podcast Peter Attia 2024-03-04 topics

#292 ‒ Rucking: benefits, gear, FAQs, and the journey from Special Forces to founding GORUCK | Jason McCarthy

Audio

Show notes

Jason McCarthy is a former US Special Forces member and the founder of GORUCK , a company specializing in rucking equipment. In this episode, Jason recounts his journey from military service to navigating the challenging transition back into civilian life and ultimately embracing the mission of introducing rucking to the masses. Delving into the significance of rucking in military training and its applicability to the wider population, he discusses the mental and physical benefits of rucking as a mode of training, provides practical tips for beginners, and answers frequently asked questions about packs, weights, footwear, and more.

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We discuss:

Jason’s upbringing and what inspired him to join the military [3:15];
Jason’s path to becoming a Green Beret, his calling to serve, and staying true to oneself [10:30];
About the Green Berets: their role in the military, the unique abilities, missions, and more [20:00];
The mental and physical challenges of special forces training and selection [25:00];
Rucking challenges as a Green Beret [37:00];
How Jason trained in his off time and stayed mentally prepared [46:30];
Jason’s difficult decision to leave the army, and the challenges many veterans face returning to civilian life [51:30];
Jason’s struggles after leaving the army: loss of identity, feelings of shame, and the how he overcame a period of despair [57:15];
The origin of GORUCK [1:10:30];
The GORUCK Challenge [1:24:30];
The company’s evolution from event organizer to manufacturing specialist spurred by the growing interest in rucking as a form of training [1:35:30];
FAQs about rucking: packs, weight, rucksack vs. weighted vest, chest straps, and more [1:38:45];
Commemorating Normandy: GORUCK’s plans for the 80th anniversary of the Normandy landings [1:51:30];
Footwear for rucking, and how GORUCK got into the footwear business [1:57:30];
How to avoid the most common injuries from rucking, and the benefits of rucking for VO2 max, strength, and sleep quality [2:05:00];
Advice for using rucking as a mode of training, and the advantages of rucking over other forms of training [2:12:45]; and
More.

Show Notes

Notes from intro :
Jason McCarthy served in the US Special Forces from 2003-2008 He served in Iraq in 2007, where he was awarded a Bronze Star and an Army Commendation Medal He also served in Europe and West Africa in 2008
Jason currently serves on the Board of Directors for the Green Beret Foundation
He is also the founder of GORUCK , which makes rucking equipment
If you’ve been listening to this podcast lately or followed Peter on social media for the past couple years, you know how much he enjoys rucking and how much he speaks about it
Peter wanted to have Jason on this podcast to talk a little about his story Jason is not unique or alone as someone who has trained extensively using rucking Anyone in the Special Forces has done that How did Jason think about bringing this to the masses? We’ll talk a lot about Jason’s background and decision to join the military after 9/11
We talk about the training in the special forces, and how rucking has been used for many years in the military How brutal some of the rucking training sessions are
We talk about how Jason felt a little directionless when he left the military, and how this idea of creating a company that does what GORUCK does became a part of his salvation
We answer some of the more frequently asked questions about rucking Do you need a special rucksack or can you use just a backpack? The difference between a rucksack and a weight vest How to think about how much weight to use Should you use a chest strap or a hip belt? Differences in types of footwear, and what the pros and cons are around that Common injuries and how to avoid them The frequency you should be doing it when you’re starting out How to train for longer rucking events
In many ways this both a story of Jason and rucking, and it’s also a very practical how-to guide
Peter has wanted to do this episode for a long time now because he gets so many questions about rucking And Peter does not consider himself an expert He also thought it would be really great to have this information all in one place
Peter’s hope at the end of this is that everybody decides to do some form of rucking, at least once and a while
He served in Iraq in 2007, where he was awarded a Bronze Star and an Army Commendation Medal
He also served in Europe and West Africa in 2008
Jason is not unique or alone as someone who has trained extensively using rucking Anyone in the Special Forces has done that
How did Jason think about bringing this to the masses?
We’ll talk a lot about Jason’s background and decision to join the military after 9/11
Anyone in the Special Forces has done that
How brutal some of the rucking training sessions are
Do you need a special rucksack or can you use just a backpack?
The difference between a rucksack and a weight vest
How to think about how much weight to use
Should you use a chest strap or a hip belt?
Differences in types of footwear, and what the pros and cons are around that
Common injuries and how to avoid them
The frequency you should be doing it when you’re starting out
How to train for longer rucking events
And Peter does not consider himself an expert
He also thought it would be really great to have this information all in one place

Jason’s upbringing and what inspired him to join the military [3:15]

People who listen to this podcast have heard Peter talk about rucking a lot over the past year or two
Peter points back a lot to Jason and Michael Easter [Michael was a guest in episodes #225 and #284 ]
We are going to talk a lot about rucking today, and Peter think’s it’s important for people to understand what it is and how-tos
To put Jason’s mission in context, it makes sense to understand his journey
[Michael was a guest in episodes #225 and #284 ]

Where Jason grew up and his background in the military

Jason was born in Ohio
His mom was really young when she had him (age 18)
They moved to Gainesville, Florida, and Jason was the unofficial mascot for the women’s tennis team (go Gators)
He bounced around with his mom and was very close to her
The military was not really a thing for him early on His grandfather fought in Korea as an artillery officer, but he never talked about it His uncle was a helicopter pilot, but Jason didn’t see him that much
His grandfather fought in Korea as an artillery officer, but he never talked about it
His uncle was a helicopter pilot, but Jason didn’t see him that much

Was your dad in the picture?

He was and still very much is
He’s still in Ohio along with both sets of grandparents
His parents were in high school together
Ohio was always a grounding thing for him, and his grandparents had an extraordinary amount of influence on his life

In college, what did you want to do?

To give the timeline, Jason went to Bolles School in Jacksonville, FL It’s a very competitive athletic school High school was the hardest thing he’s ever done The English department kicked his butt He had 8 classes and would rather go back to the Special Forces Qualification Course than do a year of English at Bolles
Jason played tennis and a little basketball
Growing up, he was always into sports and being really active
He didn’t know what he was going to do with his life
He wasn’t good enough to play tennis at a big school
He played D3 tennis at Emory in Atlanta That was a great way for him to focus
At Emory, he studied economics and art history Both of his grandmothers were docents at the Dayton Art Institute in Ohio Being in art museums was an important part of how he grew up
He did well in college and graduated in May of 2001 He was very focused in college
After college, he remembers applying to places that people told him he should: your bank, your consulting firm At age 22, he didn’t know what any of that was What do you do at Goldman Sachs or McKinsey if you’re 22? Importantly, you pay your dues
Jaysons explains, “ You have to figure out how to get into these larger organizations, and I didn’t know how to do that yet. ”
So he went and traveled around Central America and backpacked a little bit, then came back and got a job working at a call center of a marketing firm in Dayton Beach on 9/11 Literally across the street from the racetrack
That was the day that anybody that was alive remembers exactly where they were on 9/11
It’s a very competitive athletic school
High school was the hardest thing he’s ever done The English department kicked his butt He had 8 classes and would rather go back to the Special Forces Qualification Course than do a year of English at Bolles
The English department kicked his butt
He had 8 classes and would rather go back to the Special Forces Qualification Course than do a year of English at Bolles
That was a great way for him to focus
Both of his grandmothers were docents at the Dayton Art Institute in Ohio
Being in art museums was an important part of how he grew up
He was very focused in college
At age 22, he didn’t know what any of that was
What do you do at Goldman Sachs or McKinsey if you’re 22? Importantly, you pay your dues
Importantly, you pay your dues
Literally across the street from the racetrack

For Jason, it was just this enormous sense of sadness and anger that led to rage, and as a 22 years old, military aged male, with no dependants, no attachments, he felt compelled to serve our country

Saying you want to serve, watching the night vision goggles (NVGs) and everything is in green on CNN is a lot different that actually signing up to go fight in a time of war
Jason looked at all kinds of places: the CIA, the FBI, the whole alphabet soup universe Those places take a long time to get into, and rightfully so Even though he had just gone to college The application process is long
It was a time when everybody wanted to serve our country and you couldn’t just walk up, pick your branch, and become an officer There was a line a mile long of young people that wanted to serve our country because of what happened at 9/11
Now it’s 2003 and he had started working at a bank in DC and is still applying to places It keeps not clicking
Those places take a long time to get into, and rightfully so Even though he had just gone to college
The application process is long
Even though he had just gone to college
There was a line a mile long of young people that wanted to serve our country because of what happened at 9/11
It keeps not clicking

What happened in that year and a half between 9/11 and early 2003?

He felt really down where he was in Daytona Beach and Jacksonville Beach, he felt really far away from what was going on
He went and visited some friends in New York and being at Ground Zero just felt very communal in a positive way It felt like that’s where the decisions were being made It felt like that was just such an important place at that time, and he wanted to see it
He went to New York in October of 2001, and you could smell it anywhere you were
God bless the people that worked through that Day after day, they just pulled bodies out of the rubble
Jason still gets goosebumps when he thinks about the amount of sacrifice and the service that went into that day and then to the handoff to the military
The military is kind of a family business, and you’re best served, if you’re familiar with what that looks like
It felt like that’s where the decisions were being made
It felt like that was just such an important place at that time, and he wanted to see it
Day after day, they just pulled bodies out of the rubble

Jason’s path to becoming a Green Beret, his calling to serve, and staying true to oneself [10:30]

Peter points out that in late ‘01 and most of ‘02 presumably anybody could walk into a recruiting office and join the Marines or join the Army or things like that (not necessarily special forces)

Was that something you were thinking of or were you still thinking you wanted to be in the CIA or something?

Johnny Michael Spann died, and his story was very inspirational for Jason He was the first casualty of the war And he was in the ground branch or the paramilitary side of the CIA He had come over from the Marines and he was chosen for that mission This was the John Walker Lindh prison uprising where Mike Spann died He had special language skills, which was why he was given that mission
He was the first casualty of the war
And he was in the ground branch or the paramilitary side of the CIA
He had come over from the Marines and he was chosen for that mission This was the John Walker Lindh prison uprising where Mike Spann died
He had special language skills, which was why he was given that mission
This was the John Walker Lindh prison uprising where Mike Spann died

Jason realized what he wanted to do: he wanted to be on the tip of the spear serving our country

That led him down the path of the CIA, and it’s a long process He went through almost all of it He was 22 years old, a very active person, and he wanted to join the paramilitary side of the CIA
The CIA doesn’t take people and turn them into soldiers It takes very, very well-trained, highly experienced soldiers, and it plugs them into a different mission set Jason didn’t know any of that
There were lots of one-on-one interviews, and there was this guy interviewing him who finally told him, “ Look we don’t train… We don’t train people off the street to go do this. You need to go join the special forces, or you need to do something like that inside of the military first and then come and work with us ” Jason kept asking how he could get this, and finally a year later he got the answer
So he doubled down on the officer route again because he felt like that was what he should be doing If you have a college degree you can go the officer route rather than the enlisted route (right out of high school)
There are far fewer numbers of officers, and those numbers are determined by Congress
The enlisted ranks can grow very quickly
He went through almost all of it
He was 22 years old, a very active person, and he wanted to join the paramilitary side of the CIA
It takes very, very well-trained, highly experienced soldiers, and it plugs them into a different mission set Jason didn’t know any of that
Jason didn’t know any of that
Jason kept asking how he could get this, and finally a year later he got the answer
If you have a college degree you can go the officer route rather than the enlisted route (right out of high school)

Fast forward and now there’s the buildup to Iraq

Jason knows what it felt like to live in America at that time We started to become very divisive and all that, which put some strain on his thought process
He joined up to go to Afghanistan and fight Al-Qaeda But ultimately, you don’t get to choose, when you’re serving
He remembers reading the Generation Kill series that came out in Rolling Stone, and it was written about the recon Marines that took Baghdad That was March ‘03 It was later made into TV series, movie, and stuff
He thought, “ Man, these wars are passing me by. ” Little did he know that they would go on for so long It just felt like he needed to do something
So he bypassed the officer route and started talking to the Army They had this program where you could enlist and they would guarantee you slots into the schools that comprise the special forces pipeline The only caveat is you got to keep making it There’s a lot of different schools in that pipeline It starts out with basic training, and airborne school, and then a prep course, and then selection, and then another prep course, and then phase 2 and phase 3 and phase 4, and survival school, and language school and all sorts of stuff And so you just have to keep making it through and then they give you that little green beret and you feel like you’re king of the world
We started to become very divisive and all that, which put some strain on his thought process
But ultimately, you don’t get to choose, when you’re serving
That was March ‘03
It was later made into TV series, movie, and stuff
Little did he know that they would go on for so long
It just felt like he needed to do something
They had this program where you could enlist and they would guarantee you slots into the schools that comprise the special forces pipeline The only caveat is you got to keep making it There’s a lot of different schools in that pipeline It starts out with basic training, and airborne school, and then a prep course, and then selection, and then another prep course, and then phase 2 and phase 3 and phase 4, and survival school, and language school and all sorts of stuff And so you just have to keep making it through and then they give you that little green beret and you feel like you’re king of the world
The only caveat is you got to keep making it
There’s a lot of different schools in that pipeline
It starts out with basic training, and airborne school, and then a prep course, and then selection, and then another prep course, and then phase 2 and phase 3 and phase 4, and survival school, and language school and all sorts of stuff
And so you just have to keep making it through and then they give you that little green beret and you feel like you’re king of the world

In the Army, they basically said, “You will be able to rise to the level of your capacity.”

And you have to get lucky If you get injured, you get recycled
Part of the calculus is that there are a lot of infantry options in the Army You can go through basic training and join the infantry When you’re infantry qualified, you can serve in the 101st You can go to Airborne School, and now you can serve in the 82nd Airborne or whatever the case may be
You can still fight and that’s what Jason wanted to do was fight It’s odd because he was not a kid that started fights He just wanted to fight for our country
If you get injured, you get recycled
You can go through basic training and join the infantry
When you’re infantry qualified, you can serve in the 101st
You can go to Airborne School, and now you can serve in the 82nd Airborne or whatever the case may be
It’s odd because he was not a kid that started fights
He just wanted to fight for our country

Where do you think that came from?

Did you talk about this with any of your friends in college? Did you get the sense that any of them felt similarly compelled, and if not, why do you think this was unique to you?

Jason has thought about this and doesn’t really understand
Out of his high school class, there were 2 of them that joined the military
Jason’s wife would join the CIA later and serve on the front lines in Africa
There were 3 of them in a class of 150, 160 who all graduated in ‘97 They all graduated from college in ‘01
In college, there was an ROTC program at Emory which Jason thought wa a little bit odd
Both of his grandfathers revered the military They had both worked really hard and been successful, both loved our country
But one thing Jason doesn’t think his grandfather got right, he had this idea after Black Hawk Down in Mogadishu with Bill Clinton that, “ Nobody should ever serve in this man’s military. ” Jason thinks that that’s a very knee-jerk and a very human reaction to say when you don’t like someone politically
But you always need people to serve this country, or else everything that we hold dear crumbles
They all graduated from college in ‘01
They had both worked really hard and been successful, both loved our country
Jason thinks that that’s a very knee-jerk and a very human reaction to say when you don’t like someone politically

In other words, the need for service should be completely nonpartisan?

Amen
It’s not just military men, Jason felt compelled to fight
He was a military aged male who had been active his whole life, who was predisposed to want to do hard things and challenges And that’s not more important or better than someone who wants to become a teacher, because we need both
Jason explains, “ It took all of the data points in my life that brought me to that point. I really wanted to do something special with my life. ” It’s a scary time How do you do that?
Did he do that by joining company A, B, C, D? No, that’s a stepping stone to something else
And that’s not more important or better than someone who wants to become a teacher, because we need both
It’s a scary time
How do you do that?
No, that’s a stepping stone to something else

“ You have to push on life and it’s going to push back and you have to learn what matters to you and what doesn’t. What are you going to do and what are you [going to] refuse to do, and for what reason? And you have to learn these things the hard way and everybody’s a little bit different .”‒ Jason McCarthy

It took 2 years after 9/11 for him to finally join
It was not an immediate thing, there was a lot of cowardice baked into that process
It was really hard, and then keeping it secret from his family His mom cried at the kitchen counter when he finally told her he joined the Army
His mom cried at the kitchen counter when he finally told her he joined the Army

Did your conviction waiver by the fall of 2003?

Peter notes that public sentiment had not fully shifted on Iraq then
He asks if Jason was thinking, “ Hey, Al-Qaeda based out of Afghanistan, probably half in Pakistan at this point, that’s where the fight is. Not sure I understand this Iraq thing. ”
Personally, Jason never really understood the buildup to Iraq WMD , he never really got it
He now has the litmus test about regret Regret is about the worst thing that you can carry around with you everywhere you go in life Most of us know when we’re going to regret something, we just don’t listen to that voice that’s inside of our head
WMD , he never really got it
Regret is about the worst thing that you can carry around with you everywhere you go in life
Most of us know when we’re going to regret something, we just don’t listen to that voice that’s inside of our head

Jason knew for a fact (politics be damned) that he would regret it for the rest of his life if he didn’t join up and serve our country at that time

It was hard ‒ he was joining up to fight, he was not becoming an officer He was going through this enlisted route to become a special forces soldier Intentionally going to fight on the tip of the spear And we were about to start a second war on a new front
What wavered was the thought, “ Oh man, did I make the wrong decision? I can probably get out of this and I can probably go try the CIA again. I can probably go cash in some favor from somebody somewhere and get an officer billet and be safer .”
Being safer doesn’t always spare you from regret In fact, it’s usually just a way to delay what you know you need to do, the right thing for you and your path
He was going through this enlisted route to become a special forces soldier
Intentionally going to fight on the tip of the spear
And we were about to start a second war on a new front
In fact, it’s usually just a way to delay what you know you need to do, the right thing for you and your path

That was a really, really hard decision and in a lot of ways, it was an extremely selfish decision; but for Jason, for the rest of his life, he had to be willing to roll the dice at that time

About the Green Berets: their role in the military, the unique abilities, missions, and more [20:00]

The main difference between Green Berets and the SEALs , the Delta SEAL Team Six, the Rangers is, those are in essence strike forces in the Marines
The Marines take the beaches, they secure the land, and then a bigger force comes in It is speed and violence of action They’re doing it with other marines
It is speed and violence of action
They’re doing it with other marines

The classic mission for the Green Berets that people will remember

Right after 9/11, a few ODAs (Operational Detachment Alphas, a team of Green Berets) went into Afghanistan into the boneyard of the Soviet Empire, and instead of fighting as the Soviets did (which is more assaulters, more helicopters, more whatever), instead of just throwing more of our own people at it, we linked up with the Northern Alliance and fought by, with, and through them in order to defeat the Taliban And that happened in under 3 months That is the sweet spot for what we in Army Special Forces Green Berets are synonymous
And that happened in under 3 months
That is the sweet spot for what we in Army Special Forces Green Berets are synonymous

How long had they been around?

June of 1952 (Korea)
Vietnam was a lot of the similar work was done with local indigenous tribes, the mountain yards in Vietnam

Green Berets are in 100 countries right now and they’re working with local forces

If you go to Africa, Green Berets are diplomats Diplomats working out of the embassy is fine, but who’s really controlling that country is the military You need military people to go and be diplomatic with those people, and we do
Diplomats working out of the embassy is fine, but who’s really controlling that country is the military
You need military people to go and be diplomatic with those people, and we do

We train up, partner forces, and then we get them to achieve our desired in state, our mission set

In the case of Afghanistan after 9/11, it was to overthrow the Taliban and do it with the minimal footprint possible So you can send very few Green Berets in and God bless the Air Force while we’re at it, because having air cover and that’s a total game changer
So you can send very few Green Berets in and God bless the Air Force while we’re at it, because having air cover and that’s a total game changer

Where did you learn the diplomatic skills to be thrown into Afghanistan and realize that you have to now work with the Northern Alliance?

Peter points out that is very different from saying, “ Hey, this is our show, ” because now you were working as partners to do this together

Was that explicitly taught? Was that part of the training or are they selecting for that as they’re weeding people out?

The guys who were one those teams were some of Jason’s cadre: Triple Nickel, ODA 555, 595 Those guys had just come back
It was part of the selection process
Those guys had just come back

When you get into it, whether it’s the military or business or anything, so much is determined by who you serve with and what you are looking for out of the people

You need this strong culture
The question, “ Do you play well with others? ” is very much part of the Special Forces pipeline, and there’s a language component You have to be able to speak a foreign language
You have to be able to speak a foreign language

How long did it take you to learn a foreign language?

He already spoke German because he had studied abroad and lived in Germany for over a year

The culminating exercise of the Special Forces Qualification Course is called Robin Sage

It’s a mock war spread out all over North Carolina
He jumped out of an airplane with 125 pounds on a rucksack between his legs And then you land, it hurts Then we rucked for 18+ hours (with 125 lbs on their back)
They rucked to link up with what is a gorilla chief (a warlord)
And you’re testing your ability to think in a gray area because the military is very doctrinally based It’s black, it’s white: if this happens, you do this; if that happens, you do that And this is a world where the warlords have malleable morals
So you roll up and this is your point of contact and there’s an execution that happens within 4 minutes of you being there This is in the training environment, but this is real This is exactly how it happens
You think, “ Well, how can you not lose your cool? ” You lose your cool, you burn rapport; you’re done You have sacrificed the mission because of your dogmatic principles that you brought with you from America And if you don’t like that, don’t leave our shores and don’t take this job because you have to learn how to conduct yourself like that because you still need to work with them
If you don’t work with the Northern Alliance, you’re going to lose against the Taliban
And then you land, it hurts
Then we rucked for 18+ hours (with 125 lbs on their back)
It’s black, it’s white: if this happens, you do this; if that happens, you do that
And this is a world where the warlords have malleable morals
This is in the training environment, but this is real
This is exactly how it happens
You lose your cool, you burn rapport; you’re done You have sacrificed the mission because of your dogmatic principles that you brought with you from America
And if you don’t like that, don’t leave our shores and don’t take this job because you have to learn how to conduct yourself like that because you still need to work with them
You have sacrificed the mission because of your dogmatic principles that you brought with you from America

The mental and physical challenges of special forces training and selection [25:00]

Most people are familiar with what Hell Week is like for the SEALs and their underwater demolition ( BUD/S ), that they go through for months leading up to it
Peter has 3 good friends who are former SEALs, and they’re very much like Jason, which is to say they’re not what people would expect stereotypically These aren’t super aggressive individuals
These aren’t super aggressive individuals

What predicts a person’s success going through that grueling series of physical tests?

And knowing what you know today, having the mental toughness you have today, could you physically go back and do it again?

What was physically involved in the most demanding part of that training?

You see this stuff on the Discovery Channel, and you think that that’s what it is The yelling and the screaming (which plays really well on TV) That part is laughable It’s very short: hours out of years of training was yelling
The yelling and the screaming (which plays really well on TV) That part is laughable
It’s very short: hours out of years of training was yelling
That part is laughable

The hardest thing that you’re competing against is your own mind

Rucking is the foundation of special forces training

What Jason has done at GORUCK is very much tapped into this (we’ve not invented this)
What Jason learned, he owes to the people that taught him It’s a tribal culture, and he’s grateful that he was able to share some time with them in that regimen
He had no idea what rucking was when he joined the Army
He started out doing stuff in the gym on normal stuff that you would do with the mirrors everywhere and people, and then he ran a lot thinking, “ Okay, I’ll cardio and I’ll get strong. ” It’s better than nothing You need to have miles on your legs and you need to be strong
But that is not what this is about
In Special Forces selection, ultimately to be a great teammate, you first have to be a great individual So they test you really, really hard to make sure that you are the type of individual that has the ability to do really, really hard things and not quit
You start out with 45 lbs dry weight: meaning water doesn’t count, any consumables don’t count They weigh you when you get there
It’s a tribal culture, and he’s grateful that he was able to share some time with them in that regimen
It’s better than nothing
You need to have miles on your legs and you need to be strong
So they test you really, really hard to make sure that you are the type of individual that has the ability to do really, really hard things and not quit
They weigh you when you get there

“ Don’t be late, light, or last are the rules .”‒ Jason McCarthy

There’s a series of checkpoints that you get throughout the pine forests outside Fort Bragg at a place called Camp McCall
You’re just doing land navigation: route, after route, after route, after route You’re plotting it with a map and compass (you have nothing)
You’re plotting it with a map and compass (you have nothing)

Are you doing this alone or in teams?

To start out, it’s always alone
You have to be a great individual first
You learn stuff like: If you plot this route, you get water, you get vegetation (thorn bushes), and that’s going to slow you down You would get there and the vegetation is so thick, you lose which direction you’re going You get all turned around because you’re trying to save 2 miles of walking around this draw, this heavy vegetation next to the water Your feet hurt, you’ve got blisters because you’ve put so many miles on them on uneven ground Your feet get wet, which makes it harder
If you plot this route, you get water, you get vegetation (thorn bushes), and that’s going to slow you down You would get there and the vegetation is so thick, you lose which direction you’re going You get all turned around because you’re trying to save 2 miles of walking around this draw, this heavy vegetation next to the water
Your feet hurt, you’ve got blisters because you’ve put so many miles on them on uneven ground
Your feet get wet, which makes it harder
You would get there and the vegetation is so thick, you lose which direction you’re going
You get all turned around because you’re trying to save 2 miles of walking around this draw, this heavy vegetation next to the water

What would be a typical distance for that type of navigation early on?

You’re doing it overnight, 5 points, and it’s going to take you 6-8 hours It seems like forever
The Special Forces Selection (SFAS) is 3 weeks, and you’re just doing this over and over and over It doesn’t stop
It seems like forever
It doesn’t stop

Did they explain why? Did they say there is a physiological reason why rucking is the foundation of what they do?

There was zero of that
It was more, “ You’re here to be tested .”
It was silent
There was a whiteboard in the barracks, and everybody’s in there, and the cadre would write the next hit time on the white board That was the only way instructions were communicated
That was the only way instructions were communicated

The main point is if you’re looking for someone to give you more information or to help you solve your problems, you’re in the wrong place

This is not like the Army where someone’s going to walk around and make sure that you have everything
They’re going to weigh your ruck at the end of your iteration and if you’re 44.9 pounds, you’re done; adios, see you later

So you’re responsible for putting the ballast in the pack?

Oh, yeah
There were rocks everywhere
Walking around on pebbles after being out and about and your feet are sore Not just your muscles are sore, but the skin is sore You have flip flops on for the shower, and your feet are just shifting around and it hurts
They would put a little bit of that gravel in a bag and use fish scales
You can weigh your ruck, and if you’re dumb, you’re going to put 55 lbs in it If you’re smart, you’re going to put 47 lbs in (just because scales are different)
If 2 lbs is going to be what undoes you, you’ve got bigger problems
You want to make sure you’re not late, light, or last
Not just your muscles are sore, but the skin is sore
You have flip flops on for the shower, and your feet are just shifting around and it hurts
If you’re smart, you’re going to put 47 lbs in (just because scales are different)

It’s breeding this culture or autonomy and the selection process is weeding people out (self-selection)

How many people start at that 3 week selection process?

Hundreds at that time

What’s the attrition?

Maybe 20% makes it

Of the 80% who don’t make it across that 3 weeks, how many raise the flag and how many show up light (meaning they’re trying, but they fail)?

Most people self-select
They give you a flare and you’d be out in the middle of your navigation at night when it’s cold or raining The conditions of course matter And when you see people popping up their flares, that means, “ I quit. ” The cadre then comes and gets them and puts them in the back of the pickup truck and takes them to the “quitters fire” Which they conveniently locate right next to the people still going through the course They have the warm fire; don’t fall prey for that
The conditions of course matter
And when you see people popping up their flares, that means, “ I quit. ”
The cadre then comes and gets them and puts them in the back of the pickup truck and takes them to the “quitters fire” Which they conveniently locate right next to the people still going through the course They have the warm fire; don’t fall prey for that
Which they conveniently locate right next to the people still going through the course
They have the warm fire; don’t fall prey for that

The folks who end up quitting, what do they end up doing?

They serve honorably somewhere else Alaska The 82nd Airborne Straight to war
These are the people that are showing up, toeing the line
Alaska
The 82nd Airborne
Straight to war

You can’t know if you have what it takes to go through this until you go through it

Predictors of success

You need to be physically fit
You need to be able to carry weight
Jason didn’t know if he could do all that, but he figured it out

What it boils down to is there is no predictor

You can’t look at a lineup and pick out those who will succeed (the high school quarterback or statue of what physicality should be) From Jason’s experience, those are the first ones gone
Peter explains that when he asked this question to friends who are Navy Seals, that’s exactly what they said If you were the all-American captain of the water polo team that looks like an Adonis, you’re probably the first one that’s going to quit One of his friends mentioned that one of the toughest guys in their BUD/S was the most physically underwhelming person he had ever seen 5’8” with a slight build, and English wasn’t his first language (he was Mexican) He didn’t look imposing in any way, shape, or form But the guy was mentally so tough
It’s not just quitting, it’s performing It’s not enough to not quit You have to make your hit times, and then you have peer reviews to test if you play well with others
You’re stacked ranked because they put you in groups at certain points, and if you’re consistently last, the cadre start pressuring you (you don’t belong here) That starts to eat inside your brain until they’re giving you the words that you’re going to tell yourself Then once you tell yourself for the last time, then you’re gone All you have to do is say, “ I quit. I’m done .” Jason doesn’t even like to even use those words
That’s the beauty of it: it’s the unknown and you have to push someone
It won’t work in 2 days; it won’t work in 5 days You have to push this over days and weeks and months because you’re just wearing down someone’s will, because it gets hard
From Jason’s experience, those are the first ones gone
If you were the all-American captain of the water polo team that looks like an Adonis, you’re probably the first one that’s going to quit
One of his friends mentioned that one of the toughest guys in their BUD/S was the most physically underwhelming person he had ever seen 5’8” with a slight build, and English wasn’t his first language (he was Mexican) He didn’t look imposing in any way, shape, or form But the guy was mentally so tough
5’8” with a slight build, and English wasn’t his first language (he was Mexican)
He didn’t look imposing in any way, shape, or form
But the guy was mentally so tough
It’s not enough to not quit
You have to make your hit times, and then you have peer reviews to test if you play well with others
That starts to eat inside your brain until they’re giving you the words that you’re going to tell yourself
Then once you tell yourself for the last time, then you’re gone
All you have to do is say, “ I quit. I’m done .” Jason doesn’t even like to even use those words
Jason doesn’t even like to even use those words
You have to push this over days and weeks and months because you’re just wearing down someone’s will, because it gets hard

How old are you now, and how old were you when you did this?

Jason is 44 now and he was about 24 when he did this

Could you do it again?

Jason would love to say yes, but the risk is much higher now just because injuries are so much more prevalent, and you don’t recover as quickly
Peter is amazed because every one of his friends who were SEALs said the same thing Your mind is clearly at least as strong as it was when you were in your 20s The fundamental difference is you don’t have the recovery capacity today that you had in your 20s They all said no for the same reason
Jason has another buddy who was an enlisted Green Beret for a long time and then just went back and joined the Officer Corps To do that for the infantry, he had to go back to Ranger School Ranger School is 62 days He did that and he’s a couple of years younger than Jason is Yes, you can do that
The volume of ocean work at BUD/S is really, really, really significant They’re feeding you a lot at BUD/S They don’t feed you in the Q course
Your mind is clearly at least as strong as it was when you were in your 20s
The fundamental difference is you don’t have the recovery capacity today that you had in your 20s
They all said no for the same reason
To do that for the infantry, he had to go back to Ranger School Ranger School is 62 days
He did that and he’s a couple of years younger than Jason is Yes, you can do that
Ranger School is 62 days
Yes, you can do that
They’re feeding you a lot at BUD/S
They don’t feed you in the Q course

How much weight did you lose?

In certain phases he was down to 180, and they laughed and called him Skeletor by the end He was tall and skinny He had to work really hard
He thought you were supposed to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Rambo or these guys who had played Green Berets
He was tall and skinny
He had to work really hard

What Jason found is that you can never be too strong, but you can definitely be too big

The more weight that you have on your body that’s nonfunctional, the more you have to carry around with every step, that makes you slower And you don’t want to do that
How do you become this kind of lean, super medium-sized, perfect specimen of efficiency? Naturally it does that for you because you’re just rucking so, so much
And you don’t want to do that
Naturally it does that for you because you’re just rucking so, so much

How were you being fed throughout these training activities?

MREs , boxes
There was a little bit of time at the chow hall at Camp McCall, but not really You just don’t have time for it
You just don’t have time for it

What’s in the MREs?

A couple of thousand calories of stuff that’ll last 10 years
They’ve gotten pretty good, and hunger is the best sauce
Jason recalls, “ One of the phases we went dumpster diving and we found a whole bunch of stuff, and we ate it and it was incredible. It’s one of the best meals I’ve ever had .”

Rucking challenges as a Green Beret [37:00]

The 45 dry was Jason’s foray into rucking 45 dry was uneven and tank trails Tank trails are basically sandy trails that tanks would go on, on bases You can make better time on those because they’re not sloped and stuff quite as much
We would’ve straight up ruck run competitions You have to meet certain time standards on that And that is just you You have a we call a “rubber duck” version of a rifle that you have to carry with you (in your hands), which is just asymmetrical carry of several pounds for 10-12 miles Those were foot races
The 45 dry was a lot of miles across the pine forest
Then you get into team tactics, and that means you’re carrying heavier machinery Heavy machine guns, tripods, there’s more ammo At this point, it’s blanks in training There’s larger machine guns, there’s a saw You’re dispersing the load a little bit across the team, but everyone’s ruck gets a lot heavier (call it 85 pounds)
You’re patrolling much more slowly
You’re learning what a wedge is, you’re learning how to do ambushes and raids, and you’re getting to an attack point and you’re setting your rucks down You’re going lighter to attack a target, and then you’re back to your rucks, and then you’re egressing with your rucks
45 dry was uneven and tank trails Tank trails are basically sandy trails that tanks would go on, on bases You can make better time on those because they’re not sloped and stuff quite as much
Tank trails are basically sandy trails that tanks would go on, on bases
You can make better time on those because they’re not sloped and stuff quite as much
You have to meet certain time standards on that
And that is just you
You have a we call a “rubber duck” version of a rifle that you have to carry with you (in your hands), which is just asymmetrical carry of several pounds for 10-12 miles
Those were foot races
Heavy machine guns, tripods, there’s more ammo At this point, it’s blanks in training
There’s larger machine guns, there’s a saw
You’re dispersing the load a little bit across the team, but everyone’s ruck gets a lot heavier (call it 85 pounds)
At this point, it’s blanks in training
You’re going lighter to attack a target, and then you’re back to your rucks, and then you’re egressing with your rucks

Tell me about what the sacks looked like, because presumably when you’re carrying all of these trimmings, you’ve got to be strapping them on. What does the base pack look like?

The big green Army ALICE pack is enormous (80-90 liters) It doesn’t go above your head, so it’s not like the big hunting packs or whatever It’s kind of on your shoulders
And then you also had what’s called “load-bearing equipment,” this kind of vest of sorts It would have a belt on it where you would store other stuff (magazines etc.) which prevented you from using the hip belt on the ALICE pack
It doesn’t go above your head, so it’s not like the big hunting packs or whatever
It’s kind of on your shoulders
It would have a belt on it where you would store other stuff (magazines etc.) which prevented you from using the hip belt on the ALICE pack

You’ve got that big pack on your back, with or without a chest strap?

Without
There was kind of a hip belt, but it’s not really a load transfer
That’s also true in the real world of combat, you have stuff on your front that you need
Using the sternum strap and hip belts and all this stuff That’s fine if you’re going to insert over a mountain to get to your target and then drop your ruck But if you’re carrying stuff on any type of an urban assault, that’s not in line with the priorities of work Jason had his pistol His chest rig was right on his chest Magazines from his M4 were right there, and he’s not going to unclip his hip belt to then get at his ammo You want to get that ammo as fast as you possibly can
That’s fine if you’re going to insert over a mountain to get to your target and then drop your ruck
But if you’re carrying stuff on any type of an urban assault, that’s not in line with the priorities of work Jason had his pistol His chest rig was right on his chest Magazines from his M4 were right there, and he’s not going to unclip his hip belt to then get at his ammo You want to get that ammo as fast as you possibly can
Jason had his pistol
His chest rig was right on his chest
Magazines from his M4 were right there, and he’s not going to unclip his hip belt to then get at his ammo
You want to get that ammo as fast as you possibly can

So all of that load is on your shoulders?

Yes
Until you get into the 125 lb insertion and stuff, and at that point you’re doing everything that you can to carry that load You’re trying to just change it up so that the blood can flow to different places If you jack it down on your hips, great; it’ll give your shoulders a little bit of relief And you jack it down on your shoulders, it’ll give your hips a little relief The blood, you can kind of feel it coming back to life It’s just such a great feeling as that happens You’re just adjusting it constantly
You’re trying to just change it up so that the blood can flow to different places
If you jack it down on your hips, great; it’ll give your shoulders a little bit of relief
And you jack it down on your shoulders, it’ll give your hips a little relief
The blood, you can kind of feel it coming back to life It’s just such a great feeling as that happens
You’re just adjusting it constantly
It’s just such a great feeling as that happens

Tell us about the 125 lb exercise. You were parachuting with that pack?

It’s a team effort to waddle to the airplane, get on, and collapse back and sit down
Then you hook up, and you’re jumping into an airstrip from 800-1000 feet (not too high)
Your parachute is coming open immediately It’s not a halo line, it’s a static jump, which basically means that your backpack at that time is your parachute, and you hook up into the side of the plane It’s like what you saw in Band of Brothers (one of the greatest series ever created) You see them hook up and then as they’re going out, the parachute deploys immediately and your rucksack is off your belt, and it’s dangling in between your legs
It’s not a halo line, it’s a static jump, which basically means that your backpack at that time is your parachute, and you hook up into the side of the plane It’s like what you saw in Band of Brothers (one of the greatest series ever created)
You see them hook up and then as they’re going out, the parachute deploys immediately and your rucksack is off your belt, and it’s dangling in between your legs
It’s like what you saw in Band of Brothers (one of the greatest series ever created)

What’s holding it? Are you holding it with your hands?

No, it’s attached to your belt, and then you lower it down (there’s a lowering line) Right before you land, you lower it down because if you don’t, the risk of injury (breaking your legs or whatever), the way that you would fall would be harder
In a parachute landing fall, you land with 2 feet and then you kind of roll your legs over to disperse the force against your body (it still hurts) You fall faster with all that weight and you land, you hit like a sack of potatoes Jason remembers landing: he wiggles his toes and my knees like, all right, nothing’s broken Good. Get up.
Then you’ve got to get that thing on, and you’re getting on all 4s You get it on and roll over like a dog and grabbing the back of your hamstringing to pull one of your legs forward and then pressing up
Once you have your team, 1 person does not have a ruck on, they help you and then you help somebody else get up
Once you get it up, it’s easier (it’s still really hard, but it’s easier)
It’s a team effort to get down and then get back up, and it’s just excruciating
Right before you land, you lower it down because if you don’t, the risk of injury (breaking your legs or whatever), the way that you would fall would be harder
You fall faster with all that weight and you land, you hit like a sack of potatoes
Jason remembers landing: he wiggles his toes and my knees like, all right, nothing’s broken Good. Get up.
Good. Get up.
You get it on and roll over like a dog and grabbing the back of your hamstringing to pull one of your legs forward and then pressing up

If that’s going to be the hardest thing in your life, you’re also in the wrong business because that’s basically just physically demanding and some of the other problems

What was the physical part of that? How long did you guys have to go?

18 hours and it’s just horrific
It’s so slow
It’s in a combat situation
They have timelines you’re trying to hit (it really sucks)
It’s North Carolina pine forest There’s some hills, not hard balls (it’s not concrete)
There’s some hills, not hard balls (it’s not concrete)

How often do you take the pack off to rest?

You just want to get there
All of a sudden they simulate that there’s potential enemy over there; hide
The last thing you want to do is stop because you just want to keep going and get there That starts to eat away at you; it’s all you can think about
The only thing Jason would equate it to is being cold It just starts to consume your thoughts no matter what’s going on If you’re that cold, it just eats away at you And that pack at that weight just eats away at you You can’t think tactically Head on a swivel paying attention to enemies, it doesn’t happen Commanders are susceptible to risk aversion (as we all are) You need to have everything in order to be prepared for this mission
There’s this other maxim which is “speed is security”
If there’s greater assumption of some risk, if you have fewer things but you have greater speed, that’s a worthwhile thing to consider How do you achieve mission success? Do you actually need 125 pounds? But that’s beside the point in training At this phase of your training, you are in really good rucking shape You are in really good shape of everything
This is the beginning of a mock war, and they need to make sure that you are exhausted and not thinking lucidly
They need to make sure that you can operate under conditions of extreme stress They do that, and it’s very effective
The thing is that when you go through that, when you are done, you know that you did something You can’t cheat yourself You know what you had to do to do it
That starts to eat away at you; it’s all you can think about
It just starts to consume your thoughts no matter what’s going on
If you’re that cold, it just eats away at you
And that pack at that weight just eats away at you
You can’t think tactically
Head on a swivel paying attention to enemies, it doesn’t happen Commanders are susceptible to risk aversion (as we all are) You need to have everything in order to be prepared for this mission
Commanders are susceptible to risk aversion (as we all are)
You need to have everything in order to be prepared for this mission
How do you achieve mission success?
Do you actually need 125 pounds? But that’s beside the point in training At this phase of your training, you are in really good rucking shape You are in really good shape of everything
But that’s beside the point in training
At this phase of your training, you are in really good rucking shape
You are in really good shape of everything
They do that, and it’s very effective
You can’t cheat yourself
You know what you had to do to do it

You get an amazing feeling of gratitude for the human body and the human mind; that is the gift that you get with these people that you share this sacred experience with

You don’t want to shortchange yourself of that in any way You want the full “ red pill ” experience (take the red pill, do the thing, and watch what happens to your mind when you’re done)
You want the full “ red pill ” experience (take the red pill, do the thing, and watch what happens to your mind when you’re done)

At this point, have all the people who are going to select-out done so?

Correct
Almost nobody washes out by that phase
The practicality of the Army has every incentive to weed people out as quickly as possible They don’t want to keep people in a training pipeline for years only to find out at the very end, it costs millions of dollars to do this in addition to just wasting time
The body has grown accustomed to this
You start with 45 lbs dry, you’re going at various speeds to include shuffling and fast to over uneven terrain
You’re getting up to 85 lbs
You’re starting to know that this is really vital to your ability to operate and do this job You start to take it upon yourself to do this, which Jason did a lot of
They don’t want to keep people in a training pipeline for years only to find out at the very end, it costs millions of dollars to do this in addition to just wasting time
You start to take it upon yourself to do this, which Jason did a lot of

Jason started rucking a lot (on his own time) because that was the thing that he needed to do to achieve mission success and pass this damn course

How much time did you have for yourself?

You would go through a phase, and then sometimes it would be a month until the next phase started
There were so many people going through at that time, slots and phases and all this
They just needed a lot of people to do this job
So you have to maintain your degree of physicality, that’s part of it

How Jason trained in his off time and stayed mentally prepared [46:30]

What workouts would you do on your own when you were at home for a month to stay in shape?

On base, Jason would go and park at one of the gyms, and he would go on long rucks of varying degree of weight There’s tank trails everywhere
He would also do things to harden his feet and keep them hard CliffsNotes version: start out with thin, thin socks, and if you develop any hotspots, wring those socks out or trade your socks and keep going But, don’t let it develop until it gets blisters The hotspots will eventually turn into calluses if you treat them correctly You start getting blisters, and blisters have no bearing on your physical performance other than that they go straight to your brain like, “ This is so much pain. And you just start to think about it, and it consumes you .”
There’s tank trails everywhere
CliffsNotes version: start out with thin, thin socks, and if you develop any hotspots, wring those socks out or trade your socks and keep going
But, don’t let it develop until it gets blisters
The hotspots will eventually turn into calluses if you treat them correctly
You start getting blisters, and blisters have no bearing on your physical performance other than that they go straight to your brain like, “ This is so much pain. And you just start to think about it, and it consumes you .”

So you have to start to think about how you prepare your feet for this? How do I do this?

Jason would put a lot of miles in and then would do these mad dashes into the gym

He never actually loved going inside of the gym
He would put headphones in
This is back in the federal laden universe of when pre-game was really pre-game workout
He’d go into the gym like a madman He didn’t know what he was doing
CrossFit started midway through the Q Course , and that was an interesting thing It was sandbags and pull up bars and stuff like that One of the guys came out, they had these 2 instructions: it was razor and blade (awesome call signs), and he’s like, “ Man, there’s this new thing called CrossFit, and it is awesome, high intensity training. And this is what you need to be the heroes that your country demands of you at this point. It is so good. It is so fast. ”
We would do one CrossFit workout, and then we’d go on a 10-mile run or ruck, and then we’d come back and do another CrossFit workout It was so simple
You don’t cheat yourself because if you look around and see anybody cheating, you do not want to serve with them That was motivation right there
He didn’t know what he was doing
It was sandbags and pull up bars and stuff like that
One of the guys came out, they had these 2 instructions: it was razor and blade (awesome call signs), and he’s like, “ Man, there’s this new thing called CrossFit, and it is awesome, high intensity training. And this is what you need to be the heroes that your country demands of you at this point. It is so good. It is so fast. ”
It was so simple
That was motivation right there

There was this culture of iron sharpening iron all the time, and you just live like that (animalistic in a good way)

On his own time, Jason swam a lot

Jason dedicated himself to becoming the best he could be

He could control those variable but he can’t control unconventional warfare He can’t control the problems that they’re going to give him He can’t control his perfect reaction to this or that (it’s unknowable)
He doesn’t know what these things are going to be, but he knows the best thing he can do is to set himself up for the optimum physical response that he has to anything
At times he found some of the doctrinal things that they were teaching to be a huge challenge Linear ambush versus an L-shaped ambush Like why are we doing this and you’re asking that question? It was like, why don’t you low crawl for the next hours until you come up with a good answer for that question Okay, got it ‒ no more questions college boy
He can’t control the problems that they’re going to give him
He can’t control his perfect reaction to this or that (it’s unknowable)
Linear ambush versus an L-shaped ambush
Like why are we doing this and you’re asking that question? It was like, why don’t you low crawl for the next hours until you come up with a good answer for that question Okay, got it ‒ no more questions college boy
It was like, why don’t you low crawl for the next hours until you come up with a good answer for that question
Okay, got it ‒ no more questions college boy

Some of these were really hard, but Jason found that he could make it up to the team by just being in great shape, carrying more weight longer, and doing it with smile on his face

That was the variable that he controlled
He took up a lot of swimming personally
There was this hippie street in North Carolina called Hay Street where there was a yoga studio Jason told nobody he was doing yoga every day when he wasn’t out in the field He was doing it because he wanted to not get injured Because the volume of work and reps, you can feel it (you’re getting sore) It’s just a lot of weight and miles and reps He wanted to set himself up for success
He started getting his ass kicked by these older ladies at this yoga studio They probably knew he was in the Army, but he was trying to camouflage that He didn’t want to talk about it
He was doing yoga to give himself a little bit of an edge
At least he thought it was an edge, and half of the battle going into anything is to go in confident If you’ve cut corners, you know it andt he cadre is going to find out But you know it and that burrows inside your brain Then when something doesn’t go your way, you start to play the “what if” game (so dangerous)
Jason explains, “ If you’ve done what you can do and you show up ready, the outcome is going to be what it’s going to be. And so I was committed to that process and I really am grateful that I had that opportunity to see what I was made of according to a standard that I had nothing to do with establishing. ”
Jason told nobody he was doing yoga every day when he wasn’t out in the field
He was doing it because he wanted to not get injured Because the volume of work and reps, you can feel it (you’re getting sore) It’s just a lot of weight and miles and reps He wanted to set himself up for success
Because the volume of work and reps, you can feel it (you’re getting sore)
It’s just a lot of weight and miles and reps
He wanted to set himself up for success
They probably knew he was in the Army, but he was trying to camouflage that He didn’t want to talk about it
He didn’t want to talk about it
If you’ve cut corners, you know it andt he cadre is going to find out But you know it and that burrows inside your brain Then when something doesn’t go your way, you start to play the “what if” game (so dangerous)
But you know it and that burrows inside your brain
Then when something doesn’t go your way, you start to play the “what if” game (so dangerous)

Jason’s difficult decision to leave the army, and the challenges many veterans face returning to civilian life [51:30]

When did you go into the field?

He joined in October of 2003, earned his Green Beret in May of 2006 (in 2.5 years)
Peter remarks, “ That’s unbelievable how long that takes, right? ”

Jason knows how much he owes

He’s grateful for the amount of knowledge he got from people who had gone and done amazing things with a human spirit that is burning so brightly For them to share some of that with him throughout his training and just to breathe some of that same air
He owes at least what they gave him and more
That was sacred time for him
It got even more sacred when he got to his team and they were deployed to Iraq in 2007
For them to share some of that with him throughout his training and just to breathe some of that same air

That was a really nasty time in Iraq

A lot of guys and girls were dying in the surge that was going on
Jason was not immune to questioning his own decisions and mortality and, “ Why did I do this? ”
He then came back and served in Stuttgart , out of Germany
Then we also went down to the Islamic Republic of Mauritania and did work by with and through some of the partner forces down there for a period of time, which was great
He got out in late 2008

What determines when you’re going to get out?

Jason’s initial contract was 5 years
Jason remembers men who served in World War II storming the beaches of Normandy, most of them served for a couple of years, and then they came back and resumed a normal life They started businesses or worked for a company
Jason never had the opportunity to talk to somebody about what that was like He wasn’t able to even ask the right questions if he could have
He thought he would check the box “serve your country” and come back and be ready for McKinsey and Goldman Sachs
They started businesses or worked for a company
He wasn’t able to even ask the right questions if he could have

He thought he would come back and be ready for his regularly scheduled life, but this service to our country it changed his heart in the process

That was the hard part: when it was time to transition out

What were the options if you chose to renew that? Could you have stayed right there in the field?

Yeah, you finally start to get good at what you’re doing
You’re not just trained, you’ve actually applied your training
It’s one thing to train for war, and it’s another to fight in a war Not just physically The physical reactions are pretty straightforward
The actual emotional contemplation of your own mortality and how do you function against that? What are the quiet moments like at war when someone on another team dies or when your flag is at half mast because an IED struck someone in the next town over or whatever it might be How do you process that? And if you don’t process that, you don’t know what it’s like Jason knows what that’s like and it’s not great
He also learned how to draw strength from his team, and trust in his training and fight through it
Not just physically The physical reactions are pretty straightforward
The physical reactions are pretty straightforward
What are the quiet moments like at war when someone on another team dies or when your flag is at half mast because an IED struck someone in the next town over or whatever it might be How do you process that? And if you don’t process that, you don’t know what it’s like
Jason knows what that’s like and it’s not great
How do you process that?
And if you don’t process that, you don’t know what it’s like

What do you think it says about processing that, if anything speaks to the relative differences that people experience when they leave the military?

In other words, when you think about whether it be PTSD or lesser versions of that, do you think that that has anything to do with how one processes grief in the field?

Jason thinks the book Tribe by Sebastian Junger is a fantastic book on this It’s one of his favorites [Sebastian was a guest in episode #195 ]
Sebastian is a national treasure, the way that he brought so much of Jason’s thinking forward on this It’s not necessarily the problem of the soldiers, it’s the problem of society and just being so disconnected When you go from this culture that you’re living and breathing in with these guys that you love, you’re just so much a part of something that matters You matter to them, and they matter to you at a very deep level Your families matter to each other, and you’re motivated by the mission and service You wake up that you’re doing good and it feels really, really good When that infrastructure goes away And there are other components to that infrastructure In the military, everything’s taken care of: housing, chow halls You’re in that, and you’re allowed to focus on being a part of the team
Jason’s transition was extremely hard You just lose a sense of identity, but practically you lose a structure You lose a purpose, you lose friends
It’s one of his favorites
[Sebastian was a guest in episode #195 ]
It’s not necessarily the problem of the soldiers, it’s the problem of society and just being so disconnected
When you go from this culture that you’re living and breathing in with these guys that you love, you’re just so much a part of something that matters You matter to them, and they matter to you at a very deep level Your families matter to each other, and you’re motivated by the mission and service You wake up that you’re doing good and it feels really, really good
When that infrastructure goes away And there are other components to that infrastructure In the military, everything’s taken care of: housing, chow halls You’re in that, and you’re allowed to focus on being a part of the team
You matter to them, and they matter to you at a very deep level
Your families matter to each other, and you’re motivated by the mission and service
You wake up that you’re doing good and it feels really, really good
And there are other components to that infrastructure
In the military, everything’s taken care of: housing, chow halls
You’re in that, and you’re allowed to focus on being a part of the team
You just lose a sense of identity, but practically you lose a structure
You lose a purpose, you lose friends

How many of your brothers did you go from speaking with and seeing every day to not having contact with outside of the occasional phone call?

All of them basically
No one else he was close to was leaving at the same time in reasonable geographic proximity And that’s normal because you go back to where you are from
And that’s normal because you go back to where you are from

He is now 5 years removed from the normal structure of society

Friends he had before have moved on, they’ve probably gotten married, had kids, been promoted They’ve been at that bank for 5 years, and Jason has been doing something different
They’ve been at that bank for 5 years, and Jason has been doing something different

Jason’s struggles after leaving the army: loss of identity, feelings of shame, and the how he overcame a period of despair [57:15]

When Jason left the military, he felt like he was quitting

They went right back to Iraq
Going on in Iraq, that’s not what mattered What mattered was this team that we had and our ability to serve together, and we were safer and we were more effective and we were better able to carry out our mission together
It’s natural that people come and people go no matter what, but to do it of his own volition felt like he was quitting on my team
And that was a lot to process because then the practical side of, well, you’re giving up a job You’re giving up an income You’re giving up purpose, identity You’re giving up the structure of: you wake up, you do PT, physical training in the morning, you go for a run or a ruck or you lift weights or you do whatever There’s a lot of comradery that comes out of that, and you feel a lot better
What mattered was this team that we had and our ability to serve together, and we were safer and we were more effective and we were better able to carry out our mission together
You’re giving up an income
You’re giving up purpose, identity
You’re giving up the structure of: you wake up, you do PT, physical training in the morning, you go for a run or a ruck or you lift weights or you do whatever
There’s a lot of comradery that comes out of that, and you feel a lot better

He started to reject all of the things that he thought he didn’t love about the Arm y

The structure of “ I’m never doing PT again, never going to wake up early again .”
He thought everything was going to be efficient, so optimized, and he’s in control of his destiny all the time now
For that “freedom” he gave up a ton The freedom to go it alone, what’s the point?
It took Jason a while to rebuild a group, a team of friends or people that he wanted to do stuff with
It took him a while to be vulnerable enough to let anybody in so he wasn’t just robotic about the whole thing
He really didn’t want to talk about the Army at all
The freedom to go it alone, what’s the point?

“ I would run away from Army questions. Grew my hair out, basically had a series of, if not half-truths, just full on lies about no, I didn’t serve there .”‒ Jason McCarthy

Why do you think that was?

He felt like he’d quit and had this deep sense of shame
Jason explains, “ Why would you get out when you’re winning the Super Bowl? ”

Did you think about going back?

Yeah, very much

Jason’s personal life was very complicated

He got married a year and a half into his time in the army
They had grown up together, went to high school together, and he finally knocked that cowardice as well
Things come in twos: he joined the army and finally told the girl he loved her
The courtship was handwritten letters from basic training
Jason told her what he was doing before he joined up
We eventually got married
She eventually applied to the CIA as a language instructor They were like like, no, no, no They made her a case officer She went to the farm and graduated to become a case officer, maybe 5 days before Jason became a Green Beret She was put on a smoking hot plane to Dartford to help work on that issue right after she graduated and then was posted in war-torn, West Africa, Abidjan for 3 years after that
Jason was at Fort Carson, and then he was in Iraq and she was in West Africa
Then he was in Mauritania, and she actually visited him there They were married at this point
They were like like, no, no, no
They made her a case officer
She went to the farm and graduated to become a case officer, maybe 5 days before Jason became a Green Beret
She was put on a smoking hot plane to Dartford to help work on that issue right after she graduated and then was posted in war-torn, West Africa, Abidjan for 3 years after that
They were married at this point

Was part of the reason you left to be with your wife?

Yes, he was going to join Ground Branch
He was finally going to bo back and join where Mike Spann had served in the paramilitary side of the CIA Now, he knew the people and he brought the skill
Jason cried when he was driving out of Fort Carson You take a razor blade to your base pass, it’s on your car, it lets you slide through a certain entry point so that you don’t have to stop and do the same security as if you’re a civilian He cried all the way through Kansas, going back home to Florida to get on a plane to fly to Africa
We’re about to get on a plane to fly to Africa, and he was like, “ What is going on? ”
Now, he knew the people and he brought the skill
You take a razor blade to your base pass, it’s on your car, it lets you slide through a certain entry point so that you don’t have to stop and do the same security as if you’re a civilian
He cried all the way through Kansas, going back home to Florida to get on a plane to fly to Africa

He just did not foresee that this was a loss of something; it was a grieving process

At that point he and Em had been married for almost 5 years and never lived together That doesn’t work
The thinking was that she can’t join the Special Forces, but he could join the agency Having at least 1 boss of a company is easier to coordinate, and that was naive as well It’s really, really hard to make that stuff work, those tandem couples It’s nice in theory, but really someone has to be willing to take a backseat or else both suffer, both are compromised in their careers
That doesn’t work
Having at least 1 boss of a company is easier to coordinate, and that was naive as well It’s really, really hard to make that stuff work, those tandem couples It’s nice in theory, but really someone has to be willing to take a backseat or else both suffer, both are compromised in their careers
It’s really, really hard to make that stuff work, those tandem couples
It’s nice in theory, but really someone has to be willing to take a backseat or else both suffer, both are compromised in their careers

What happened when you got to Africa?

It was not perfect; it was about what you would expect
There was this skip to the end
Satellite phone calls on top of a bunker with mortars coming in to his wife in Africa on meetings and working 100 hours a week by Wednesday

They had just grown apart

He brought all of his baggage with him Which was he’d given up everything to be there
She was used to working and working and working Case officers are measured in scalps, meaning how many people do you recruit that are assets Just like anything else, the harder you work, the more you’ll achieve
It was hard to incorporate Jason into that
He didn’t have a job and couldn’t really work there
The embassy had openings, for a janitor He’d spend plenty of time cleaning the head and wasn’t above that But at that point in his life, he did not have the self-confidence to go from being a Green Beret to being a janitor at the US Embassy in Abidjan He couldn’t stomach that
He was there for 2 months, and then he flew back to New York and was sleeping on a buddy’s couch, trying long distance stuff
They met in Morocco The things that you do to salvage something that’s in the crash and burn phase of its time
Which was he’d given up everything to be there
Case officers are measured in scalps, meaning how many people do you recruit that are assets
Just like anything else, the harder you work, the more you’ll achieve
He’d spend plenty of time cleaning the head and wasn’t above that
But at that point in his life, he did not have the self-confidence to go from being a Green Beret to being a janitor at the US Embassy in Abidjan He couldn’t stomach that
He couldn’t stomach that
The things that you do to salvage something that’s in the crash and burn phase of its time

There is a happy ending to this

She came back to the States, and we did get divorced That’s the greatest failure of my life
Years later, we got remarried
We have a great family, and we’re very happily married and Jason can’t imagine life without her
That’s the greatest failure of my life

What’s the failure?

Divorce from the girl that he loved his entire life, not making that work

Do you think it could have worked in that first version?

Hypotheticals are a very difficult thing to answer
There are scenarios where it could have worked
It was hanging on by a thread, and then it wasn’t
The fact that it does work now is proof that yes, it could have worked
Peter suggests, “ Maybe it’s possible that it works so well now because you both lost it. ”
That could be true
Jason was used to doing well at things
He doesn’t want to rationalize something and say, “ Oh, it’s all good that this failure happened. ”

The silver lining to it was that it made him a lot more compassionate and understanding that you don’t know what people are going through, so be kind

At the time he didn’t want to talk about it
He stopped seeing people and became a hermit
It was him and his dog, a country song, and a bottle of whiskey

It was not a healthy phase in his life at all because he was out of the Army, he didn’t have a job, he didn’t have prospects for a job, and he didn’t have a marriage anymore

How are you supporting yourself?

He had a little bit of money saved up, and he didn’t have a lot of expenses

Presumably you had the GI bill and you could have gone back to grad school. Did any of these other ideas entice you?

That’s what he did
He went back to business school in DC

“ It’s another case of I’m grateful to the American taxpayer for that opportunity because as you kick this off, it’s how do you process grief, and how do you do, what is that like? PTSD… but the time that bought me to help figure my stuff out. I had a lot to offer. I just couldn’t do it at that time. ”‒ Jason McCarthy

Jason had a lot to offer; he just couldn’t do it at that time
He has a lot to offer now and is really happy to offer that to our country, the world, the next generation He’s very motivated to do that That’s in no small part because the American taxpayer was willing to finance his school for a couple years and help him transition a little bit and gain a little bit more confidence
Going through all of this, it starts to stack
Murphy is around and he’s just striking left and right
He’s very motivated to do that
That’s in no small part because the American taxpayer was willing to finance his school for a couple years and help him transition a little bit and gain a little bit more confidence

What Jason learned in SERE school (which is survival school) is everybody has a breaking point

No matter how tough you are, you will crack
Everybody cracks
It will happen, so that is a maxim for life, and to think that you won’t is just hubristic

When did you realize you were heading in that direction?

It was just really, really bad
Jason lost the desire to do anything
There wasn’t some moment; he wasn’t suicidal in that sense
He was just not well
He has a lot of energy in life: he’s active, he likes to do stuff
It took his dog (which Emily gave him); that was the greatest gift he ever got until they had kids They had 1 dog that had been with her in Africa Emily and him were still friends throughout this, oddly She looked at him and she was like, “ You need him even more than I do. You can have him .”
You could maybe even argue that they wouldn’t have gotten back together without that happening because then his life was just not good Living in a basement without any mission or purpose He had nothing to do
They had 1 dog that had been with her in Africa
Emily and him were still friends throughout this, oddly
She looked at him and she was like, “ You need him even more than I do. You can have him .”
Living in a basement without any mission or purpose
He had nothing to do

Jason asked a friend for help, which was very humiliating

Jason was the guy that doesn’t ask for help, ever That becomes your shtick and that’s what the Army is, especially Special Forces, especially these Special Operations units Yes, there’s a team component and tactically if you need help but you don’t need help solving your problems Emotional problems, you don’t bring those to the team
That becomes your shtick and that’s what the Army is, especially Special Forces, especially these Special Operations units Yes, there’s a team component and tactically if you need help but you don’t need help solving your problems Emotional problems, you don’t bring those to the team
Yes, there’s a team component and tactically if you need help but you don’t need help solving your problems
Emotional problems, you don’t bring those to the team

When you have to ask for help with emotional problems when you get out, it’s a very foreign territory, and it’s a very shameful thing

This is a problem that we need to take head on and say, “ There’s a lot of strength in asking for help, and you’re going to need it. ”
You need to be part of something bigger than yourself
You need to take care of yourself
You need to do the things that were healthy in the Army that brought you this value You need to still do those things: physical training, take your pick It’s a very social organization: you get to know the people around you, and you develop deep and lasting friendships through doing hard things That develops a lot of comradery, and you need to do those things and be active
It’s very easy to fall into this state of, “ All that’s gone. I’ll never be as cool as I was, and I don’t know what I’m going to do with the rest of my life. I don’t have any transferable skills. This is just not what I signed up for anymore .”
You can go down that spiral, and everybody’s got a breaking point
You need to still do those things: physical training, take your pick
It’s a very social organization: you get to know the people around you, and you develop deep and lasting friendships through doing hard things That develops a lot of comradery, and you need to do those things and be active
That develops a lot of comradery, and you need to do those things and be active

What year is this? How far after 2008?

It’s fast; it’s 2009
He ended up starting school late 2009
It was a full year of “not good,” but a year at that time felt like a long time
School felt like an easy thing He was like, “ Okay, I’ll go back to school, I guess. ” It didn’t feel like progress to him
He was like, “ Okay, I’ll go back to school, I guess. ”
It didn’t feel like progress to him

During that period of time, are you picking up a rucksack again?

The funny thing is, the only thing that got him off the couch was Java, his dog
Jason explains, “ I believe in community. The social health part of our lives is vital to everything that matters the most. ” To him, you + dog is foundational ‒ it’s the bare minimum for a community You +1, and for him, that was a dog
The dog had to go out, he needed exercise, he needed someone to take care of him
To him, you + dog is foundational ‒ it’s the bare minimum for a community You +1, and for him, that was a dog
You +1, and for him, that was a dog

Serving someone else (in this case a dog) was a huge unlock for him to face the world again

It’s still very humbling to think about
He’d just been this Special Forces soldier that felt like he could do anything with his team
Now, he couldn’t do anything, and it took a dog to get him out of that state

The origin of GORUCK [1:10:30]

GORUCK was in the background of all this

Emily actually had the idea for it in West Africa because Jason had built her a “go bag” full of supplies and stuff for her to put in her car and one to put at her house It was just in case
A “go bag” is what we would put in the trunk of the Humvee because if our vehicle is disabled and we have to fight, we need more bombs and ammo and water and radios and batteries and all that stuff
It was just in case

Do you have a go bag at home right now?

Yeah, it’s mostly medical stuff
Some weapons ‒ what Jason is cautious about are these times where it becomes lawless and everybody jumps on I-10 or I-95 and then people are running out of gas Whether there’s hurricanes or power outages or these things How long does that last? Who knows?
Peter agrees, “ I think a lot of people don’t remember what happened during Hurricane Katrina, which people probably remember there was a real delay on the part of the federal government in getting aid in there. ” It was surprisingly short as to how long it went from no power, no food, no water to complete lawlessness and violence (4-5 days) You could make the argument that that’s the most compelling reason for self-armament It’s not the home invasion, in bed and someone breaks into the house It’s the total societal breakdown that comes with a natural disaster or something like that
Jason points out that you’re more likely to hurt someone you love in the situation where there’s a robber in your house Just give them everything These are only things; this doesn’t matter The idea that you’re going to shoot someone cold in your hallway? You have to be extremely well-trained, and you have to be able to target and discriminate and make sure it’s not a bad guy Is this your first time in that kind of situation? If so, you’re stressed In the middle of the night, you’ve just been woken up Go shoot with a heart rate of 160 sometime and see how you’re doing (it’s hard) Those are not Jason’s deep dark fears
The worst case scenario are the natural disasters and stuff like that
Whether there’s hurricanes or power outages or these things
How long does that last? Who knows?
It was surprisingly short as to how long it went from no power, no food, no water to complete lawlessness and violence (4-5 days) You could make the argument that that’s the most compelling reason for self-armament It’s not the home invasion, in bed and someone breaks into the house It’s the total societal breakdown that comes with a natural disaster or something like that
You could make the argument that that’s the most compelling reason for self-armament
It’s not the home invasion, in bed and someone breaks into the house
It’s the total societal breakdown that comes with a natural disaster or something like that
Just give them everything
These are only things; this doesn’t matter
The idea that you’re going to shoot someone cold in your hallway? You have to be extremely well-trained, and you have to be able to target and discriminate and make sure it’s not a bad guy Is this your first time in that kind of situation? If so, you’re stressed In the middle of the night, you’ve just been woken up Go shoot with a heart rate of 160 sometime and see how you’re doing (it’s hard)
Those are not Jason’s deep dark fears
You have to be extremely well-trained, and you have to be able to target and discriminate and make sure it’s not a bad guy
Is this your first time in that kind of situation?
If so, you’re stressed
In the middle of the night, you’ve just been woken up
Go shoot with a heart rate of 160 sometime and see how you’re doing (it’s hard)

Jason has a go bag and a med pack in the back of his truck, and his office is a safe house

When Jason and Emily were trying to figure out what he was going to do when he was in Africa

She suggested he go do the ruck thing
They called it a go bag, go ruck
They had a S-O-P (standard operating procedures) for what would go in their go bags He tailored it to what they had there He just used an extra bag that he had brought with him It was for just in case
What she meant was to take the Special Forces way of life
Jason built a go bag for Emily’s boss and another person at the embassy
He thought he could fill a year doing this Upgrade people’s home security and teach them a little bit about what to do just in case
He tailored it to what they had there
He just used an extra bag that he had brought with him
It was for just in case
Upgrade people’s home security and teach them a little bit about what to do just in case

The idea was born in West Africa but the business did not start there

There was a language barrier because everyone spoke French
The import/export business of using diplomatic pouches to send stuff to populate people’s go bags
Building a business from scratch in West Africa as a diplomatic spouse, your marriage better be on perfect ground, and you better be in there for the long haul
The smash and grab year that Jason was going to have doing that would not have worked, but the idea endured

Jason moved back, and he was just still searching for something to do

He needed a hobby, and this became a hobby
But these bags were too military, and he didn’t want anything to do with the military
He needed to make them less military but still awesome like the ones he had in the military
He put an ad in Craigslist, New York City for a backpack designer, got a bunch of people that wrote in and found this couple that was in Bozeman, Montana

That started a year and a half-ish process of working with them on a couple prototypes

What were the specs that you gave them?

Jason started out with an old assault pack that he had
An assault pack is a stripped down version that you would take on an assault When you think about assaulting in places around the world, doorways are narrow, and you’re in a stack to go into a room (meaning there’s 4 of you, and you’re as close as you can possibly get) You can’t have these huge rucks because you’re going in and clearing the room, milliseconds are life You have to have really small silhouettes of stuff and more what you would associate with an urban style backpack, not a big giant hiking pack or a big giant ALICE military pack or whatever
They started with one of the assault packs and stripped away all the stuff that made it look too military
When you think about assaulting in places around the world, doorways are narrow, and you’re in a stack to go into a room (meaning there’s 4 of you, and you’re as close as you can possibly get)
You can’t have these huge rucks because you’re going in and clearing the room, milliseconds are life
You have to have really small silhouettes of stuff and more what you would associate with an urban style backpack, not a big giant hiking pack or a big giant ALICE military pack or whatever

Peter guesses he immediately realized that the weight had to come in the form of iron plates

When their mutual friend ( Jocko ) rucks, he’s using a more traditional pack where it’s got a pole on it and you’re basically dropping heavy plates onto

When you were in the military and you were doing your own training, how were you loading up a pack, putting weights in the back?

Rocks and stuff You would wrap them in something so that it would protect the interior lining
Jason explains, “ Full story, I did not start GORUCK with this idea that rucking was going to be the thing. I did not think about it like that at all. This whole series is something that Emily and I have tapped into. It’s not something that we’ve invented or really created. ”
You would wrap them in something so that it would protect the interior lining

Who were you thinking the customer was when you got a hold of these people in Montana?

This was the summer of 2010, Jason was in business school
There’s this idea about total addressable market size and you can go to retail and you get press and you can do all this stuff Direct to consumer was still not quite what it is now Amazon was not Amazon yet
Jason was surrounded by some artisans and stuff in New York and he wanted this to be beautiful and simple as well “ Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication ,” as DaVinci said It’s also less to go wrong
The summer of 2010 in between years at business school, Jason drove around to 48 states in his Ford Expedition with his dog, and he approached small men’s stores and other retail places about having them carry this He drove to 48 states over 10-12 weeks
It was painful ‒ you have these hopes and grandiose dreams
He didn’t know how to do Facebook ads or Google ads, but he could get in a car and drive around to go meet people face-to-face and tell them the story
He bought a sports rack to go on top of the truck He needed extra space with so many rucks that we were going to sell
He didn’t sell any rucks. None. Every state, he was finding a new store
Toward the end of his first year in business school, he started making a list of all the higher end men’s stores around the country He did that only because of the price point of GR1
Direct to consumer was still not quite what it is now Amazon was not Amazon yet
Amazon was not Amazon yet
“ Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication ,” as DaVinci said
It’s also less to go wrong
He drove to 48 states over 10-12 weeks
He needed extra space with so many rucks that we were going to sell
Every state, he was finding a new store
He did that only because of the price point of GR1

We were making GR1 exclusively in America, and it cost him more than he wanted to charge everybody else

When he saw the price, he was like, “ Oh, my gosh. What is this? This is insane .”
But he never thought that founded by a Green Beret and made in China had a good ring to it

What was the price premium to make it in America versus China?

4x
Jason didn’t cost it at the time, but that’s what it would be now
They never made them in China
He thought, “ Okay. Well, this is an advantage that I do have .”

“ One thing that Special forces teaches you is don’t fight fai r.”‒ Jason McCarthy

Never launch a ground war in Asia ( The Princess Bride ); never fight fair
Bring the Air Force with you to a gunfight, always. Why would you not?

Use what is your unique strength that you have. Bring that to the fight.

Jason thought that it was him driving around and going and meeting people at these shops and convincing them of the story and the quality and all this stuff, but that was an unmitigated disaster It just didn’t work
It just didn’t work

Was this because of the price? Was it because people didn’t understand who would in their right mind want to buy a backpack to put weight in it to walk around?

There was no rucking at the time
This was just an everyday, cool carry bag with a lifetime guarantee
Peter doesn’t have a GR1 and asks, “ The GR1 was not one that was fit to have the slots of the weights in it? ”
GR1 has a back panel with a zipper on the back of it It’s a completely separate compartment
Jason had an assault pack that was like that in war that was designed to put a hydration bladder there
The problem with the hydration bladder there is that it’s this big giant lump in the middle of it and it’s very uncomfortable It’s a very terrible position for it But when we deployed, we would put our laptops in there
It was designed to put a hydration bladder or a laptop there, and it became this travel bag
Jason poured every dollar into GR1 inventory
It’s a completely separate compartment
It’s a very terrible position for it
But when we deployed, we would put our laptops in there

How much did it cost to make?

$295, and that was the price on the website
At the time there was this idea of the golden ratio where you would charge 4x, and that’s wholesale pricing
Jason split the golden ratio saying, “ Okay. Well, if it costs 200 bucks, how do you calculate cost? ”
It’s a very tricky thing Let’s say the direct costs were $100 Then you can charge $300, and we’ll be able to make some of that up direct, but he can still have some margins at $147.50 to sell to wholesalers The wholesalers will be more about press, and direct is where there’s more margin (that was the thinking)
Let’s say the direct costs were $100
Then you can charge $300, and we’ll be able to make some of that up direct, but he can still have some margins at $147.50 to sell to wholesalers
The wholesalers will be more about press, and direct is where there’s more margin (that was the thinking)

When you toured 48 states in 2010, what size inventory did you have?

Probably 2,000 rucks

Are people rejecting the idea of a backpack or the idea of rucking?

Rucking was definitely not a thing; it was not the start point for this (but we will get to that quickly)
It was just, “ Hey, this is bombproof gear. Here’s this great story, and I think it would go well in your store .”
It might be that over time it ends up in Nordstrom’s (or in these higher end stores) because it’s quality and craftsmanship and all of that
People Jason would meet would say, “ Uh-huh, uh-huh, yes ;” then it was just silence Everyone loved the story, but it was an unproven brand trying to charge $300 for what people perceive to be a backpack that’s very simple and black
It’s the anti-features because everybody points to all these features but Jason think’s that’s terrible because it’s more stuff to break His thinking was, “ Show me all the stuff that it doesn’t have, and tell me why it’s going to last forever. ”
Everyone loved the story, but it was an unproven brand trying to charge $300 for what people perceive to be a backpack that’s very simple and black
His thinking was, “ Show me all the stuff that it doesn’t have, and tell me why it’s going to last forever. ”

That was very much against the grain of what people wanted to hear

They didn’t have all these crazy colors, it was black, it was a Model T Ford That was not a compelling argument
Stores would have to buy the inventory and educate people, and that’s really hard
People were unwilling to take the chance and Jason understands that
That was not a compelling argument

Jason poured all this money into it and sold none

He’s back in business school, still being floated by the taxpayer
He was thinking, “ Man, I got to do something. ”
There was a partnership with an obstacle course racing company called Tough Mudder
This was part of the longer journey of finding partners and working by, with and through them to get the word out on what GORUCK is
Jason started showing up to these Tough Mudders, and this is when that market was really hot They were getting 10,000 people a weekend to show up
Jason started the first ever Tough Mudder in May of 2010
He thought it was going well, then nothing
The next one wasn’t until the fall out west
Jason put together a team, and we stuffed the rucksack with bricks, and we wrapped those bricks with duct tape We did Tough Mudder together as a team He brought together a bunch of his old buddies that he’d served with to do that first one
They were getting 10,000 people a weekend to show up
We did Tough Mudder together as a team
He brought together a bunch of his old buddies that he’d served with to do that first one

That was fun; that was how he got back into rucking

Then people were like, “ Wow, I want to do that. ”
One thing led to another and he thought why not do something based on Special Forces training but doesn’t require this huge obstacle course

So he created an event called the GORUCK Challenge, which basically became Fight Club with backpacks

The GORUCK Challenge [1:24:30]

First it was led by Jason, and current and former Special Forces
It was, “ Hey, meet me at 10:00 AM at the beach in San Francisco. Details not forthcoming .”
He was doing this through Facebook, and Tough Mudder had it on their site for a while They partnered with them for about a year until they became a little too successful or something
They partnered with them for about a year until they became a little too successful or something

The hardest thing to do is go from 0 to 1

You have this great thing, and how do you break through?
He had so many other partnership talks and US manufacturing partners and all this stuff, but this was the one that ended up working because it gave him a platform to fall back on what he knew How he had been trained Again, it goes back to, “ How much I owe .”
How he had been trained
Again, it goes back to, “ How much I owe .”

You would just travel around the country spontaneously popping up for a GORUCK Challenge?

Like Tyler Durden in Fight Club with backpacks

The overhead was him flying out there, and the business model was pretty simple

The cost of the challenge was half the price of the rucksack, and you got to keep the rucksack If GR1 was $295, the price to enter this event was $147.50 and you got to keep the ruck
The first ones, Jason brought your bricks for you, and he brought duct tape
If GR1 was $295, the price to enter this event was $147.50 and you got to keep the ruck

How many people are showing up to these?

20 for the first one
6 fore the second one, and he had to beg 4 of those people to show up
He was taking pictures, and people were really responding to this because it was a very challenging thing
There was no published route, there was no published course, there was nothing

Typically, how long would a route be when you showed up?

It started out as 5 hours That proved to not be long enough
The “ Tough Challenge ,” which was our original event, ended up settling in at about 10-12 hours
We have all different lengths now There’s a 24-hour version There’s a 3-hour version and a 6-hour version
That proved to not be long enough
There’s a 24-hour version
There’s a 3-hour version and a 6-hour version

How is the weight determined?

We’ve kept it the same since the beginning
If you’re >150 lb, you have 30 lb
If you’re <150 lb, you have 20 lb
In the early days it was bricks, so 6 bricks or 4 bricks, and you had to put those in the rucks It was Jason or the Special Forces cadre going along with the group the whole time; there was no separation
Peter remarks, “ That’s not a lot of weight, but it’s enough weight that for somebody who is not necessarily in great shape, this is a hard thing for them to show up and do. ”
Jason explains that it’s a lot more weight when you’re doing “Indian runs” You line everybody up in rows of 2s, you slap the ruck of the person in the back, and they sprint to the front 10 miles of that
It was Jason or the Special Forces cadre going along with the group the whole time; there was no separation
You line everybody up in rows of 2s, you slap the ruck of the person in the back, and they sprint to the front
10 miles of that

That’s what you guys do for the whole challenge?

That was part, and then you’re stopping along the way and doing physical training
It gets a lot heavier when you start ripping logs out of forests and carrying it down 5th Avenue

These are not things that people show up to do when they just want to start to get in shape; this was meant to be an extreme rite of passage that you would show up and do

The same way how you would get confident ‒ you earn it

“ You do really hard things and you show yourself what you’re capable of because you can’t cheat yourself .”‒ Jason McCarthy

People were just blown away
When they were done, people are just exhausted and so proud of themselves They’ve made friends with these people that they had nothing in common with
They’ve made friends with these people that they had nothing in common with

How many of these were you doing a month?

It was every weekend
He would post the start time the week before
He would go somewhere, do a route recon on Friday That was hours and hours Where am I going to find a log? Where is all this other stuff that I can do? What’s closed? What’s open?
Jason got smart and started telling people to bring their own bricks
Say it started at 10:00 on Friday night was the first one 12, 14 hours later it’s noon, and then you can start at 10:00 Saturday night as well Then you’re going overnight, and then you’re done Sunday morning
That was hours and hours
Where am I going to find a log?
Where is all this other stuff that I can do?
What’s closed? What’s open?
12, 14 hours later it’s noon, and then you can start at 10:00 Saturday night as well
Then you’re going overnight, and then you’re done Sunday morning

The challenge would be back to back?

Oh, yeah
2 different groups
Jason is sleeping under a bridge or in a parking lot somewhere for a few hours between the events
The greatest pep talk in the history of GORUCK is the one that the Cadre gives himself between those 2 events because it’s brutal

How many guys did you have doing this with you?

Hundreds
We’ve put on 10,000 of these since 2010

How many of you were instructors that were going to do both the Friday and Saturday?

It was always just 1, just Jason Until you training somebody else, so then you have 2 of you, but they have to do and shadow and be shadowed, and then they can do it
Until you training somebody else, so then you have 2 of you, but they have to do and shadow and be shadowed, and then they can do it

Part of the thing is you can’t believe how much people are willing to do

When you’re transitioning out of the military, you think that you have this exclusive license to doing really hard things

What Jason has found is that there’s people all over this great country who really want to do hard things

They just didn’t choose the military and that’s okay Jason wouldn’t have chosen the military either without 9/11
Jason explains, “ You’ve got these people and man, the human spirit just burns so brightly. It’s such a gift to get to spend that time around these people. It’s just magic, and you get to see it, and you get to feel this transformation that they have as individuals and as a team. ” It works because it’s in the human terrain
Jason was with these cadre who are well-versed in the human terrain and pushing people and training people and getting them to where they need to be as a team
He was doing this all over the place, and then, more of us were doing it And more and more and more
It got to where we were running over 1000, 1200 a year of these
Then, the pandemic crushed a ton of it
Jason wouldn’t have chosen the military either without 9/11
It works because it’s in the human terrain
And more and more and more

Rucking came in as an important part of this because it was a rite of passage

It’s like you’re never going to want to do this again
But people started to say, “ Well, how do I train for this? ” Jason answered, “ No, it doesn’t matter. Just show up and take your licks. ”
Jason answered, “ No, it doesn’t matter. Just show up and take your licks. ”

Of the people who were showing up, were most people completing it?

Oh yeah, that was the point

What was the feeder population? Were these runners primarily?

There was a very front page prevalence of Special Forces in the media, and that’s what they tapped into People wanted to be around that
The Afghanistan surge under Obama was 2010 or 2011, and Jason was leading a GORUCK challenge in Boston when Bin Laden was killed
Peter is wondering about the types of athletes coming in to be able to do something so extreme without specific training for it He doesn’t think he could have done this on his first day of doing a ruck, simply because of the amount of discomfort due to how foreign it was
The beauty of it was that it was a team event If Jason saw that you were struggling with your ruck… One of Jason’s favorite learning points was they would get these big strong dudes who have egos and think they should be the strongest and carry all the weight and never show weakness
People wanted to be around that
He doesn’t think he could have done this on his first day of doing a ruck, simply because of the amount of discomfort due to how foreign it was
If Jason saw that you were struggling with your ruck…
One of Jason’s favorite learning points was they would get these big strong dudes who have egos and think they should be the strongest and carry all the weight and never show weakness

In one event in Key West, we were moving toward index (12 hours in), and it’s brutal and hot

He saw a guy unable to keep up with the team and asked him to give that person his pack
The guy was like, “ Nope, a real man doesn’t give his pack up. ”
Jason explained to him, “ There’s 2 courses of action here. The first course of action is you’re going to give up your pack, you’re going to submit to the speed that the team needs to go on to get to the index point now. We’re going to finish happy. We’re going to have beer when we’re done. It’s going to be a celebration of life. The human spirit will burn brightly. The second is you and your ego are going to quit this event right now, and for exactly 60 minutes, not a minute less, not a minute more, this squad is going to do squad pushups on this sidewalk until it runs like the River Nile with their sweat. If you want to inflict that upon your team, 12 hours in, that’s what your choice is right now. ”
He gave up his pack, someone carried it for him, and we got to the end
Jason got a note after him like, “ Thanks so much, because I needed that in my life .” Imagine that, he’s one of us, that doesn’t have feelings, that has a hard time asking for help He thought he was checking the box on something that was another mud run, but he got a lot more out of it
Imagine that, he’s one of us, that doesn’t have feelings, that has a hard time asking for help
He thought he was checking the box on something that was another mud run, but he got a lot more out of it

“ That is a great gift to be able to give that to somebody and to do it with a purity of heart. That was not about me. That was about him and his team, and that brought them together .”‒ Jason McCarthy

Then they were up all night partying in Key West, and it was a ton of fun

The thing is those whom much is given much is expected. Those who can carry more weight, they do carry more weight .

How did you choose who was going to carry 60 lbs? (his 30, plus their 30)

Jason didn’t care, the beauty of it is that for the team to optimize, they had to rotate it
The log was a great instructor too, because they would get the log and they would immediately reject it, because it’s very heavy They’re expecting this to go on for a very little bit of time They would do it And what you have to realize over time is that you can’t keep getting the strong people exclusively to carry this, because they have a breaking point too They will get exhausted You have to rotate people with frequency
Jason would let them fail for a little bit, because pain is the greatest teacher of them all Then, they would start infighting, but Jason would never let that continue He would explain, “ Look, the first hour, you’re going to fight it. The second hour, you’re going to finally start to develop a system that works. And the third hour, you’re going to be ready to carry this thing for the rest of the event. ” They’re like, “ What? ” They’re 20 minutes in, thinking that they’re about to put this down and Jason’s like, “ No, no, no .”
They’re expecting this to go on for a very little bit of time
They would do it
And what you have to realize over time is that you can’t keep getting the strong people exclusively to carry this, because they have a breaking point too They will get exhausted
You have to rotate people with frequency
They will get exhausted
Then, they would start infighting, but Jason would never let that continue
He would explain, “ Look, the first hour, you’re going to fight it. The second hour, you’re going to finally start to develop a system that works. And the third hour, you’re going to be ready to carry this thing for the rest of the event. ” They’re like, “ What? ” They’re 20 minutes in, thinking that they’re about to put this down and Jason’s like, “ No, no, no .”
They’re like, “ What? ”
They’re 20 minutes in, thinking that they’re about to put this down and Jason’s like, “ No, no, no .”

How much does this log typically weigh?

They’re big and they’re always gnarly
It’s whatever we could rip out
They’re not telephone poles
One side is way heavier with roots and nasty stuff right into your shoulder There was a lot of learning points and teaching points, and it was very extreme and it felt great Jason felt like he had a mission and purpose again, and that was fantastic
There was a lot of learning points and teaching points, and it was very extreme and it felt great Jason felt like he had a mission and purpose again, and that was fantastic
Jason felt like he had a mission and purpose again, and that was fantastic

Serving others and giving back with what he had learned about building teams, personal endurance, and overcoming ‒ teaching that to other people was very, very rewarding. That was the foundation.

The company’s evolution from event organizer to manufacturing specialist spurred by the growing interest in rucking as a form of training [1:35:30]

Peter asks, “ It wasn’t until COVID that, basically, the idea of using rucking as the training came about, if I heard you correctly? ”
No, it started much earlier than that
People started asking how to train for this, and they started to self-organize and form ruck clubs across the country
Jason thought, “ That’s insane. Who does that? ” Meanwhile, he used to do it
These ruck clubs become social clubs as well
It finds out that people are looking to be part of something bigger than themselves They want to find friends that want to go do stuff Not everybody just wants to doom scroll
Going for a ruck, then grabbing dinner with the people that you know, that you talk to about your life and what matters to you, and you listen to what matters to them, that stuff is hugely important Those are the lessons Jason learned in SF (in Special Forces), and that’s just what we saw from the community
It became this groundswell of people who wanted to self-organize Those are easy tea leaves to read, and we started building around that
Meanwhile, he used to do it
They want to find friends that want to go do stuff
Not everybody just wants to doom scroll
Those are the lessons Jason learned in SF (in Special Forces), and that’s just what we saw from the community
Those are easy tea leaves to read, and we started building around that

At this point, is the company an event running company that provides a pack?

Yes
It took 2.5 years of figuring out how to develop the packs
We had internal sewers
We have a repair department called “Scars,” which is where we offer our lifetime guarantee
We have the DNA of a manufacturing company as well
We just also have the energy of our own events company It’s kind of a weird thing that we still wrestle with a little bit Jason can’t imagine a world without both, but it’s unusual
Usually, a manufacturer will sponsor a race or an event series or whatever We developed both, from the ground up, out of necessity, and it sort of turned into, “ How do I train for this? ” And then, it was, “ What else can we do? ”
We started to make longer events, harder events, heavier events, lighter events, and shorter events Because you don’t always want a 24-hour event like this or a 12-hour event like this
Then it started to be, “ Okay, well, let’s live that life. ”
We developed the Rucker , which was a pack specific for rucking Remove the laptop because you could put a ruck plate in the laptop compartment What we found was, if you do that at a GORUCK challenge and you drop your ruck and the iron meshes with that zipper right there, it’s going to break it No matter how well we build it, you can’t do it The zippers are the weak part in almost every piece of gear, no matter the gear, so we always use the best zippers But you can’t endure a crush load against a zipper like that We removed that as a failure point for rucking and training, and the Rucker was born
Then, we had cast iron plates We’ve been messaging that for a while, almost decade
It’s kind of a weird thing that we still wrestle with a little bit
Jason can’t imagine a world without both, but it’s unusual
We developed both, from the ground up, out of necessity, and it sort of turned into, “ How do I train for this? ”
And then, it was, “ What else can we do? ”
Because you don’t always want a 24-hour event like this or a 12-hour event like this
Remove the laptop because you could put a ruck plate in the laptop compartment
What we found was, if you do that at a GORUCK challenge and you drop your ruck and the iron meshes with that zipper right there, it’s going to break it No matter how well we build it, you can’t do it The zippers are the weak part in almost every piece of gear, no matter the gear, so we always use the best zippers But you can’t endure a crush load against a zipper like that
We removed that as a failure point for rucking and training, and the Rucker was born
No matter how well we build it, you can’t do it
The zippers are the weak part in almost every piece of gear, no matter the gear, so we always use the best zippers
But you can’t endure a crush load against a zipper like that
We’ve been messaging that for a while, almost decade

FAQs about rucking: packs, weight, rucksack vs. weighted vest, chest straps, and more [1:38:45]

People who’ve listened to this podcast or heard Peter talk about it become a real fan of this
Peter has talked about how, sometimes, he almost don’t include it in his tally of weekly exercise If he’s adding up the number of hours in a week that he’s exercising, it’s almost an afterthought to include the ruck Even though the ruck is a great source of exercise
He talks about how he does it for his mental health, because it’s the only thing he does without any other input If he’s on the bike, he’s listening to a podcast If he’s in the weight room, he’s listening to music
Rucking is something where he’s decidedly never carrying a phone So either he’s alone in silence or he’s doing it with a friend or his wife
Peter has really fallen in love with it, and he has yet to bring somebody on on a ruck that hasn’t either fallen in love with it or come to appreciate why this is a great thing to do
If he’s adding up the number of hours in a week that he’s exercising, it’s almost an afterthought to include the ruck Even though the ruck is a great source of exercise
Even though the ruck is a great source of exercise
If he’s on the bike, he’s listening to a podcast
If he’s in the weight room, he’s listening to music
So either he’s alone in silence or he’s doing it with a friend or his wife

Peter gets a lot of questions about rucking

Do you need a rucksack?

Peter and his wife have a Ruck 4.0, tons of weights to slot in all different permutations
But for somebody who doesn’t want to spend $300 on one of these, can they just use their own backpack
Yes
The last thing Jason ever wanted was to be the Willy Loman of backpacks

He thinks people should be more active and try whatever you’ve got

Put 10-20 lbs in your backpack (a bag of rice, water, whatever) and go walk around your neighborhood
Cinch it down and make it as tight as you can
Jason is reluctant to tell people to put too much more weight in because that’ where it gets more uncomfortable And once you add too much more weight to something that’s not built for rucking, it becomes a bad ride and you’re like, “ I hate rucking .”
You can find a bunch of people who hate rucking It’s usually people that served in the military, that carried a ton of weight, who got no sleep, and had to take fighting positions when they got there
Jason is talking about 20 pounds, 30 pounds for pick one: your mental health, physical health, social health (if you’re talking to your wife or a friend or a loved one)
And once you add too much more weight to something that’s not built for rucking, it becomes a bad ride and you’re like, “ I hate rucking .”
It’s usually people that served in the military, that carried a ton of weight, who got no sleep, and had to take fighting positions when they got there

Don’t give yourself any excuses that you have to go buy something, because you have what you need to go get started right now

Peter’s kids use their backpacks and school books

What guidance do you offer about some of the parameters around weight?

Let’s start with a person who is not that fit but they want to give this a try

This person could put in 10,000 steps, but that’s about the extent of their fitness

Try 20 lbs for a couple miles

It’s one of those things where this is completely different from running
If you are walking as part of your daily life, it is the same movement You’re not doing this thing where there’s all this different gait and new things with your Achilles, the way that you land or foot strike or heel strike It’s so much simpler than that
It’s just carrying a little bit of weigh, and the thing is that your shoulders will get a little bit sore the first time That’s good That’s how they get stronger
You’re not doing this thing where there’s all this different gait and new things with your Achilles, the way that you land or foot strike or heel strike It’s so much simpler than that
It’s so much simpler than that
That’s good
That’s how they get stronger

This should not be some crazy thing where you start out with a third of your body weight or more

Start out simply, go for a walk
It’s so great to be outside The sunshine and the wind and all of that, those are additional benefits
If you want to start on your treadmill, that’s fine You’ll get the physiological side of it at that point
If you want to go a couple miles, great, go a couple miles, come back and try it again tomorrow You’ll get a little sore
The sunshine and the wind and all of that, those are additional benefits
You’ll get the physiological side of it at that point
You’ll get a little sore

What kind of guidance would you provide as you escalate the weight and/or if you’re a person who’s already kind of fit and wants to add this in?

There are some variables here: The speed that you ruck The weight that you carry The elevation
You have to listen to yourself and also consider what are your goals in this? If you’re training for a hike or a hunt This is a great thing to do to baseline your fitness
The speed that you ruck
The weight that you carry
The elevation
If you’re training for a hike or a hunt
This is a great thing to do to baseline your fitness

There’s no reason to go out of the shoot too hard

Jason started out with minimal packs in basic training It was 45 dry, and relative to his weight (200 lbs), that’s still less than 25% And he was in really good shape otherwise
If you come to Jason’s driveway and work out or go on a ruck with him, he doesn’t care how much weight you carry
It was 45 dry, and relative to his weight (200 lbs), that’s still less than 25% And he was in really good shape otherwise
And he was in really good shape otherwise

You need to consider your specific situation

If you’re used to carrying weights
If you’re used to squatting a lot
If you’re doing things that are going to prepare you to carry weight, then try 30 or 45 lbs If you’re really fit
There’s no shame in starting out with 30 lbs Go for a couple miles What’s the worst thing that happens? You realize you want to make it a little harder
If you’re really fit
Go for a couple miles
What’s the worst thing that happens? You realize you want to make it a little harder
You realize you want to make it a little harder

Getting out there is part of the joy, without the pressure of how many lbs your carrying ‒ just simplify it all

What is the difference between a rucksack and a weight vest?

Peter used to us a weight vest to train for hunting trips, but he knows Jason has thought a lot about the ergonomics of this
Jason remarks, “ It was fun to see you and Dr. Huberman going back and forth on this a little bit. I think he had spent more time with a weight vest, and that actually inspired Michael Easter and I to go even deeper into weight vest versus rucksack .”
An important thing is that weight vests are vital to the success of soldiers and police officers and those who are in those kinds of dangerous jobs There’s a component of train like you fight You need to be comfortable in a weight vest, if your job requires you to wear a weight vest to do things (like stop bullets)
However, people that wear weight vests have typically terrible posture because of it It is just kind of a compression downward, that doesn’t really open up in order to breathe better You have to create this cavity of air in the front of your belly, which the more fatigued you get, the more that you do that when you’re wearing a weight vest So, you’re kind of hunching over a little bit It’s not good for what you want your spine to look like
You have to “own your breath to own your pose,” and rucking is no different If you can own your breath, it means your shoulders are back and you can take a really deep breath while you’re rucking
The weight vest also looks a little different than a rucksack You can’t quite blend in quite as well This is getting into the aesthetics less than the physiological response
The rucksack is more comfortable, and Jason says that from the standpoint of he can put his shoulders back It’s posture corrective for him, it rolls his shoulders back when he cinches it down tight This works well to maintain solid posture that is the opposite of lower back or neck curvature forward
There’s a component of train like you fight
You need to be comfortable in a weight vest, if your job requires you to wear a weight vest to do things (like stop bullets)
It is just kind of a compression downward, that doesn’t really open up in order to breathe better You have to create this cavity of air in the front of your belly, which the more fatigued you get, the more that you do that when you’re wearing a weight vest
So, you’re kind of hunching over a little bit
It’s not good for what you want your spine to look like
You have to create this cavity of air in the front of your belly, which the more fatigued you get, the more that you do that when you’re wearing a weight vest
If you can own your breath, it means your shoulders are back and you can take a really deep breath while you’re rucking
You can’t quite blend in quite as well
This is getting into the aesthetics less than the physiological response
It’s posture corrective for him, it rolls his shoulders back when he cinches it down tight
This works well to maintain solid posture that is the opposite of lower back or neck curvature forward

Thoughts on using a chest strap

One of the tings Peter remembers from when they went out for a ruck last year was that Jason didn’t use the chest strap that comes on the rucksack And he wasn’t using the hip belt Which is an attachment you can by for $20 or something
Peter has played with both of these and he also prefers to to use the chest strap He finds it makes it harder to breathe, and he prefers to have it wide open This means there’s a little more pressure on his shoulders, but it’s a worthwhile tradeoff because he has unrestricted breathing
He does quite fancy the hip belt
And he wasn’t using the hip belt Which is an attachment you can by for $20 or something
Which is an attachment you can by for $20 or something
He finds it makes it harder to breathe, and he prefers to have it wide open
This means there’s a little more pressure on his shoulders, but it’s a worthwhile tradeoff because he has unrestricted breathing

Is it a throwback to your time in the military that you don’t use a chest strap or hip belt?

Jason did grow up rucking without a hip belts
The fit for him, when you start to transfer the load around your hips, it reduces some of the stability he has with the weight and the way his shoulders go back and the way he breathes
When you get into very heavy loads (hunting style or heavy military ammunition), he has found there’s a lot of value in alternating how you’re doing it Because you want the blood flow to go certain ways Even when it’s a shoulder-only carry, there’s little tips and tricks (flex your shoulders around just a little bit) so you can get the blood flow to go there a little bit more
Jason doesn’t use it It’s not a comfortable thing for him For the load to transfer, it can be at odds with how much you cinch the rucksack down Peter agrees, if you want it to be cinched tight on the hips, you can’t cinch it down much on the shoulders
Hunting packs are enormous and they’re really long They’re built to carry really heavy loads
Because you want the blood flow to go certain ways
Even when it’s a shoulder-only carry, there’s little tips and tricks (flex your shoulders around just a little bit) so you can get the blood flow to go there a little bit more
It’s not a comfortable thing for him
For the load to transfer, it can be at odds with how much you cinch the rucksack down Peter agrees, if you want it to be cinched tight on the hips, you can’t cinch it down much on the shoulders
Peter agrees, if you want it to be cinched tight on the hips, you can’t cinch it down much on the shoulders
They’re built to carry really heavy loads

Jason prefers the feeling of the shoulder carry

He was taught that you want the pack high and tight on your back to make the weight stable

Whatever you’re using, you want it to be stable

The more stuff is shifting around inside of your ruck, if you step on uneven ground, then you have the opportunity to tweak your back in the wrong spot

“ I really like that feeling of stability high and tight on my back, just right up on my shoulders .”‒ Jason McCarthy

Would you suggest that folks muck around with this and figure out what feels best to them?

Yes, absolutely
The idea of the resistance side of rucking starting with your shoulders and going all the way down to your feet, you’re starting that resistance with your upper body
And when you transfer all the load to your hips, you’re starting it much lower on the body
It’s different strokes for different folks, and people like it certain ways depending upon how the fit is Especially at lighter loads, people who are used to carrying book bags or they’re used to doing these types of things, you’re used to carrying that on your shoulders You’ve already prepared yourself You’re walking in part of your daily life, you’re training for this, you’re ready
There’s this idea of ride that through, and as you get more weight, say you start to get up to 45 or you start to maybe max out at a third of your body weight, it puts more pressure on your system, your technique, and you might want to transfer the load or you might want to do it a little bit differently
If Jason does really long, really heavy rucks, he will occasionally use the sternum strap in the front, because it’s going to take some of the load off his shoulders, which allows the blood flow to come back to his shoulders and his hands That then just gives him that little break, and then he continues with the mission
Especially at lighter loads, people who are used to carrying book bags or they’re used to doing these types of things, you’re used to carrying that on your shoulders You’ve already prepared yourself You’re walking in part of your daily life, you’re training for this, you’re ready
You’ve already prepared yourself
You’re walking in part of your daily life, you’re training for this, you’re ready
That then just gives him that little break, and then he continues with the mission

Commemorating Normandy: GORUCK’s plans for the 80th anniversary of the Normandy landings [1:51:30]

Nowadays, how many events do you typically lead in a month or in a year?

Jason doesn’t lead a lot of events
He has people over to his driveway every weekend when he’s home People come over from the community
Or we run events
What it means to be a GORUCK event is certainly broadened
We’ve decentralized it a lot Bring the people together in the parks Bring the people together in your driveways This doesn’t need to be so complicated Go for rucks wherever you want to go
He probably only leads 20 events a year now
People come over from the community
Bring the people together in the parks
Bring the people together in your driveways
This doesn’t need to be so complicated
Go for rucks wherever you want to go

Did you lead an event in Normandy?

He did, and we’re going back next year in May and June for the 80th [anniversary of D-Day ]
We went for the 75th
We have different kinds of events
The one that Jason and his wife did together was a 75 km ruck (about 50 miles) It started in Utah and ended at Omaha It passed through all the cities you saw in Band of Brothers ( Pointe du Hoc )
It started in Utah and ended at Omaha
It passed through all the cities you saw in Band of Brothers ( Pointe du Hoc )

Did you do it on the beach? Or did you do it above the cliffs?

You can’t do it on the beach
You’ve got to go around to the cities and around an inlet
Then you come up to the German cemetery, almost at dawn Which is black tombstones You walk around, and it’s one thing to know that we were on the side of right and justice
Which is black tombstones
You walk around, and it’s one thing to know that we were on the side of right and justice

“ God bless those men and everybody in our country that had any part in that war, because we did right .”‒ Jason McCarthy

You walk around that German cemetery, and you see 16, 17, 18-year-old kids that are buried there
It’s just another perspective that you get from seeing that, especially that far in
Then, you go to Pointe du Hoc, and you see where the Rangers scaled that wall against those machine gun nests The amount of sacrifice that’s gone into this
From there, we hand railed the final piece from Pointe du Hoc to Omaha, and it took us to Omaha This is Jason’s favorite ruck on planet Earth
The American Cemetery is there That’s the most American place on planet Earth Jason gets goosebumps thinking about it To see what they had to endure for that to happen is mind blowing Think not only of their passing, think of the glory of their spirit It’s hard when you’re there because it’s a very solemn place But man, there’s a lot of glory of a lot of spirit there
The amount of sacrifice that’s gone into this
This is Jason’s favorite ruck on planet Earth
That’s the most American place on planet Earth
Jason gets goosebumps thinking about it
To see what they had to endure for that to happen is mind blowing
Think not only of their passing, think of the glory of their spirit
It’s hard when you’re there because it’s a very solemn place
But man, there’s a lot of glory of a lot of spirit there

They will do an 80th anniversary there ‒ they’re running a lot of different events

There’s an 80 kilometer (or roughly a 50 miler), probably the same-ish route There’s a 26.2 We’ll put on some 12 milers, do some commemorative hero workouts We’ll do some of our challenges of different lengths We’ll put on some scavenger hunts, we’ll put on some stuff for the kids We have 2 chateaus right on the beach, pretty close to Pointe du Hoc, and we’ll be running stuff out of there We have this really crazy long endurance event as well called GORUCK Selection , which is patterned after Special Forces Assessment and Selection It’s the toughest endurance event in the world It’s pass rate’s sub 1% It’s the only event where we try to get people to quit It’s 48 hours in late May We’re doing it for the first time overseas in Normandy It’s the dark side of GORUCK, but people ultimately wanted the biggest test they could possibly find This past year, 1 person finished The year before 0 people finished The year before that, 1 person finished That’s the first event we’re kicking off with, and then we get into the more fun stuff
There’s an 80 kilometer (or roughly a 50 miler), probably the same-ish route
There’s a 26.2
We’ll put on some 12 milers, do some commemorative hero workouts
We’ll do some of our challenges of different lengths
We’ll put on some scavenger hunts, we’ll put on some stuff for the kids
We have 2 chateaus right on the beach, pretty close to Pointe du Hoc, and we’ll be running stuff out of there
We have this really crazy long endurance event as well called GORUCK Selection , which is patterned after Special Forces Assessment and Selection It’s the toughest endurance event in the world It’s pass rate’s sub 1% It’s the only event where we try to get people to quit It’s 48 hours in late May We’re doing it for the first time overseas in Normandy It’s the dark side of GORUCK, but people ultimately wanted the biggest test they could possibly find This past year, 1 person finished The year before 0 people finished The year before that, 1 person finished That’s the first event we’re kicking off with, and then we get into the more fun stuff
It’s the toughest endurance event in the world
It’s pass rate’s sub 1% It’s the only event where we try to get people to quit
It’s 48 hours in late May
We’re doing it for the first time overseas in Normandy
It’s the dark side of GORUCK, but people ultimately wanted the biggest test they could possibly find
This past year, 1 person finished The year before 0 people finished The year before that, 1 person finished
That’s the first event we’re kicking off with, and then we get into the more fun stuff
It’s the only event where we try to get people to quit
The year before 0 people finished
The year before that, 1 person finished
Peter responds, “80K doesn’t sound like it’s just pure fun stuff. That sounds pretty challenging.”

That event is Jason’s favorite event to do as a participant

You have to put the miles in to train up
The first time we ever did it, we did it in DC, and it was a torrential downpour Jason went in with a little bit too much pride, like, “ Oh, I’ve been rucking for a long time .” You have 20 pounds, so you end up having 25 including your stuff He was like, “ Oh no, I’m good .” Jason explains, “ Man, I had to go to the well to pass that thing .” And it was under 20 hours You’re rucking, you’re not shuffling, you’re not ruck running or anything like that, if you want to hit that kind of time back The beauty is just it does wear you down It’s longer than you want It’s harder than you think The 40 mile mark is about where you’re like, “ I’m ready to be done. ”
What you’ll find, over the course of these longer events, is that there’s highs and lows for all of you, but they don’t always come at the same time So you’re there and you need someone’s help, and they help you. And then, you, in turn, do that for them
Jason went in with a little bit too much pride, like, “ Oh, I’ve been rucking for a long time .”
You have 20 pounds, so you end up having 25 including your stuff
He was like, “ Oh no, I’m good .”
Jason explains, “ Man, I had to go to the well to pass that thing .” And it was under 20 hours You’re rucking, you’re not shuffling, you’re not ruck running or anything like that, if you want to hit that kind of time back
The beauty is just it does wear you down It’s longer than you want It’s harder than you think The 40 mile mark is about where you’re like, “ I’m ready to be done. ”
And it was under 20 hours
You’re rucking, you’re not shuffling, you’re not ruck running or anything like that, if you want to hit that kind of time back
It’s longer than you want
It’s harder than you think
The 40 mile mark is about where you’re like, “ I’m ready to be done. ”
So you’re there and you need someone’s help, and they help you.
And then, you, in turn, do that for them

It really brings you closer to people that you’re there with, and that was great experience

You won’t do the 80K?

Jason and Emily will probably choose a shorter distance, only because they have a lot of events to put on
That takes you out of commission for a couple days

You’ll do this right on June 6th?

We’re there for 2 weeks prior
Normandy is a great place; it’s also very big
It’s going to be very busy leading up to the anniversary
On June 6th, all the heads of state will be at the American Cemetery Which means there’s more traffic, there’s more checkpoints, it’s harder to operate
We plan it to let people show up early We run our events during the week and the weekend prior Then, if people want to stay, they can stay; and if they want to go home by then, they can go home
People should go to Washington DC as well and see our nation’s capital, see the Lincoln and the Washington You can’t get as close to the Capitol as you used to, but go see the Jefferson, the MLK, and the FDR Go see them and read what’s up there Read the Gettysburg Address at the Lincoln: it’s amazing
As well, the more people that go to Normandy, the better It’s just an amazing place
Which means there’s more traffic, there’s more checkpoints, it’s harder to operate
We run our events during the week and the weekend prior
Then, if people want to stay, they can stay; and if they want to go home by then, they can go home
You can’t get as close to the Capitol as you used to, but go see the Jefferson, the MLK, and the FDR
Go see them and read what’s up there
Read the Gettysburg Address at the Lincoln: it’s amazing
It’s just an amazing place

Footwear for rucking, and how GORUCK got into the footwear business [1:57:30]

Why do you guys make footwear, and why do you think the footwear you make is really good?

Peter wears their footwear; he’s wearing the Ballistic Trainers now He loves both the high top and the low top They have about an 8 mm drop
These are very supportive and Peter found prior to wearing these, that he was destroying shoes
There are certain minimalist shoes that he likes, but he felt he needed more support
Peter adds, “ You’re almost a footwear company at this point now, aren’t you? ”
We are
An important thing happened when Jason met a guy named Paul Litchfield
There’s a lot of chemistry involved in the process of building footwear, and there’s a lot of dark arts
You can sew a rucksack, you have some sewing machines and a cutting table You can iterate a million times
Footwear is way more complicated, with lasts and molds and foam chemistry and all this stuff
Jason met Paul when he was still at Reebok He was running the Advanced concepts group at Reebok at the time
Paul had invented something called the Reebok Pump and it had been one of the foremost shoe dogs of his generation (and still) Sold over a billion pairs of shoes
There’s a lot of expertise that comes with that to help navigate the dark arts, because starting your own shoe company, while it sounds sexy, it’s a great way to build a terrible product
You have to liaise with the factory and get the molds built, and there’s a lot that goes with it
It was important that we had someone who’s a real expert, and Jason is a really aggressive product tester He hates everything till he accepts it
He loves both the high top and the low top
They have about an 8 mm drop
You can iterate a million times
He was running the Advanced concepts group at Reebok at the time
Sold over a billion pairs of shoes
He hates everything till he accepts it

Great art is never finished, it’s only abandoned

So there’s always this kind of relentless pursuit of excellence, but you have to have somebody who is just dogmatic in their beliefs, that knows what they’re doing, that is a subject matter expert, that has dedicated their life to this as a profession Without that, Jason was unwilling to get into the footwear business
So there’s always this kind of relentless pursuit of excellence, but you have to have somebody who is just dogmatic in their beliefs, that knows what they’re doing, that is a subject matter expert, that has dedicated their life to this as a profession
Without that, Jason was unwilling to get into the footwear business
Jason explains, “ The reason why footwear is so important is that if you lined up a hundred people who are masters of the ruck, most of them at this point would come from the Special Forces community, and you said, ‘What’s more important, the ruck sack or the boot?’ 90% if not 100% will say, ‘The footwear.’ ”
The reason why is because when that goes wrong, it is just excruciating
Napoleon lost because of foot problems, right? You can lose wars, you can lose everything, based upon the feet of your soldiers And if they’re not doing well, it’s really hard to do anything
You’re living on your feet all of the time
In the military, we were always just modifying our footwear to make it more like a sneaker, but still supportive
There’s all this stuff in the civilian sector about minimalist footwear You cannot go through the training that we went through in minimalist stuff Your feet just need more support under that kind of load
You can lose wars, you can lose everything, based upon the feet of your soldiers
And if they’re not doing well, it’s really hard to do anything
You cannot go through the training that we went through in minimalist stuff
Your feet just need more support under that kind of load

We took the jungle boot from the military and made that ours

That was the boot Jason wore in the Special Forces qualification course
We stripped away the weight
We added tread that was lightweight that would still work with that
Most importantly, we provided the support for your feet for all of the miles It lets you scale up the weight and the distance
Because this is GORUCK, we want stuff to last forever It doesn’t, but we want it to last forever, and that’s how we build it That’s just in our ethos and we’re uncompromising about that
It lets you scale up the weight and the distance
It doesn’t, but we want it to last forever, and that’s how we build it
That’s just in our ethos and we’re uncompromising about that

“ We were unwilling to do it unless we could build a best-in-class, world-class product, and we want it to solve a real world problem, not just a stylistic problem, like, ‘Oh, this is going to be a cooler looking shoe.’ That’s a terrible problem to solve. ”‒ Jason McCarthy

The problem is you live on your feet and you’re carrying weight of any amount, volume, distance, whatever it might be, and we need to build something around that
That’s a harrowing task
Now, there’s all different facets of how people carry Is it off-road or is it on trails? How did people grow up?
Look at how Born To Run kind of ignited that The vibrant 5 finger shoes Which Jason calls, “ The 5 Finger Death Punch ,” when he would see it at events, because people would just destroy themselves when they would wear this They’re so unsupported with so much weight for so long
People just don’t know and they are looking for answers
Is it off-road or is it on trails?
How did people grow up?
The vibrant 5 finger shoes Which Jason calls, “ The 5 Finger Death Punch ,” when he would see it at events, because people would just destroy themselves when they would wear this They’re so unsupported with so much weight for so long
Which Jason calls, “ The 5 Finger Death Punch ,” when he would see it at events, because people would just destroy themselves when they would wear this
They’re so unsupported with so much weight for so long

If you are carrying weight or you’re living on your feet, you need supportive footwear

Peter agrees, “ I love my minimalist footwear, but I have learned, I would say, the hard way that rucking is not the time for it. ”
Peter describes his feet as hypermobile and it seems to make him even more susceptible to injury on uneven terrain with that much weight

Talk about the Ballistic Trainer versus the boot. How would you help somebody navigate those?

People make decisions based off how things look or how simple they are
We come from a Special Forces background, so the boots are inspired by our jungle boots that we used to wear We just sort of stripped them down
The Ballistic Trainers started out as the best garage gym shoe on the planet There was a little bit of, “ Hey, how do we solve a problem that you can lift, push, pull, drag sandbags or barbells or stuff as well .” But this is GORUCK, so you need to be able to ruck in them as well
At that time, CrossFit had started out with a really minimalist drop for lots of different reasons, but many of them weren’t very good over the long haul
We came in with an 8 mm drop shoe (the Ballistic Trainer) This also happens to be the best shoe for CrossFit For us it’s also the best garage gym shoe and you can ruck with it and live in your feet with The drop does matter (so basically the rucking offset or the heel lift), and that’s how you prevent things like shin splints It takes a little bit of strain off the Achilles and keeps it a little safer
You can argue philosophical positions forever You should have a stronger Achilles, a stronger shin, and a stronger foot The word “should” is not really very useful
The thing is, people grew up with a lot of asphalt and the more you weigh, the more strain you’re putting on your feet with every step How do you walk, and all of those things
Yes, it’s important to strengthen your feet as well Walk around your house barefoot
But when it comes time to perform and you have a lot of weight [you need supportive footwear] Your foot has 3 arches and you need to support them all over a lot of dynamic movements: pavement, uneven terrain, whatever it might be There’s a lot that goes into doing that successfully, and the stuff we build is designed for that
Peter does most of his activity barefoot, but he takes care of his feet when he rucks and when he does his heavier carries
We just sort of stripped them down
There was a little bit of, “ Hey, how do we solve a problem that you can lift, push, pull, drag sandbags or barbells or stuff as well .”
But this is GORUCK, so you need to be able to ruck in them as well
This also happens to be the best shoe for CrossFit
For us it’s also the best garage gym shoe and you can ruck with it and live in your feet with
The drop does matter (so basically the rucking offset or the heel lift), and that’s how you prevent things like shin splints It takes a little bit of strain off the Achilles and keeps it a little safer
It takes a little bit of strain off the Achilles and keeps it a little safer
You should have a stronger Achilles, a stronger shin, and a stronger foot
The word “should” is not really very useful
How do you walk, and all of those things
Walk around your house barefoot
Your foot has 3 arches and you need to support them all over a lot of dynamic movements: pavement, uneven terrain, whatever it might be There’s a lot that goes into doing that successfully, and the stuff we build is designed for that
There’s a lot that goes into doing that successfully, and the stuff we build is designed for that

How to avoid the most common injuries from rucking, and the benefits of rucking for VO2 max, strength, and sleep quality [2:05:00]

What are the most common injuries you see in people who ruck?

What are the steps you recommend people to take to mitigate those?

If you do it at lighter loads, you don’t see a lot of injury
You’ve seen this proven in Special Forces training The #1 cause of injury is running, and there’s no close second Lifting is #2, and marching is way down the list
The #1 cause of injury is running, and there’s no close second
Lifting is #2, and marching is way down the list

The injuries that you’ll see are usually from people that start too fast, too soon, with too much weight

So, slow down, reduce the weight, listen to your body
If you start to get shin splints, they’re not going to get better from doing more of the same thing You can ice and rest You can also just reduce the weight, the distance, and the time
Jason’s standard is a 45 lb plate He carries it often It’s by the door at his office, it by the door at his house If he walks the dog, he rucks the dog If he can take a phone call outside, he puts the 45 lb plate on and walks around the neighborhood while he takes the call This lets him squeeze a few more hours out of the day that he doesn’t have to dedicate to just fitness
Some days you don’t feel like doing that much, or some days you want a little bit more You just have to listen to yourself
If you start running with weight, you’re putting a lot more strain on yourself, so make sure that you’re physically able to do that
There’s a middle ground that’s a shuffle that is really, really interesting, and when Jason wants to do a little bit more and he doesn’t want his knees to feel like he just went on a long run He tries to keep his feet as low to the ground as possible, and he moves them as fast as possible; just kind of shuffle His heart rate goes up a lot more, and you can really accelerate that pretty quickly
You can ice and rest
You can also just reduce the weight, the distance, and the time
He carries it often
It’s by the door at his office, it by the door at his house
If he walks the dog, he rucks the dog
If he can take a phone call outside, he puts the 45 lb plate on and walks around the neighborhood while he takes the call This lets him squeeze a few more hours out of the day that he doesn’t have to dedicate to just fitness
This lets him squeeze a few more hours out of the day that he doesn’t have to dedicate to just fitness
You just have to listen to yourself
He tries to keep his feet as low to the ground as possible, and he moves them as fast as possible; just kind of shuffle
His heart rate goes up a lot more, and you can really accelerate that pretty quickly

The faster you go and the more that you gallop, the greater risk that you’re going to have of injury

For most people walking with 20-30 pounds, you’re not really going to see a lot [of injuries], other than shin splints if you’re unready
If your Achilles starts to hurt, dial it back a little bit, get a little more ready, or look at supportive footwear
If your shoulders are sore, then decrease the weight Or if it’s a good sore, then that’s them getting stronger
Peter finds that he rucks less in the winter For whatever reason, he enjoys the heat more and has less motivation to go out in the winter
He finds that when he ramps up the volume in the summer, that first week, he feels it in the shoulders again But it’s easy to distinguish a good sore (this is foreign to me) from a bad sore (this is causing an injury)
Or if it’s a good sore, then that’s them getting stronger
For whatever reason, he enjoys the heat more and has less motivation to go out in the winter
But it’s easy to distinguish a good sore (this is foreign to me) from a bad sore (this is causing an injury)

What happens when you ruck with too much weight

If you get too much weight, you’ll start to lean your body forward You’ll pivot at your hips a little bit too much while you’re doing it You’re doing that because you’re trying to put the weight over your stronger muscles, and you’re kind of cheating
Jason explains, “ You know how Arnold talks about, ‘I don’t care how many pushups you can do. I want to see you do 10 perfect pushups’? ” Master the movement first and then get into the miles and all that Do the movement correctly Remove the ego a little bit about how much weight that you have, especially if you’re starting, until you get comfortable or know what you’re capable of, and keep good form while you’re doing it This will reduce the risk of really anything You shouldn’t start hunching over and stuff
You’ll pivot at your hips a little bit too much while you’re doing it
You’re doing that because you’re trying to put the weight over your stronger muscles, and you’re kind of cheating
Master the movement first and then get into the miles and all that
Do the movement correctly
Remove the ego a little bit about how much weight that you have, especially if you’re starting, until you get comfortable or know what you’re capable of, and keep good form while you’re doing it
This will reduce the risk of really anything
You shouldn’t start hunching over and stuff

For someone starting out, what would be the frequency you would recommend they do it, if they’re starting out at a modest weight? Would you put any limit on it?

This is very subjective depending on: Their step count Do they work out otherwise
Their step count
Do they work out otherwise

Try a couple miles, a couple times a week

If you try 2 miles with 30 lbs and that was good, you can do that
Peter agrees, “ At a light enough load, once you’re in a cardio zone 2 or below, there’s really no limit to what I think you can do in terms of frequency. ”

People always ask Peter if it’s a zone 2 workout when he’s doing his ruck

No, it’s zone1/zone4
He’s never at a steady state heart rate of 130-140 The only way he can do that is the ruck shuffle (he explained how he does this at the track at the school) If he does a shuffle, he can titrate the speed of the shuffle to zone 2
Walking around his house, his heart rate is either pretty low or pretty high (when going up steep hills) This is part of the reason why he doesn’t really bank it as exercise in his mind He enjoys those pushes up the hills, because then you’re getting that VO 2 max He also really likes walking down the steep hills, because you’re working on: “ How do your brakes work? ” And brakes are the things that fail when we age Walking down a very steep hill with weight on your back is a really good way to train eccentric strength while the muscle is lengthening
The only way he can do that is the ruck shuffle (he explained how he does this at the track at the school) If he does a shuffle, he can titrate the speed of the shuffle to zone 2
If he does a shuffle, he can titrate the speed of the shuffle to zone 2
This is part of the reason why he doesn’t really bank it as exercise in his mind
He enjoys those pushes up the hills, because then you’re getting that VO 2 max
He also really likes walking down the steep hills, because you’re working on: “ How do your brakes work? ” And brakes are the things that fail when we age Walking down a very steep hill with weight on your back is a really good way to train eccentric strength while the muscle is lengthening
And brakes are the things that fail when we age
Walking down a very steep hill with weight on your back is a really good way to train eccentric strength while the muscle is lengthening

Jason asks, “ Would you recommend going very slowly while you do that, or is there any value in increased speed while going downhill? ”

Peter doesn’t think there’s a value in increased speed going downhill
Only sprinters do that to teach the muscle how fast the legs can go
The risk-reward for a normal person is not there to justify it
Peter is not going incredibly slow He’s going at the safest pace possible when he goes down Whereas, going up, he’s really limited by his cardio system He’s basically going up as fast as his lungs will carry him
Jason adds that the way down hurts his knees more, the faster he tries to go
His wife is a really good runner and whenever they go for runs, she’s like, “ Got to make up speed on the downhills. ” Jason is not willing to do that on a training run, and it’s the same thing for rucking
Going downhill is a leg workout
One of Peter’s favorite workouts is a heavy 80-100 lb pack He doesn’t do this often because this truly is a workout Where he lives, there are 4 short but very steep hills, and it’s up and down all 4
Jason and Michael Easter have gotten into carrying 100 lbs for 1 mile ‒ baseline your time against that
He’s going at the safest pace possible when he goes down
Whereas, going up, he’s really limited by his cardio system He’s basically going up as fast as his lungs will carry him
He’s basically going up as fast as his lungs will carry him
Jason is not willing to do that on a training run, and it’s the same thing for rucking
He doesn’t do this often because this truly is a workout
Where he lives, there are 4 short but very steep hills, and it’s up and down all 4

What’s a benchmark time that one should think of for a 100 lb? And you’re doing this as a shuffle?

What gets exhausting is when you change too much from a walk to a shuffle You need to pick a cadence that you can maintain
It might take Jason 9:30 to shuffle a mile with 100 lbs on his back
Peter was about to say that 10 minutes sounds like it would be pretty tough
Jason has seen a really competitive runner do it in 6:30 That’s insanity It’s still a VO 2 max type of game
He wonders at what point it starts being more about a strength carry (a really extreme weight?) Peter thinks that with a heavy enough weight where you can’t shuffle, it probably shifts more to pure strength
You need to pick a cadence that you can maintain
That’s insanity
It’s still a VO 2 max type of game
Peter thinks that with a heavy enough weight where you can’t shuffle, it probably shifts more to pure strength

The value of rucking for sleep

Jason prioritizes how well he sleeps
Getting steps counts, and some percentage of those with weight on his back is a useful tool for him to sleep well
It’s also fun to have challenges with a ruck on his back, he harkens back to those days when he did that, and the foot races

Advice for using rucking as a mode of training, and the advantages of rucking over other forms of training [2:12:45]

What do we know about the plates?

GORUCK sells these amazing plates that make this so easy to plug-and-play They slot right into the pack
They slot right into the pack

What’s the over-under on TSA pre here in the US allowing those through security?

Peter adds that it would be great to be able to takes plates along when he travels, and even to just utilize them in the time he’s at the airport
Jason has personally done this 50 times and they’ve never been confiscated
There’s a raging debate inside of the GORUCK community and a lot of people have gotten their plates confiscated (enough to where it comes up)
Jason has found that the best way to do it First off, you have to be willing to check it or sacrifice it if it doesn’t go through But you separate it out: you put it in its own thing You can put a little descriptor on what it is, or you have to be ready to tell them what it is The more people that know what rucking is, the more likely it’ll be okay
First off, you have to be willing to check it or sacrifice it if it doesn’t go through
But you separate it out: you put it in its own thing You can put a little descriptor on what it is, or you have to be ready to tell them what it is The more people that know what rucking is, the more likely it’ll be okay
You can put a little descriptor on what it is, or you have to be ready to tell them what it is
The more people that know what rucking is, the more likely it’ll be okay

Have you got a sense of whether the people who are getting confiscated are lighter plates versus heavier plates?

The heavier ones are more likely to get confiscated
Jason has always carried a 20 or 30 lb plate to the airport

The other thing Jason does is use a stuff sack instead of a plate

You get somewhere and you can find rocks outside the hotel Finding 20 lbs of that is not hard
You can wrap a dumbbell from the hotel gym (which he’s done) It’s not as nice of a ride
There’s the ability to multi-use things that you travel with Use your dirty clothes bag and put rocks in it
The reason Peter wants to bring the plate is when he goes on vacation to Europe or something where you’re not going to have the luxury of going to the gym every day, but you are going to walk 10 miles a day
Jason has also had success with a sandbag that goes in and takes up a little bit more volume, but isn’t iron It’s not always great stacking; but it’s easy in, easy out
Finding 20 lbs of that is not hard
It’s not as nice of a ride
Use your dirty clothes bag and put rocks in it
It’s not always great stacking; but it’s easy in, easy out

You mentioned the treadmill earlier, what are the advantages or disadvantages to rucking on a treadmill?

The disadvantages are very clear: you’re not outside Michael Easter talked about these fractals and you’re missing out on sunshine and wind and light and all of that kind of stuff
Some advantages to treadmills are simply safety and practicality
Jason has a couple friends that are surgeons at Mayo and they get home at 3:00 in the morning and they want to get their workout in then, and they’re on their treadmill
Michael Easter talked about these fractals and you’re missing out on sunshine and wind and light and all of that kind of stuff

You should do what works for you

Americans are spending around 93% of their time indoors now
Give yourself a little bit more freedom to go outside
Jason is more comfortable walking around with a rucksack on than he is with a weight vest or a big giant hiking hunting pack You kind of look like you can blend in You can go ruck and get the groceries You can bake it in
Treadmills are fine
Staring at some screen the whole time, there are other downsides to that
You kind of look like you can blend in
You can go ruck and get the groceries
You can bake it in

If somebody wants to do one of these really extreme events like the 80 kilometer Normandy challenge, how do they train for it?

Peter explains that we really know how to train for a marathon
He wants to know the build pattern of volume to get ready for something like this
You need to do a marathon
You need to at least do 40K
The way Jason has always cheated the distance is by adding weight and trying to maintain the same speed

Jason is trying to do the 80K in under 20 hours

So you’ll need to be able to ruck a marathon in 10 hours

How much weight is this event done with?

25 lbs (not that much)

How much would you increase that to maintain the pace? You’d go 50 pounds or something?

50-60 lbs almost all the time
Jason never trains with 25 lbs
You can also do what he was talking about earlier with the sock system to toughen up your feet
With rucking, you can go a certain distance and drop your weight to go faster Picking up speed, you’re hitting systems a little bit differently in the same type of movement
You have to experiment with it
Unlike running, you have this other variable you can control 100 lbs is a lot different than 60 lbs And you reach this point where an incremental amount of weight added feels like an exponential amount of weight added That can change over time relative to how much you ruck or what you’re comfortable with
Picking up speed, you’re hitting systems a little bit differently in the same type of movement
100 lbs is a lot different than 60 lbs
And you reach this point where an incremental amount of weight added feels like an exponential amount of weight added That can change over time relative to how much you ruck or what you’re comfortable with
That can change over time relative to how much you ruck or what you’re comfortable with

If you have 1 hour

You can do a lot of different things
You can go lighter and faster
You can go heavier and slower
You can go middle-of-the-road and try to push on one of those systems a little bit more, and that’s fun

Jason’s goal is for rucking to be the new running

The goal is that rucking is bigger than running

What’s that going to take?

We’re in the early stages of it
First off, it takes awareness that people are actually rucking Everybody that joins the military is rucking Now you’ve got millions of people
You go to airports: roll bags and stacking stuff so that everything is easy all the time You sit on a flight for 10 hours and then you stand on a walking escalator, and then you go sit at your gate? Don’t do that Put everything on your back; you have hands-free movement (that’s freedom) You can do this at the airport, while you’re traveling
Go to Europe, there’s cobblestone roads, and roll bags are just not… (it’s just a ball and chain around your life)
The first step is to just say, “ This is better because, ” and you get people to buy into that
Then there’s just the physiological side: this is extremely healthy for people to do
Everybody that joins the military is rucking Now you’ve got millions of people
Now you’ve got millions of people
You sit on a flight for 10 hours and then you stand on a walking escalator, and then you go sit at your gate?
Don’t do that
Put everything on your back; you have hands-free movement (that’s freedom)
You can do this at the airport, while you’re traveling

“ The best things that you want out of life require passion and energy and activity… and the more that you do, the more confident that you get doing things. ”‒ Jason McCarthy

This is a really important lesson that everybody has to relearn throughout the course of their life: you have to keep doing stuff
The body is anti-fragile
The more that you work it, the stronger it gets That’s an amazing thing that we have, and to not know what we’re capable of is just a shame
Let’s intentionally do these physically harder things than nothing, than just living our lives on phones, or always standing to then sit, to never move
That’s an amazing thing that we have, and to not know what we’re capable of is just a shame

There’s so much benefit that comes from your ability to move yourself and to carry weight, and you are built and born and have evolved in order to do this

Peter adds, “ It is our superpower, right? Michael wrote about this in The Comfort Crisis that there’s nothing that’s evolved to carry more than we do. ”
You can work it into your life
The risk of injury is fractional
Most people would count a hour and a half with 60 lbs on their back as exercise

The scalability, it’s a very simple thing to do. You carry weight.

It’s not a new machine that’s going to turn into a towel rack
It’s not Mr. Spandex yelling at you through some screen on a bike
It’s not a new band
It’s none of these gimmicks
It’s so simple; this has been going on for millenia
It’s been proven in all of the special operations communities
It’s foundational to our ability to survive and thrive as a species
Jason explains, “ It’s such an unlock in our lives when you take this kind of responsibility and you say, ‘I want to be a more active person,’ and all of a sudden, you’re around active people. You’re figuring out how to move forward .”
It’s very much tied to a mental outlook of life Do you want to take your two fingers and roll your bag onto the walkway and stand there, and then go find a seat and sit down and stare at your phone? Or do you want to take the bull by the horns?
Do you want to take your two fingers and roll your bag onto the walkway and stand there, and then go find a seat and sit down and stare at your phone?
Or do you want to take the bull by the horns?

One of the things Peter talks about with patients is this marginal decade, and what are the activities you want to be able to do in the last decade of your life

These are quantifiable things that are noted very specifically
Peter wants to be able to ruck 3 miles over uneven surface with 20 lbs on his back
Peter is so grateful for what Jason is doing
He hopes that a lot more people are going to try rucking after listening to his

He suspects they will experience what he and everybody he’s dragged on a ruck has experienced, which is: “ I’m going to do that regularly. ”

Selected Links / Related Material

Jason’s company : GORUCK (2024) | [1:15, 6:30, 1:10:30, 1:16:00]

Book about the experience of war : Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging by Sebastian Junger (2016) | [55:15]

GORUCK rucksacks : Training rucksacks | GORUCK (2024) | [1:38:00]

GORUCK footwear : Footwear | GORUCK (2024) | [1:57:45]

Michael Easter’s book : The Comfort Crisis: Embrace Discomfort To Reclaim Your Wild, Happy, Healthy Self by Michael Easter (2021) | [2:15:45]

Fitness festival : Sandlot Jax Fitness Festival | Go Ruck Sandlot Jax (2024)

People Mentioned

Michael Easter (best-selling author of The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain ) [3:45, 1:45:30, 2:11:30, 2:15:45, 2:21:45]
Johnny (Mike) Spann (CIA officer and first American killed in the 2001 Afghanistan invasion) [10:45, 1:00:45]
Sebastian Junger (New York Times bestselling author, journalist, and documentary filmmaker) [55:15]
Jocko Willink (retired Navy SEAL and co-founder of Echelon Front) [1:15:45]
Andrew Huberman (Professor of Neurobiology, and by courtesy, of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford School of Medicine and host of the podcast Huberman Lab ) [1:45:15]
Paul Litchfield (athletic shoe designer who invented the Reebok pump) [1:58:15]

Jason McCarthy earned a Bachelor’s degree in Economics from Emory University, where he was a 3x Academic All-American. After 9/11, he enlisted in the US Army and became a Green Beret in the Special Forces. He served in Iraq, West Africa, and Europe. He received a Bronze Star and Army Commendation Medal with “V” Device (indicating valor). Jason went on to earn a Masters of Business Administration from Georgetown University. In 2008, Jason co-founded GORUCK with his wife Emily. Their goal was to build a rucksack with life or death quality standards that would thrive in Baghdad and NYC. In addition to building the toughest rucking gear, they organize training, events, and GORUCK clubs. The Sandlot JAX Fitness Festival is one such event where the goal is to make fitness fun. Jason also serves on the Board of Directors of the Green Beret Foundation , a non-profit organization that supports present and past Green Berets and their families. [ Forbes and GORUCK ]

Instagram: jasonjmccarthy

X (formerly Twitter): @GORUCK

Website: GORUCK

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