230 lbs.
He’s still the most athletic person Mike has ever seen, but he would’ve been that in any number of sports
He doesn’t buy the argument of specialization The fact that he chose baseball Europeans specialize in soccer ‒ they don’t have the choices that we have over here We’ve got a lot of opportunities that maybe aren’t present in other countries, so people will cherry-pick because they want to support their thesis
The fact that he chose baseball
Europeans specialize in soccer ‒ they don’t have the choices that we have over here
We’ve got a lot of opportunities that maybe aren’t present in other countries, so people will cherry-pick because they want to support their thesis

How to foster healthy habits and an interest in fitness beyond playing sports [A: 2:00:00, V: 2:14:32]

Peter points out

Virtually no kid is going to be a professional athlete

Peter’s interest is in, how do you use the interest in sports first to fuel the spark that says lifelong activity is an important pillar of health?

Second, how do I make sure that when you are done playing sports [you remain active]? Which for most people is the end of high school There’s a narrow subset that’ll say it’s the end of college, and then there’s virtually nobody who’s playing sports after that. Because to your point, pickleball with your buddies on Sunday, that’s not sports
Which for most people is the end of high school
There’s a narrow subset that’ll say it’s the end of college, and then there’s virtually nobody who’s playing sports after that.
Because to your point, pickleball with your buddies on Sunday, that’s not sports

So we all stopped playing sports pretty young, and yet we are going to need to train for the rest of our lives

How do we use youth sports as a tool to set you up to be an athlete for life where the sport changes to life?

Mike Boyle

Sports can be used to teach life lessons

They say sports can build character or can build characters
Do you have to use it to build the kid’s character?
And sometimes that may be saying you’re not just going to get what you want
For example, a kid likes baseball, but we’re going to play soccer in the spring because we think they need to be exposed to more things And the kid learns that lesson
Sometimes kids learn this micro focus really early on, and then later on when they don’t achieve, they think, “ Oh, I wish I’d done more things. I wish I’d sampled more. I wish I’d explored more .”
It’s looking at the real body of evidence versus looking at the evidence that’s presented to you by the person who’s trying to get your money (which is what usually happens now)
And the kid learns that lesson

Jeff Cavaliere

Where we’re going off track: coaches and parents are overemphasizing the importance of what it is children are actually competing in
As Mike pointed out: because of money that we have all these additional leagues throughout the year
But it’s also because everyone thinks their kid’s going to be a pro (they’re not)

Peter points out: people don’t want their kid to be left behind

Jeff Cavaliere

There’s all these social pressures behind this feeding into the problems that we see
This is taking away from the fact that this is introducing lifelong habits
To the point where it’s degenerating something that should be very positive into something that becomes, at worst, destructive

You’re overdoing something, and you’re actually a lot of times also making a lot of these kids hate athletics by the time they’re 17, 18, 19

Peter agrees

Peter can’t tell you the number of people he’s met who grew up with collegiate swimming and now cannot stand swimming
It’s such a shame because swimming is, while it’s not good for bone density, it’s pretty much good for everything else
Peter adds, “ It’s not the only exercise you should do, but boy, if I think about if there’s one exercise I could insert into everybody’s life, it would be some amount of swimming .”

Mike Boyle agrees

Swimming was his best sport
He went to the first swimming meeting at Springfield College
He still remembers Red Silvia (famous Division III coach) ‒ the first words out of his mouth were, “ The first practice is at ” Twice a day, before school and after school Mike was thinking, “ He’s talking per day here, right? ”
Mike sat politely through the whole meeting like this and nodded and went to the football meeting and tried out for freshman football because there was no way he was going in the pool twice a day It was the end of his swimming career
Now he has terrible shoulders, and he can’t stand swimming because it hurts
Twice a day, before school and after school
Mike was thinking, “ He’s talking per day here, right? ”
It was the end of his swimming career

Gabrielle Lyon

Gabrielle shares about her kids, “ Maybe it’s not a standardized training program. They’re in there, they’re doing stuff with us every day .”

Her kids are 4 and 5 and they train with her
They might not be doing the same lifts, but we let them play with a kettlebell, pick things up, put them down, and we let them run

We let our kids do things that they would physically be able to do without a lot of queuing

⇒ Thinking about some of the data on tendon health, we know that the earlier people start, the better and more resilient those tendons are

Because they’re not starting later in life, not getting injured
The earlier they start, the better This might be counterintuitive because we’ve all heard how kids shouldn’t lift weights or train Maybe it’s not a standardized training program, but they’re in there doing stuff with us
This might be counterintuitive because we’ve all heard how kids shouldn’t lift weights or train
Maybe it’s not a standardized training program, but they’re in there doing stuff with us

Something each guest has changed their mind about in the last five years [A: 2:04:00, V: 2:19:12]

If you think back to the last 5 years, is there something significant you have changed your mind on that has changed the way you behave, the way you help other people?

Gabrielle Lyon shares, “ I don’t think body fat percentage is nearly as important as we think it is, I think that it is going to be somewhat of an outdated metric .”

She believes that intermuscular adipose tissue (IMAT) is going to be much more predictive of disease
Gabrielle interviewed Melanie Cree on her podcast We were talking about PCOS and Gabrielle was thinking: metabolic PCOS, what is the body fat percentage that’s going to change the outcome? Melanie looks at her, she goes, “ Gabrielle, it has nothing to do with body fat percent. It had to do with their intermuscular adipose tissue. ”
We were talking about PCOS and Gabrielle was thinking: metabolic PCOS, what is the body fat percentage that’s going to change the outcome?
Melanie looks at her, she goes, “ Gabrielle, it has nothing to do with body fat percent. It had to do with their intermuscular adipose tissue. ”

Intramuscular adipose tissue is going to be an upcoming theme. It’s much more specific to insulin resistance and these metabolic outcomes that we care about.

Peter points out: this can be measured easily with CT scans and with MRIs, but it’s difficult with DEXA

Peter asks, “ Is ultrasound viable? Obviously you wouldn’t be able to get whole body, but you could sample the quads. ”

⇒ That would be the canary in the coal mine: if you’re accumulating intramuscular fat in your quads

Gabrielle Lyon

But that would be difficult to test
MRI seems to be where a lot of the data is
We’re not there to measure it
This is something that we are going to see so much more of, and we are all focused on a muscle-centric approach

For the last 50 years it’s been all about obesity, and it’s almost that we’re looking where it’s obvious, but it doesn’t mean that that’s where it’s effective

Peter agrees

Pharmacologically, he thinks a muscle-centric approach is the next frontier
What the GLP-1 agonists have done over the past 5 years with the introduction of the third and fourth generations of those drugs (the first two were largely failures) is we’re at a point where people can see that you can address the crisis of overabundance from a nutrition standpoint

People realize the new problem that is yet to be addressed is sarcopenia

When Peter is looking at what’s at the leading edge in the frontier of biotech right now, it’s all around anti-sarcopenia drugs

We have another great drug that works against sarcopenia: it involves holding iron and eating certain types of foods

“ People are waking up to the idea that it’s not enough to solve the adiposity problem. You must address the sarcopenic problem. ”‒ Peter Attia

What about you, Mike? What have you changed your mind on?

Mike Boyle

Digestive health
He had a bowel resection 9 months ago (they took a foot of his colon out)
He did a presentation for his staff called, You Don’t Know Shit

Digestive health is the most neglected area of health right now because we don’t want to talk about it (it’s uncomfortable)

Until you experience it firsthand, you don’t realize how important fiber is
How important water is: chronic dehydration seems like it’s really not a big deal, but it suddenly it’s a big deal

Mike’s dumpster analogy

You have a dumpster your whole life that’s out in the back of your house and it just gets emptied all the time, and then suddenly one day you realize that they can’t empty the dumpster anymore Like I’m in trouble And that’s us
We’re worried about our muscular system, we’re worried about our nervous system, we’re worried about our endocrine system, and our digestive system is just this thing that’s supposed to be this dependable system that’s just going to take care of us forever
Then suddenly in our 50s and 60s, it starts to fail and we don’t want to talk about it
Mike was in the hospital ‒ it was a major surgery to remove a foot of his colon and put it back together again
Like I’m in trouble
And that’s us

Mike now takes a fiber supplement, he puts fiber in his shakes

⇒ People are way more fiber deficient than they are protein deficient

They’re going to suffer the effects way down the road and it’ll be too late for them to realize

Mike’s advice, “ Drink more water, eat more fiber, because you don’t want a bowel resection. ”

What about you Jeff?

Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff has twin 9-year-old boys, and in the last 5 years, they’ve gone from 4 to 9 Mom was definitely the favorite for the 1st 4 years, then he stepped in and became the fun guy
He’s realized through their interactivity with him to appreciate things he didn’t appreciate before
In the first half of his adult life, Jeff was focused on professional achievement Whether it be working for the Mets or starting his business Going all hours of the night to try to build a business
Mom was definitely the favorite for the 1st 4 years, then he stepped in and became the fun guy
Whether it be working for the Mets or starting his business Going all hours of the night to try to build a business
Going all hours of the night to try to build a business

Jeff has really learned to better prioritize his time with his kids

To the point where it’s difficult for him to make travel plans to do podcasts because he really wants to be around them
His boys are on the spectrum and he has really learned to appreciate their wins every day
He doesn’t take anything for granted
If the situation was different, he probably would’ve continued to work, work, work

From a professional standpoint, one of the things that’s overlooked is balance training

It’s an area that people are going to probably have to spend a little bit more time focusing on
Like digestive health, it’s another one of those things that’s going to get worse as you get older for a number of reasons 1 – Your reaction times will get worse 2 – Your proprioceptive sense is going to get worse, which is essentially your sense of body position 3 – Your strength is going to get worse inevitably decade by decade
They talked earlier about the fear of Achilles tendon injury
1 – Your reaction times will get worse
2 – Your proprioceptive sense is going to get worse, which is essentially your sense of body position
3 – Your strength is going to get worse inevitably decade by decade

⇒ 20-30 years from now, our biggest fear should be falling

Because when you fall, you’re likely going to live a pretty difficult end of your life and it might lead to a much faster end of life

Training balance is another one of those things that’s going to have to get sectioned into that 5 minutes of extra work that you’re going to want to do for yourself

Example of a balance exercise : standing on one leg and drawing an alphabet with your other foot

⇒ The most important thing when you’re training balance is to close your eyes

When you don’t close your eyes, you’re actually one dimensionally creating an environment that’s not actually what we’re going to face
Most people fall in the dark because they don’t have that visual feedback to correct
By the time you send that signal down to your ankle to make an adaptation, it’s too late Or our reaction times are delayed too
Or our reaction times are delayed too

Balance is a skill you can improve by working on it

Jeff has noticed all of these things happening, including worsening eyesight

Jeff’s advice, “ Making a dedicated effort is something that I think people should probably invest some time into because it’s well worth the investment for that long range safety. ”

Peter’s takeaway

The theme here is we all agree on the gravitational pull of aging
Despite the fact of what some of the popular biohackers might have you believe, none of us are getting out of this alive
Each of us can remember what it was like to be 10 years younger regardless of whatever age we are today
But this idea is: you do have a choice at the rate at which this glider is going to come down The glider will come down. Gravity always wins.
The glider will come down. Gravity always wins.

You can train to reduce the rate of decline ‒ the training has to be specific

It’s not obvious or intuitive that you should do some of these exercises

A lot of the things that you guys have talked about today are exercises Peter just loves

The front foot on a 45 pound plate, putting the front foot up there, going into a lunge, taking a plate and doing little twists The amount of stress that that puts on the proprioceptive capacity of that front foot is insane What a dumb looking, unsexy exercise that never shows up in the mirror and yet what a phenomenal exercise
Peter agrees 100% on all of these balance drills with eyes shut It is frustrating to be on one foot with your eyes shut Third layer is to turn your head when you’re doing that You don’t want to do things you suck at, but you kind of have to do this
The amount of stress that that puts on the proprioceptive capacity of that front foot is insane
What a dumb looking, unsexy exercise that never shows up in the mirror and yet what a phenomenal exercise
It is frustrating to be on one foot with your eyes shut
Third layer is to turn your head when you’re doing that
You don’t want to do things you suck at, but you kind of have to do this

Peter adds, “ I just hope that people realize that ignoring it won’t make it less likely. ”

It’s a relatively small price to pay You’re not asking people to be in the gym 12 hours a week
You’re not asking people to be in the gym 12 hours a week

If someone could give 2 great hours a week in the gym

It breaks Peter’s heart that people say, “ It’s too late. ” or “ It’s too hard. ” or “ I’ll do it tomorrow ” For whatever reason For whatever belief system
For whatever reason
For whatever belief system

Peter appreciates this conversation even though we didn’t cover a single thing he had written down

We talked about good stuff
He wishes they had another 3 hours

Selected Links / Related Material

Muscle-centric medicine : Muscle-Centric Medicine® | [1:15]

Gabrielle’s book : Forever Strong: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well by Gabrielle Lyon (2023) | [1:15, 5:00, 1:45:30]

Jeff’s YouTube channel : ATHLEAN-X | [4:30]

Playbook that goes along with Gabrielle’s book : The Forever Strong Playbook by Gabrielle Lyon (2026)

Gabrielle’s recent paper on the relationship between sexual function and muscle mass : Exploring the link between muscle quality and erectile dysfunction: assessing the impact of mass and strength | Sexual Medicine Reviews (M Duan et al. 2025) | [5:00]

Jeff Cavaliere’s YouTube channel : ATHLEAN-X | [7:30]

Mike’s book recommendations to build the attendance habit : [21:15]

Never Lose a Customer Again: Turn Any Sale into Lifelong Loyalty in 100 Days by Joey Coleman (2018)
Unreasonable Hospitality: The Remarkable Power of Giving People More Than They Expect by Will Guidara (2022)

Charlie Francis Training System : Charlie Francis Training System by Charlie Francis (2012) | [1:00:00]

Mike’s article about squatting : More On Why We Don’t Squat | Mike Boyle’s Strengthcoach.com (2016) | [1:14:15]

Mike’s article about not exercising through pain : Does it hurt | Mike Boyle’s Strengthcoach.com | [1:41:00]

Episodes of The Drive with Andy Galpin : [1:47:00]

#239 ‒ The science of strength, muscle, and training for longevity | Andy Galpin, Ph.D. (PART I) (January 23, 2023)
#250 ‒ Training principles for longevity | Andy Galpin, Ph.D. (PART II) (April 10, 2023)

Article debunking the myth that lifting weights is harmful for kids : Phys Ed: The Benefits of Weight Training for Children | The New York Times (Gretchen Reynolds November 24, 2010) | [1:53:00]

Gabrielle’s podcast with Melanie Cree : The Science of Optimal Hormone Health | Dr. Melanie Cree PHD | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (April 15, 2025) | [2:05:15]

People Mentioned

Charlie Francis (1948-2010, Canadian Olympic sprinter and sprint coach) [58:15]
Doug Paddon-Jones (1969-2021, Professor of Nutrition and Metabolism and the Sheridan Lorenz Distinguished Professor in Aging and Health at the University of Texan Medical Branch at Galveston, expert in muscle mass regulation and function) [1:12:45]
Andy Galpin (Executive Director of the Human Performance Center at Parker University, expert in strength and conditioning [1:46:45]
Red Silvia (All-American competitive swimmer for Springfield College, and a Hall of Fame swimming coach for Springfield from 1937 through 1978) [2:03:30]
Melanie Cree (Professor of Pediatrics-Endocrinology and Director of the Multi-Disciplinary PCOS clinic at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus) [2:05:15]

Gabrielle Lyon

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon™ is an accomplished physician and the New York Times Best-Selling author of FOREVER STRONG: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well . At the forefront of modern medicine, Dr. Lyon is leading a revolutionary movement focusing on the body’s largest organ—skeletal muscle. Her mission is to promote longevity and combat the pervasive threats of obesity, heart disease, and diabetes by supporting muscle health.

Dr. Lyon’s educational and research background includes dual clinical fellowships in geriatrics and nutritional sciences at Washington University, along with undergraduate training in nutritional sciences at the University of Illinois. A highly sought-after educator and consultant, she is an authority in the practical application of protein types and levels for health, performance, aging, and disease prevention. Dr. Lyon also works closely with members of the United States Special Operations Forces.

Through her thriving private practice , TEDx Talk , YouTube channel , podcast , online community, and bestselling book, Dr. Lyon is dedicated to empowering people to foster strength and well-being in the weight room and in their daily lives and communities. [ DrGabrielleLyon ]

Facebook: Gabrielle Lyon

Instagram: drgabriellelyon

LinkedIn: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Podcast: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show

TEDx talk: The Midlife Muscle Crisis: why we’ve gotten obesity all wrong

Website and medical practice: Muscle-Centric Medicine®

X: @drgabriellelyon

YouTube channel: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Mike Boyle

Michael Boyle is one of the foremost experts in the fields of strength and conditioning, functional training, and general fitness. Mike served as the Head Strength and Conditioning Coach at Boston University for 15 years, also for the past 25 years was the Strength and Conditioning Coach for Men’s Ice Hockey at Boston University. Mike was the Boston Red Sox strength and conditioning coach in 2013 that won the World Series. In addition to his duties at Boston University and the Red Sox, from 1991-1999 Boyle served as the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Boston Bruins of the National Hockey League. Michael was also the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the 1998 US Women’s Olympic Ice Hockey Team, who were gold medalists in Nagano and 2014 silver medalists in Sochi, and served as a consultant in the development of the USA Hockey National Team Development Program in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

In 1996, he co-founded Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning , one of the first for-profit strength and conditioning companies in the world. Mike Boyle Strength and Conditioning exists for one reason: to provide performance enhancement training for athletes of all levels. Athletes trained range from junior high school students to All Stars in almost every major professional sport. Mike has published a number of books on strength and conditioning including New Functional Training for Sports . Currently Mike spends his time lecturing, teaching, training, and writing [ MBSC ]

Facebook: Michael Boyle

Instagram: michael_boyle1959

Website MBSC: Mike Boyle strength & conditioning

Website StregthCoach.com : Michael Boyle’s StrengthCoach

X: @mboyle1959

YouTube Channel: Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning

Jeff Cavaliere

Jeff Cavaliere is a fitness guru, social media star, personal trainer, and previous head physical therapist of the New York Mets ( professional baseball team). Jeff earned a Bachelor of Science in Physioneurobiolgy/Premedicine and a Masters degree in Physical Therapy from the University of Connecticut. He is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS) by the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA). Jeff served as both the Head Physical Therapist and Assistant Strength Coach for the New York Mets during the National League East Championship 2006, 2007 and 2008 seasons. During this time, he coached some of the game’s most accomplished players including future hall of fame pitchers Tom Glavine and Pedro Martinez, and perennial all-stars Carlos Delgado, Carlos Beltran, David Wright, Jose Reyes, and Billy Wagner to name just a few. In addition to physiotherapy and training, Jeff is an author and lecturer speaking on topics such as baseball injury prevention, sport specific conditioning, sports training, and injury rehabilitation and prevention. Jeff founded ATHLEAN-X Training System to share methods and techniques used by some of the greatest athletes to forge explosive and strong physiques. This is a science based training system allowing anyone to get the same results as professional athletes. [ AX ]

Facebook: ATHLEAN-X

Greatest Physiques: Jeff Cavaliere

Instagram: ATHLEAN-X

LinkedIn: Jeff Cavaliere

Website: ATHLEAN-X

X: @trainer2thepros

YouTube Channel: ATHLEAN-X

Transcript

Show transcript