podcast Peter Attia 2024-04-29 topics

Special episode with Dax Shepard: F1 and the 30th anniversary of Ayrton Senna's death

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Show notes

This is a special episode of The Drive with Peter’s friend and fellow car enthusiast Dax Shepard. In this podcast, which commemorates the 30th anniversary of the death of Brazilian Formula One legend Ayrton Senna, Dax sits down with Peter to better understand what made Senna so special and why Peter remains an enormous fan. This conversation focuses on Senna’s life, the circumstances of his death, and his lasting impact and legacy on the sport of F1.

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We discuss:

Peter’s interest in motorsports began as a child [2:30];
The drama and dangers of F1 [6:00];
What made Senna special [13:00];
What Senna meant to Brazilians [24:00];
The cause of the fatal crash [28:15];
Why Peter is obsessed with Senna [40:30];
Being the best versus having the best record [43:30];
Senna’s unique driving style and incredible intuition about automotive engineering [46:30];
Back to the day of the dreadful race [53:00];
What Peter believes caused the crash [1:02:45];
Views on dying young, in the prime of life [1:13:00;
Senna lives on in his foundation and in safety changes adopted by F1 [1:21:00];
Statistics aren’t enough for fandom, and why people like who they do [1:24:15];
The biggest difference between F1 today and F1 in the 80s [1:28:30];
Senna’s driving superpower [1:30:30];
The fastest drivers currently in F1 [1:38:30];
Current F1 obsessions [1:45:00];
How hard it is to do what the top F1 drivers do [1:50:15];
Dax’s love of motorcycles and his AMG E63 station wagon [1:52:15];
Awesome Senna mementos from Etsy [2:01:15];
What makes Specialists interesting, and Max’s devotion to F1 [2:10:15];
What Senna might have done if he had not died that day [2:14:00];
Michael Schumacher and Max Verstappen are also top F1 drivers [2:17:30];
Interlagos in Sao Paulo Brazil is always an incredible experience [2:18:45]; and
More.

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Show Notes

Notes from intro :
Welcome to a bonus episode of The Drive with Dax Shepard, Peter’s friend and fellow car enthusiast
The purpose of this podcast is to commemorate the 30th anniversary of Ayrton Senna’s death, May 1st, 1994
Dax was not a fan of F1 at the time of Senna’s death, but in the last 5-6 years he’s become a fan of F1
Dax has a fascination with Peter’s obsession with Senna, and he want to sit down with Peter to better understand why he remains an enormous fan of Senna all these years after his death
This episode focuses on a lot of things that have to do with F1 racing, some of it in the modern era
But it mostly focuses on Senna’s life, his death, the circumstances of his death, and his lasting impact and legacy on the sport

Peter’s interest in motorsports began as a child [2:30]

Growing up in Canada, IndyCar was incredibly popular and F1 was incredibly popular
You have Montreal for F1
You always had the IndyCar in Toronto race
And because Peter’s dad was in the restaurant business, he was buying beer by the truckload and Molson was the beer in Canada, and they would give you tickets They went to races
When Peter came of age in the 80s he was really into cars He had posters of cars and boxers on his wall
Dax was also obsessed with cars, but never overly obsessed with racing
He would go to Belle Isle to see Indy car because his family worked in the automotive business There was not RV coverage, and you just got to watch the profile of a car for 1/10th of a second He couldn’t buy in
Today F1 is one of the sports that is infinitely better on television, from a total experience in terms of understanding what’s going on
That said, Peter probably goes to 3 races a year
The sound though is nowhere near as good in the 80s Once the hybrid era cam in 2014
Dax is late to the F1 obsession
The first racing he loved was MotoGP 20 years ago
They went to races
He had posters of cars and boxers on his wall
There was not RV coverage, and you just got to watch the profile of a car for 1/10th of a second He couldn’t buy in
He couldn’t buy in
Once the hybrid era cam in 2014

The drama and dangers of F1 [6:00]

Max is a Drive to Survive convert Peter loves it
Dax loves finding out about how relevant the aerodynamics are and how high-tech it is
The show does a great job shing the drama that exists between 14th and 8th place How important it is that these teams finish in the points or to get one point
The Max/ Lewis season of 2021 was exceptional
The last 2 episodes of the prior season were 2 of the finest: “Man on Fire” & “Guenther’s Choice”
Peter loves it
How important it is that these teams finish in the points or to get one point

This highlighted: when you’re watching a sport like F1 or MotoGP or anything for that matter, there is a real chance a person could die, and it’s really frightening when you see some of these accidents

Dax points out they’re going 205 mph
There was a day when most of these accidents were fatal Until the early 80s 2-4 F1 drivers died a year
Dax and Peter have been talking all week about the many thing that have changed so dramatically
They’re both watching the series Turning Point To learn that in 1 night of bombing of Tokyo, 87,000 people died That’s more than all of Vietnam, by a factor of 30,000
We don’t have the appetite for any of that stuff anymore
Peter started watching F1 religiously in the late 80s when he was a kid, but his obsession was much more boxing
F1 would come on on bizarre hours
When he got into med school and became friend switch Paul Conti , and they immediately connected over their shared obsession for F1 and for Senna
Until the early 80s 2-4 F1 drivers died a year
To learn that in 1 night of bombing of Tokyo, 87,000 people died That’s more than all of Vietnam, by a factor of 30,000
That’s more than all of Vietnam, by a factor of 30,000

The late 80s-early 90s was the golden era of F1, there was an insane depth of talent

You had Niki Lauda at the end of his career, still winning a championship in the mid 80s. And then the arrival of Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, of course, Nelson Piquet and Senna
Dax walked through McLaren through the boulevard and noted how small the F1 cars are (like Go-Karts)
They were 500 kilo cars back then but could still make >1000 hp

What made Senna special [13:00]

His qualifying is remarkable

By today’s standards, Senna wasn’t around very long ‒ he died in his 161st race Max is only 26 years old and he’s long past that number of races Lewis is at more than 2 X that number of races
Max is only 26 years old and he’s long past that number of races
Lewis is at more than 2 X that number of races

Senna’s qualifying percentage to how many times he was on pole position ‒ nobody’s within a country mile

65 poles in 161 races

He won 3 titles (technically 4)

Peter will explain later why he had one stolen from him

Looking at other titles, it begs the question: why is everyone so obsessed with him?

He only raced for 10 years
The 65 pole stat says a lot
Dax explains, “ This is another thing I’ve come to love about F1 is P1 in qualifying to P20 is often three tenths of a second … and within the top five, the first three are often in the hundreds of seconds. ” The margin is so unfathomable
The margin is so unfathomable

One of the most epic, legendary stories of Senna: qualifying for the 1988 Monaco race

Senna is the rookie on the team
The car (the MP4/4 ) is still to this day regarded as the greatest car ever in F1

Figure 1. The McLaren-Honda MP4/4 F1 car . Image credit: Wikipedia

That car won 15 of 16 races between Senna and Prost The time it didn’t win; Senna got taken out by a back marker The closest we’ve seen to that is last year’s Red Bull , which won all but one race
Prost is the 2-time world champion, the reigning world champion
They’re at Monaco, which is generally regarded as the most difficult circuit The margin for error is non-existent Senna has won Monaco 6x
You’ve got a field of world champions in superior cars in front of him as a rookie His F1 rookie year, 1984, he’s in the Toleman
He’s driving a garbage truck back there, but it starts raining cats and dogs
⅔ through the race, he is closing in on Alain Prost
And in the final lap of what would become the final lap, he passes him
But race stewards decide to halt the race at the preceding lap
He is still awarded second place, which is unfathomable as his first podium
Dax points out, “ The first major fucking he receives from the FIA ”
We should add that Monaco is the hardest track to pass on in the whole calendar Today it’s impossible to pass on Back in the day, cars were smaller
To this day, Monaco is still one of the most exciting qualifying, because the stakes are so high
The time it didn’t win; Senna got taken out by a back marker
The closest we’ve seen to that is last year’s Red Bull , which won all but one race
The margin for error is non-existent
Senna has won Monaco 6x
His F1 rookie year, 1984, he’s in the Toleman
Today it’s impossible to pass on
Back in the day, cars were smaller

1988, Senna not only qualifies on pole, something he would do repeatedly, he does so by a margin that is deemed impossible to comprehend

His teammate is arguable arguably one of the greatest drivers of all time, Alain Prost , driving the same car, and he out qualifies him by 1.47 seconds
Senna was already on pole when he decided he wanted to go out and do one more lap It’s the stuff of F1 lore because the lap was not captured on camera All you have is the time sheet
He was out of this world
The next day in the race, he is leading by so much that the team is telling him to slow down
There might’ve been 8 laps to go, and he’s ahead by 30 seconds Dax recently rewatched the thing and that the point he crashed, he was 56 seconds ahead of Prost
Senna lost concentration for a nanosecond, a very rare event in his life, and crashed
He’s so angry that he literally got out of the car, through his stuff and went to his apartment
It’s the stuff of F1 lore because the lap was not captured on camera
All you have is the time sheet
Dax recently rewatched the thing and that the point he crashed, he was 56 seconds ahead of Prost

The cars in that era ran a much higher horsepower during qualifying

They dialed them way up in a way that they don’t do today
Today you’re playing with tires, fuel load, and battery pack
You couldn’t race at that horsepower because you didn’t have the reliability (it was too dangerous) They’re in the 12-1400 hp range
These are naturally aspirated V10s, V12s The compression must have been ear-splitting
Dax summarizes the elements that bolster people’s fascination with Senna, “ There’s the record, there’s the dying early, that’s very James Dean… For me, I like him because he seemed like an outsider. The Brazilianess of it all makes me like him more. But also… he’s very sexy .”
They’re in the 12-1400 hp range
The compression must have been ear-splitting

After Senna’s death, Peter learned much more about him

He died in 1994 when Peter was in college He didn’t have an internet to read more about it
Much of what Peter knows about him today is based on things he can read today
He’s met Senna’s family and knows his niece
He didn’t have an internet to read more about it

What Senna meant to Brazilians [24:00]

An example of this is when a person from Brazil discovers that Peter named his son Ayrton after Senna, everything changes Come into my house for food
For someone in Brazil, if you’re over the age of 35 today, you take JFK, 9-11, the Challenger That’s what May 1st, 1994 was
The entire country, every Sunday would stop to watch this It’s not like the NFL here where a lot of people watch it
Come into my house for food
That’s what May 1st, 1994 was
It’s not like the NFL here where a lot of people watch it

Japan is a close second

All 3 of his titles were in Honda powered cars, and the engineers at Honda loved him

Dax asks, “ how did their salaries back then compare to current salaries? ”

When you adjust for inflation, if you were at the very, very top ‒ Senna was making a million dollars a race Doing 16 races a year
Max is the highest paid guy in F1 today, and he’s making 50 million euros
Doing 16 races a year

Dax imagines there’s some archetype about Senna that Peter likes beyond the racing

Is it the outsider-ness?

He was flawed
He’s not a perfect perfect person, nor did he try to represent himself as that
He could be overly emotional

The cause of the fatal crash [28:15]

Peter doesn’t believe his fatal crash resulted from the steering column failure

Which is the most commonly held view of his death
For many years after the crash, Peter believed that he he died because the steering column failed
What actually killed him is not in dispute: an aileron, a piece on the suspension that came off

But why did he crash to begin with?

The conventional view is that the steering column failed

The horrible circumstances of the weekend of Senna’s death

April 29th, April 30th, and May 1st 1994: he was in a race called Imola
On that Friday during the first practice, another Brazilian driver ( Rubens Barrichello ) has a brutal crash What’s amazing is he was only concussed and split open, but actually survived Senna was shaken up This was a kid he was mentoring
The next day, an Austrian rookie ( Roland Ratzenberger ) who Senna also had taken under his wing was killed in practice This was the first death in F1 in 12 years
The race should have been canceled after Roland’s death
Roland died on the track, but the organizers of the race wanted the race to go on, so they airlifted him out of there to pronounce him dead at a hospital
They were doing cardiac massage on him at the track
Senna, against the instructions of the marshals, got into a car, drove to where he died, and was reprimanded terribly for doing so
Senna’s trainer Josef Leberer told Peter that he’d never seen Senna more angry in the entire time he knew him than that evening because of how pissed he was at how the marshals had been so angry at him for going to see Roland at the site of the accident
Dax adds, “ Which is a pattern of his right? He also had gone out on P1 and stood where that had happened. And that’s kind of a thing he did, right? ”
What’s amazing is he was only concussed and split open, but actually survived
Senna was shaken up This was a kid he was mentoring
This was a kid he was mentoring
This was the first death in F1 in 12 years

“ This is the thing about Senna that’s also kind of an interesting paradox. On the one hand, he was the most competitive… and yet he would be the first person to stop and rescue you, and help you if you were hurt .”‒ Peter Attia

At times he did things where he literally put other drivers and his own lives in danger out of pure competitive drive

Other details about the circumstances of that weekend

This is race #3 of the season
Senna hates his car He had gone to Williams thinking he was going to get the electronically adjusted suspension Senna in 1980 arrives at McLaren, and he’s driving for the best team Senna was only in the best car 4 out of the 10 years he raced (‘88-91) You always have to look at how many years was a driver in the best car
He had gone to Williams thinking he was going to get the electronically adjusted suspension
Senna in 1980 arrives at McLaren, and he’s driving for the best team
Senna was only in the best car 4 out of the 10 years he raced (‘88-91) You always have to look at how many years was a driver in the best car
You always have to look at how many years was a driver in the best car

There’s a regulation change and a power shift happens

The power shifts from McLaren to Williams
In ’92 and ’93, Williams was so technically superior to not just McLaren, but everyone else on the field.
Senna wanted to join the Williams team, but there wasn’t a seat at the time Prost specifically said, “ I won’t race with him .” So Senna spends 1 more year at McLaren
Prost specifically said, “ I won’t race with him .”
So Senna spends 1 more year at McLaren

Funny story

Senna was having a contract holdup with McLaren, and to sort of flex his muscles a little bit, he came to the US, did a day of testing in IndyCar
By the end of his first day of testing, he was driving faster than any of the IndyCar drivers
Dax points out, “ That transference hasn’t gone as well in the last 20 years when F1 drivers have gone to Indy. ” (it’s hard)

Back to the lead-up to that weekend

Prost retires at the end of ’93, and Senna finally gets to go to Williams The team that’s won the last 2 titles, and they will be the most dominant car for the next 4 years (though nobody knows it at the time)
The team that’s won the last 2 titles, and they will be the most dominant car for the next 4 years (though nobody knows it at the time)

Rule change to remove active suspension

Unbeknownst to Senna, because of this rule change, the car for the beginning of the ’94 season was an undrivable technical debacle
They’re scrambling to reinvent their entire suspension at that point
Peter has become good friends with Damon Hill (Senna’s teammate that year) Damon was on the podcast 5 years ago [ episode #86 ] Damon’s one of the most underrated world champions in F1 He won the World Championship in 1995 He’s the son of Graham Hill, a two-time world champion, making him one of only 2 father son F1 champions
Damon drove the car in ‘93 when it was the best car ever, and then he knew what it was later
Damon basically said, “ Look, the car was God damn undrivable. It was so scary. It was like being on a knife’s edge every minute of every lap of every drive. ”
Damon was on the podcast 5 years ago [ episode #86 ]
Damon’s one of the most underrated world champions in F1
He won the World Championship in 1995
He’s the son of Graham Hill, a two-time world champion, making him one of only 2 father son F1 champions

“ For people watching us who don’t understand what it’s like to drive a race car, the goal of driving a race car is to be at the limit of the car. You’re always at the limit of what the car can do .”‒ Peter Attia

But you couldn’t drive that care near the limit
Yet Senna still managed to drive it close to the limit

Races earlier in that season

The first race of that year was in Brazil and Senna gets on pole
Hard to imaging in that car
Then with a few laps to go, he actually spins out on a corner He just couldn’t control this thing
Next race, he again gets it on pole
BTW, he’s got a young Michael Schumacher biting at his heels He is in the Benetton: the best car that year A lot of controversy about whether that car was cheating that year with traction control
In that race, he’s on pole, but he gets hit from behind in the first corner He’s out of that race
He just couldn’t control this thing
He is in the Benetton: the best car that year A lot of controversy about whether that car was cheating that year with traction control
A lot of controversy about whether that car was cheating that year with traction control
He’s out of that race

Now we go into Imola

Remember, this is a 16-race season, and 2 races are down
Senna has zero points
Schumacher has won both of those races (he’s got 20 points)
So Senna’s feeling the weight of the world on his shoulders

He has to be perfect for the rest of the season, and certainly he has to win this race in Imola

Up until that point in time, Senna already has the record for most wins at Imola This is a circuit he knows well It’s a very hard circuit
Aside: Peter just started driving it in the simulator a few months ago, getting ready for his trip out there; and it’s tough
This is a circuit he knows well
It’s a very hard circuit
Peter explains, “ Everything goes wrong. So you start out with what we talked about on Friday. You’ve got Barrichello nearly dies on Saturday, Ratzenberger dies. Senna is in no mood to drive on Sunday .”

That Saturday night

It’s Josef Leberer’s birthday and they’re out at a pizza place celebrating, but the mood is somber
Senna is incredibly angry about the scolding he took for going to see Ratzenberger
He is very unhappy with the car, doesn’t feel that the car is safe
That day he had spoken with Niki Lauda who encouraged him to bring back the driver’s association for safety Niki was now the most senior driver in F1, now that Prost had retired This association had fallen by the wayside
Senna agreed that the next race at Monaco, they would reinitiate the driver’s safety group
Niki was now the most senior driver in F1, now that Prost had retired
This association had fallen by the wayside

Senna said to Josef that night that he didn’t want to really race the next day (for the first time ever). Yet Senna said, “There’s no way I can’t race. The people of Brazil need this, and they’re hurting way more than I am.”

Why Peter is obsessed with Senna [40:30]

It’s kind of like the death wish, in a way, but also realizing it’s bigger than him
Senna really felt like, “ I don’t want to do this. I don’t feel safe doing this, but there’s a hundred million people who need me to do this, and they’re in worse shape than I am .”
Dax compares it to the lead character in The Fountainhead The lead character (Howard Roark) is roughly based on the architect, Frank Lloyd Wright He is a man who always knew what he wanted, always had a vision, never compromised, pissed a lot of people off, but ultimately was always right
Dax thinks that archetype, when you’re a young man, is incredibly appealing
He explains it was like, “ Yeah, maybe I know what’s right. I don’t have to listen to anyone else, and then I’ll be proven I’m right at the end of it .” Dax wonders how much of his high level of disagreeability
The lead character (Howard Roark) is roughly based on the architect, Frank Lloyd Wright
He is a man who always knew what he wanted, always had a vision, never compromised, pissed a lot of people off, but ultimately was always right
Dax wonders how much of his high level of disagreeability

Senna versus Prost

Prost was great at playing the political game
The head of the FIA was also French, and was clearly was helping him the whole, with every dispute between Prost and Senna
Senna was just so disagreeable and outspoken, and didn’t give a shit if anyone liked him

Dax asks, “ Is that part of his personality? ”

Yes
But also there was, “ I’m going to win or it doesn’t matter .”
Prost’s nickname was “The Professor” The reason for that was among other things, he was very smart, and very strategic, and very calculating If he was in a race and he was in 3rd place, he would think to himself, logically, “ I am playing the long game here, ” which is, “ I’m better off coming in third and getting my six or seven or eight points here if I don’t think I can win. ”
The reason for that was among other things, he was very smart, and very strategic, and very calculating
If he was in a race and he was in 3rd place, he would think to himself, logically, “ I am playing the long game here, ” which is, “ I’m better off coming in third and getting my six or seven or eight points here if I don’t think I can win. ”

Senna only wanted to win. He would crash out of a race to take a shot at winning. He just didn’t care for second, third, or fourth.

“ [Senna] He wasn’t competing against anybody else. He was competing against what perfection could be. ”‒ Peter Attia

Dax explains Senna’s appeal, “ To see that someone is in pursuit of something that’s even higher than first place is appealing as a character type. But there’s some punk rockness to him .”

Being the best versus having the best record [43:30]

If you’re a record junkie your favorite driver would have to be Lewis or Schumacker

Football analogy

Barry Sanders doesn’t have the records He’s not the leading rusher He doesn’t have the most yards He doesn’t have the most touchdowns He has no Super Bowls
By any statistic Barry Sanders is not actually the best, but he was the greatest running back of all time Because there are intangible fact
He’s not the leading rusher
He doesn’t have the most yards
He doesn’t have the most touchdowns
He has no Super Bowls
Because there are intangible fact

With Senna, there’s a characteristic of his driving, and Peter thinks most drivers would agree he’s the greatest of all time

Other great drivers

We might be getting to the point where we can start to say Max is in the top 3 This is a kid who won a race at 17
Peter asks, “ Where does Fangio belong in all of this? ” It’s not just that he won five titles It’s are you judging a driver against his peers? He won 5 titles in 4 cars
This is a kid who won a race at 17
It’s not just that he won five titles
It’s are you judging a driver against his peers?
He won 5 titles in 4 cars

This becomes the same challenge as evaluating boxers because you really have to look at who they were fighting

Senna’s unique driving style and incredible intuition about automotive engineering [46:30]

Dax has come across videos where people are pointing out that Senna had this very unique habit of stabbing the gas, which to me seems completely counterintuitive to what you’d want to do

What was his rationale and how unique was that?

It was very unique
Senna had a habit of when he was coming out of a corner of stabbing the gas Stab, stab, stab, and then on full
Regular mortals come back onto the throttle gradually If you come on too much, you’re going to lose the rear of the car So you’re coming off the brake, you’re coming onto the throttle The mantra is: smooth is fast
Senna did something very different
Stab, stab, stab, and then on full
If you come on too much, you’re going to lose the rear of the car
So you’re coming off the brake, you’re coming onto the throttle The mantra is: smooth is fast
The mantra is: smooth is fast

It was hypothesized this was done to get rid of the turbo lag and he would get back to full power quicker than everybody else

He was keeping the RPMs as high as possible, such that when he got back to full power, there was no lag and he was gone
People actually hypothesized that he would struggle when they went back to naturally aspirated cars Here’s the weird thing: he kept doing it and he didn’t struggle
Peter adds, “ That’s one of the things I don’t think I have a great explanation for why he was doing it other than he had clearly always been doing it. Like this is how he drove karts .”
Here’s the weird thing: he kept doing it and he didn’t struggle

“ His car control really was remarkable. And that’s one of the beautiful things about that era of F1 is the cars were so much harder to drive .”‒ Peter Attia

Cars in that era of F1 and Senna’s amazing abilities

The cars were much harder to drive
There was less downforce, no power steering, a manual gearbox
Look at an onboard Senna drives in places like Monaco where you have to be able to drive the car Most people would take it within a foot of a wall He would take it within 3 inches of the wall to maximize the size of the track for him And he’s doing this one-handed with no power steering while shifting They have to use a clutch
Most people would take it within a foot of a wall
He would take it within 3 inches of the wall to maximize the size of the track for him And he’s doing this one-handed with no power steering while shifting They have to use a clutch
And he’s doing this one-handed with no power steering while shifting
They have to use a clutch

Onboard of Senna at Monaco 1990 . Credit: FORMULA 1

Onboard of Senna’s pole position lap at Monaco 1990 Credit: alvrub2011

Dax recently saw a great video of Senna driving an NSX in loafers, and he’s just sideways on the pedals He’s so busy
He’s so busy

Video of Senna driving a NSX in loafers . Credit: MaxxUK

The Honda engineers loved him

Senna helped develop the NSX
Peter has actually sat in his NSX It still sits at his brother’s home in Sao Paulo
It still sits at his brother’s home in Sao Paulo

Dax asks, “Where was Senna’s technical aptitude for actually developing the car?”

To Dax’s knowledge, Schumacher had an incredible engineering mind (very mechanical) He could help them develop the car in a way that most drivers couldn’t
Senna was very similar
And he was very committed to giving feedback
This is difficult, Peter explains, “ As someone who drives a car myself, it’s hard to put in words like how dumb I am. I’ll go out in a car and I’ll know that it’s not right. But I can’t tell you why .”
Dax agrees He aced for a season in the Super Trofeo series in Lamborghinis He has rebuilt engines and cars He is really mechanical, but actually articulating what he thinks needs to happen, is an entirely different knowledge that he doesn’t have currently
He could help them develop the car in a way that most drivers couldn’t
He aced for a season in the Super Trofeo series in Lamborghinis
He has rebuilt engines and cars
He is really mechanical, but actually articulating what he thinks needs to happen, is an entirely different knowledge that he doesn’t have currently

In current F1 drivers, Dax thinks there are very few that can give them super specific feedback the way that Schumacher can (or Senna could)

Back to the day of the dreadful race [53:00]

Senna manages to somehow wrangle pole for the third consecutive race of that season in an undrivable car that’s on a knife’s edge
He has to win this race
On the first lap, he gets away clean, and 7 cars behind him, 1 of the cars stalls on the grid, gets plowed by another car, immediate safety car This was back in a day when the safety cars were insanely slow Today, most people would notice that they have the fastest street cars available as the safety cars, and the reason for that is these cars have to be kept moving quickly to keep the tire temperature high
This was back in a day when the safety cars were insanely slow Today, most people would notice that they have the fastest street cars available as the safety cars, and the reason for that is these cars have to be kept moving quickly to keep the tire temperature high
Today, most people would notice that they have the fastest street cars available as the safety cars, and the reason for that is these cars have to be kept moving quickly to keep the tire temperature high

The temperature of the tires is everything

If the tires are cool, they are bricks It’s like driving ice bricks under the car
When you’re watching F1, you may notice during a formation lap or during a safety car, the cars will weave side to side That’s to put friction in the tire, you have to keep the tire warm
So you want a safety car to be able to go as fast as possible
It’s like driving ice bricks under the car
That’s to put friction in the tire, you have to keep the tire warm

The teams in F1 have the best aerodynamicists on the planet

Some teams have $400 million at their disposal
Adrian Newey is better than anyone at NASA
Dax explains, “ If you sit up next to, close to a car, it’s boggling how advanced and technological this thing is. ”

But then you have to remember all of it has to transfer through four rubber tires

This is a great neutralizing fact about Formula One
It’s like it doesn’t really matter what you do to that car because at the end of the day, you will have the built-in limits of a piece of rubber touching asphalt

They all have the same tires

They all use the same rubber compound
The difference between drivers is that one is way better at getting more pace out of a tire for longer
And that’s why head to head, there’s no comparison between Max and Charles , because one guy always knows how to maximize the life of his tire
Dax points out, “ They generally give credit to the car design in that situation .” It’s hard to parse out what is driver But then you can watch their teammates and figure that out
Peter explains this is something Lewis did when he was at his prime
It’s hard to parse out what is driver But then you can watch their teammates and figure that out
But then you can watch their teammates and figure that out

6th lap of the race

The safety car comes out and they spend through lap 5 cleaning up
The 6th lap is the first flying lap of the race ‒ on cold tires

The fastest lap of the race is always documented, and today a point is given for it

In lap #6, Senna is off like a dart

Tamburello

Damon Hill explained this to Peter in great detail
The curve where ultimately Senna would die on the 7th lap is called Tamburello It’s a very high speed, left-hander It’s a curve that no longer exists at Imola It’s deemed too dangerous There were too many bad accidents there Senna’s being the final and most deadly
As Damon explained it, nobody took the driving line at Tamburello because it was too bumpy And to be on a bumpy line, when you’re going a 100, and probably 205 miles per hour, you would just choose to go a little slower and drive on a smoother part of the track, even though it’s a longer distance
Tamburello is near the beginning of the lap; it’s the first big curve of the lap
As they come past the start finish line to lap six, Damon notices that even though they’re on really cold tires, Senna takes the racing line through Tamburello He’s thinking to himself, “ What in the hell is he doing? Why would you take this risk? ” Senna’s car is bottoming out; it is sparking like crazy
Peter explains, “ We will never know if indeed Senna had a slow puncture in his tires, meaning did he run over some debris during the four laps when they were going over where the crash was, that was leading to a slow loss of pressure in his tires? Or was it just that his car, the tires didn’t have enough temperature in them? ”
Right behind Senna is Schumacker , and right behind him is Hill They’re not taking the racing line; they’re taking the smoother part of the curve
At the end of the 6th lap, Senna has driven what will be the 2nd or 3rd fastest lap of that race On a full tank of fuel and ice-cold tires That just gives you a sense of how hard he was pushing
When he died they found an Austrian flag in his car He always carried a Brazilian fal in his car, but that day he wanted to wave an Austrian flag for Roland
It’s a very high speed, left-hander
It’s a curve that no longer exists at Imola
It’s deemed too dangerous
There were too many bad accidents there
Senna’s being the final and most deadly
And to be on a bumpy line, when you’re going a 100, and probably 205 miles per hour, you would just choose to go a little slower and drive on a smoother part of the track, even though it’s a longer distance
He’s thinking to himself, “ What in the hell is he doing? Why would you take this risk? ”
Senna’s car is bottoming out; it is sparking like crazy
They’re not taking the racing line; they’re taking the smoother part of the curve
On a full tank of fuel and ice-cold tires
That just gives you a sense of how hard he was pushing
He always carried a Brazilian fal in his car, but that day he wanted to wave an Austrian flag for Roland

“ This is a guy who’s normally possessed to win every race. So you just take that up a notch .”‒ Peter Attia

As they finish lap 6, Senna is pulling out from everybody
They enter lap 7, and as they’re entering Tamburello, he drives straight off the track

[1:02:20] video entering lap 7, entering Tamburello, and Senna drives straight off the track

Senna’s fatal crash as seen from the onboard cameras of Hill and Schumacher, and an overview . Credit: iLOVEtheseVINYLS

What Peter believes caused the crash [1:02:45]

Peter has watched this a hundred thousand times and will tell you what he thinks is happening And what Damon believes is happening Damon’s view is now Peter’s view; it’s also Adrian Newey’s view
Adrian wrote the definitive book on car design: How To Build A Car
When you read the chapter on the FW16, which was the car that Senna died in
Adrian has talked at length about how difficult it was
The Italian courts found him liable for the crash, but by the time they got to that decision,t he statute of limitations had expired for that charge
And what Damon believes is happening
Damon’s view is now Peter’s view; it’s also Adrian Newey’s view

When Senna got to Williams, he hated the car

How it handled
He didn’t like how he fit in the cockpit
All these things he took for granted at McLaren (where he had a car built around him)
He doesn’t like where the wheel fits

So they actually have to extend the steering column by some six inches to put it where he wants it

In doing so, they had to make the steering shaft narrower than what the spec was called for

Adrian writes about what happened in that crash, and Peter has spend hours discussing this with Damon

The best onboard footage is from the car behind him (Schumacher’s)

As Senna entered Tamburello (which is a left-hander), he lost rear grip of the car when it bounced

The way these cars work, they have a huge Venturi effect There’s a perfect amount of air that must be between the floorboard and the ground
And when you bottom out, you momentarily lose all of that aerodynamics
He’s going into Tamburello and because the car is bottoming out, either just because of how bumpy on the line that he is and/or because his tires are cold and/or because he has a small slow leak of air due to running over debris,
There’s a perfect amount of air that must be between the floorboard and the ground

As he is bottoming out, the bottom of the car slides out

Peter admits, “ It’s possible I am convincing myself I can see this on the Schumacher on board, because I now am believing this. But I really believe there’s a split second where you can see the rear move. ”

That is called oversteer

Oversteer is when the rear wheels of a car are moving or turning faster than the front wheels of the car
Oversteer is a phenomenon that a driver will feel long before you see it
You will see oversteer because you’re spinning this way, but you feel it in your butt before that and you can almost hear it in the tires
You hear the loss of traction
So it’s not surprising to Peter that you don’t have to see much oversteer for Senna to have felt it

When a car is oversteering this way, you course correct by countersteering into it

So if the car is oversteering to the left, you countersteer right, and that snaps the back of the car in direction And then you’re backing a little bit off throttle and then you’re coming back to throttle and you’re going
You don’t have to be doing the throttle correction if you catch it quick enough So you could stay full throttle and countersteer back
And then you’re backing a little bit off throttle and then you’re coming back to throttle and you’re going
So you could stay full throttle and countersteer back

Peter believes the car oversteered due to a loss of rear traction, Senna countersteered, and it immediately regained grip and shot him straight off the track

What the telemetry shows is that he went on max brake and hit the wall

The steering column was broken when the car was recovered

The question is, did the steering column break from the collision or did it break beforehand?
It’s very hard to know
But if you look at the lights, if you look at the video of the lights, you can see that he was countersteering before he left the road
Peter has heard very confusing reports: some say that the wheel had no torque in it when he left the track And that would certainly suggest that the steering column was broken
But what you don’t see is you don’t see him turning the wheel
Dax doesn’t think Senna could turn the wheel hard enough to snap Even though it was a smaller diameter than it was supposed to be, the notion of torque breaking through steering a steel rod seems really unique and weird
Peter explains, “ It’s a delicate move when you’re countersteering. It’s not hugely abrupt. But again, if it were the wheel breaking, you would see his hands doing this as he’s going straight off and you do not. ”
Senna hits the wall in the ballpark of 150 mph; he’s in full brake
And that would certainly suggest that the steering column was broken
Even though it was a smaller diameter than it was supposed to be, the notion of torque breaking through steering a steel rod seems really unique and weird

Seeing Tamburello in person

Peter didn’t see Tamburello for the first time in person until 5 years ago
To see the wall that he hit , he was blown away how much closer it was than he would’ve expected

Senna had many times petitioned for the wall of Tamburello to be moved out

But there was a ravine just behind it and they couldn’t move the wall
There was nothing there to absorb a crash, just a concrete wall

As Senna hits the concrete wall, the right front wheel comes off, and it’s actually the suspension rod of that wheel that punctures his helmet

He died a brain death on the track Not a scratch on his body other than head trauma
Sid Watkins was the medical physician of F1 at the time and was part of making F1 safer
Legend has it, the night before the race, Sid told Senna, “ You should just retire. You got nothing left to prove. ” He could tell Senna was distraught after Ratzenberger died
Not a scratch on his body other than head trauma
He could tell Senna was distraught after Ratzenberger died

Views on dying young, in the prime of life [1:13:00]

Dax asks, “ I can tell it’s heartbreaking to you that happened. What is your overall assessment of athletes dying? What is your relationship with that? ”

Dax has a very specific compartmentalized view of all that, and it may seem sociopathic on some level
In Peter’s view, there’s something about James Dean and Marilyn Monroe and JFK that creates a legend status in them Part of it is they died in their prime and they were at the peak We never saw them get old and decline
Dax adds, “ They didn’t have to adjust to a non-exciting life. ”
Part of it is they died in their prime and they were at the peak
We never saw them get old and decline

Senna was truly at this best

Most would say that he peaked in ‘93 Even though he didn’t win the championship in ’93, he was in a very inferior car, he still managed to win 5 races and give us some of the most heroic performances we’ve ever seen (including Donington)
He died at the 3rd race into the ‘94 season
Even though he didn’t win the championship in ’93, he was in a very inferior car, he still managed to win 5 races and give us some of the most heroic performances we’ve ever seen (including Donington)

When you have a person who dies at their prime doing the thing they love, there’s a part of you that says, “There are worse ways to go.”

The measure of life

For many people, the singular measure of life is longevity (duration)
Dax remembers when Paul Walker died, and he thought, “ If you were to have measured somehow the amount of experience he had had on planet Earth in that period, I would argue very, very few people had lived a bigger life or more of a life, or had traveled more and met more people and had more experiences and had more heightened everything .”

Dax would not want is a very boring, subtle existence with no mountains and valleys for 130 years

A lot of people end up living 10X the life of someone who lives to be 110
Dax adds, “ If you presented me with the options, if I live Senna to 34 or I live like some of my neighbors growing up to 105, I would pick Senna. ”
Dax engages in a lot of behaviors that are dangerous and people scratch their head at He feel like this is the only version he wants Obviously a family complicates that
Peter relates, the legend has it that Enzo Ferrari used to keep tabs on his drivers based on different milestones in life, and he would discount their lap times based on that Once a driver had a girlfriend, 2/10ths slower Once he got married, 5/10ths slower Once he had a kid, 1 second slower.
He feel like this is the only version he wants
Obviously a family complicates that
Once a driver had a girlfriend, 2/10ths slower
Once he got married, 5/10ths slower
Once he had a kid, 1 second slower.

It’s just as the stakes get higher, you naturally just can’t be all out anymore

“ Senna lived 10 lives in his 34 years. And not only that, he’s one of the few people who still matters in his death. ”‒ Peter Attia

Senna lives on in his foundation and in safety changes adopted by F1 [1:21:00]

Before he died, Senna had spoken to his older sister about getting more formal with his giving Up until then he had been quietly giving mostly to education Poverty in Brazil was so significant at that time
His sister Viviane created a foundation to do this right [ Instituto Ayrton Senna ]
Up until then he had been quietly giving mostly to education
Poverty in Brazil was so significant at that time

This foundation has probably given over half a billion dollars to education in Brazil, and so in that sense, Senna does live on

“ His death did change the sport forever, in the sense that it changed safety instantaneously. ”‒ Peter Attia

It’s not that he was the first driver to die
You could even argue that there was a comparable death in the 1960s when Jim Clark died He was a world champion He died in a Formula Two race ‒ back then drivers would drive F2 to pay the bills But his death wasn’t seen by the world
By the time Senna died, the sport was much bigger and it completely changed everything, meaning the sport got so serious
It was like Earnhardt dying in NASCAR
He was a world champion
He died in a Formula Two race ‒ back then drivers would drive F2 to pay the bills
But his death wasn’t seen by the world
You got a HANS device immediately
There’s a really eerie interview of Dale Earnhardt the day Senna died, he said a lot of nice things

Statistics aren’t enough for fandom, and why people like who they do [1:24:15]

Why Dax and Peter aren’t drawn to Lewis

It would be incomplete to say it’s all statistics based because it’s not
Peter has a close personal connection to Sebastian Vettel

Peter stopped paying attention to F1 after 1997

In 1997, Jacques Villeneuve won the F1 World Championship
Peter was in medical school and decided to start paying more attention to school than sports
In ‘98 and ‘99 it was won by Hakkinen
The next 5 victories went to Schumacher
Peter shares, “ Deep down, there was a tiny, tiny part of me that didn’t like Schumacher and held him, and this is going to sound ridiculous, partially responsible for Senna’s death. ” He was the one applying the pressure, and he was driving what Peter felt was an illegal car Senna also believed he was outrunning a car that had traction control when his car was undrivable
He was the one applying the pressure, and he was driving what Peter felt was an illegal car
Senna also believed he was outrunning a car that had traction control when his car was undrivable

Tangent on the best F1 cars

The active suspension of Senna’s car in ’93 was probably just as good as the Williams
The reason the Williams car was so dominant was it had the Renault engine that was incredible And the Honda engine in ’93, the Ford Cosworth engine, were nowhere near as good that year
And the Honda engine in ’93, the Ford Cosworth engine, were nowhere near as good that year

Senna, again, he still managed to win 5 races in a season where his car was clearly outclassed

But the point is, everybody could have active [suspension]

It’s just McLaren and Williams had a better active suspension than everybody else
Williams also happened to have the best engine by far; so it was hands down the best car
The detuning of the active was hardest on them to recover

Peter didn’t come back to F1 until Vettel’s years

Vettel won his first title in 2010
He won four in a row

Every time there was a rule change in F1, that created a new dominance

That’s when the dominance shifted from Red Bull to Mercedes before it’s now coming back to Red Bull
Red Bull nailed the engine
By 2021, Max wins, even though Lewis actually has a better car in ’21

What Dax likes about Lewis is something he liked about Senna

This is an outsider
He brings a rock star quality to it
He’s fashionable, he transcends the sport
It’s awesome that there’s a black Formula One … he can’t help but love that

By the time Dax started watching F1, Mercedes was just so dominant

Alonso was someone who came out last year and said this publicly: you have to evaluate these people by did they win first against their teammate or did they win first against another team? For Alonso, it’s more significant if you win against another team
All those years, it was Mercedes was finishing one, two, one, two, one, two
Lewis was complaining last year that Red Bull was so dominant when in fact there’s just reams of data of him qualifying 1.4 seconds ahead, certain times of second place
Max was the underdog
When Dax started watching, it was just very easy: this dude’s won 7 years in a row and he explains, “ I don’t want to see that again. And the car is so significantly better. It’s not even remotely fair. ”
He would come to learn it’s never remotely fair
But at that time, he was shocked
For Alonso, it’s more significant if you win against another team

The biggest difference between F1 today and F1 in the 80s [1:28:30]

In the 80s-mid 90s the balance between driver and car was about 50/50 Meaning it was 50% the car and 50% the driver
That’s unimaginable now
Today it’s probably 75/25, maybe 80/20
In other words, if you put Max into the Williams/ European car today, he wouldn’t win a race
You go back into the 80s, Senna’s in a Toleman that first year and he basically wins Monaco
Schumacher is originally right in the Benetton car, which is not competitive, and he’s podium
you just go back and look at how much Senna was able to do before he got into the McLaren (the perfect car) He was still clobbering it
Meaning it was 50% the car and 50% the driver
He was still clobbering it

Dax explains, “ Another set of variables which I think made the racing back then more fun too, is that reliability was an enormous factor too .”

You could have the best car, but every car is going to DNF two races a season because the reliability just wasn’t there
It was much more unpredictable
People didn’t retire or get fired because of a mechanical failure
Every 3 races, you lost a handful of cars

Senna’s driving superpower [1:30:30]

Senna’s ability to drive in the rain was so magical

Dax knows a few dudes in MotoGP that are that way (Jack Miller)
Angelo Parrilla was the team principal for DAP, which was the premier karting team of the ’70s and ’80s Senna and another guy, Fullerton, were the 2 biggest names in European karting in the late ’70s and early ’80s
Peter remembers Angelo saying that as good as you think Senna was in an F1 car, he was even better in Kart
And so good in the rain that when it was raining, he would usually try to petition the marshals to cancel the race and just give Senna the trophy Of course they would say no Senna would double lap everybody
Peter explains, “ As a really, really lousy driver, it’s hard to put in words how much more difficult it gets in the rain. ”
Dax immediately goes to motorcycles: watching MotoGP in the rain and admitting to myself they’re turning faster lap times at that track than I can on dry is so humbling
When Senna wins his first race in Portugal in ‘85, it is pissing rain his car is hydroplaning when driving down the straights, and other drivers are spinning everywhere He’s driving the John Player Special [shown in the video below]
Senna and another guy, Fullerton, were the 2 biggest names in European karting in the late ’70s and early ’80s
Of course they would say no
Senna would double lap everybody
He’s driving the John Player Special [shown in the video below]

Senna wins in the rain | 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix highlights . Credit: FORMULA 1

Lewis Hamilton is brilliant but he doesn’t fight to win like Senna

Max Verstappen and Sergio Michel “ Checo ” Pérez Mendoza

Dax has defended Max but it was a bummer when he would not help Checo at all
Because Checo fell on his sword in 2021 over and over again to help him beat Lewis
Dax’s take is that for Max, nothing else in the world matters [except winning} He is a cyborg He gets in the car and he’s got to get the very best outcome that’s possible, period
He is a cyborg
He gets in the car and he’s got to get the very best outcome that’s possible, period

It’s like the story of the scorpion and turtle

A scorpion and a turtle are on one side of the river and the scorpion says, “ Hey, can you help me get to the other side of the river? ”
The turtle’s like, “ Are you kidding me? You’re a scorpion. You’re going to kill me .”
Scorpion is like, “ Why would I do that? You’re going to help me to the other side of the river. ” And
Turtle thinks to himself, “ Well, it’s true. He can’t kill me because we’ll both drown .”
Sure enough, the scorpion hops on the turtle’s back
They’re going across the river and halfway across the turtle is like, “ Oh, what the hell is that? ”
He turns and he says, “ You stung me .”
Scorpion says, “ I’m sorry. It’s my nature .”

Max’s singular focus is what Dax loves about him

Many people fought over the last race in the 2021 season

It’s ridiculous, we always unlap cars
People refer to that as the greatest injustice in F1 ‒ it shows how shallow their history is of F1
Dax finds it reminiscent of the Prost-Senna battles where Prost got the call every time It seems that Lewis had gotten every call that year
Peter adds, “ To me, that’s the most interesting season because the better driver beat the better car. That’s the first time you really saw that in a decade .”
It seems that Lewis had gotten every call that year

The fastest drivers currently in F1 [1:38:30]

Dax asks, “ If you had to order, who do you think the fastest drivers are right now? ”

Not taking into consideration their cars
Peter thinks Max is the fastest by quite a bit
Fernando is the second fastest
Peter adds, “ That’s even a difficult question for the following reason, which is different cars have different styles. The Red Bull is really built around Max’s style. ”
The way Max drives, again, this is another reason why Peter thinks Max is so good, is he drives a car that has a couple of features It’s a car that can be driven very fast, but has a very narrow operating window to be driven fast It’s very hard to drive it fast
It’s a testament to how far Checo has come, now that he’s 3 races into this season He deserves credit because a lot of other drivers got spit out
It’s a car that can be driven very fast, but has a very narrow operating window to be driven fast
It’s very hard to drive it fast
He deserves credit because a lot of other drivers got spit out

Current F1 obsessions [1:45:00]

In Peter’s F1 WhatsApp group, the thing that gives that group the most joy is watching how bad Alpine is doing right now That’s the biggest drop in performance he’s seen
It’s confusing shy Alpine would do so poorly They do well in other series
Peter’s wife is obsessed with Pierre
His daughter loves Danny Peter bumped into him and chatted with him last year and he asked how his daughter was doing A year earlier he had met Olivia, taken a picture with her, a nd signed a hat for her It’s freakish that he remembers details
Dax interviewed Danny and they got along really well They set up a hang He loves motocross, so every time he’s in LA, Dax takes him to ride They’ve developed a friendship and it’s been lovely
Dax’s take on Danny, “ He’s a really fucking good dude. Impossibly good dude. ”
That’s the biggest drop in performance he’s seen
They do well in other series
Peter bumped into him and chatted with him last year and he asked how his daughter was doing
A year earlier he had met Olivia, taken a picture with her, a nd signed a hat for her
It’s freakish that he remembers details
They set up a hang
He loves motocross, so every time he’s in LA, Dax takes him to ride
They’ve developed a friendship and it’s been lovely

More F1 drivers are good than not

Dax enjoyed finding out that Max has a persona which is very different from who he actually is

He’s a shy introvert, the sweetest guy
It’s hard to imagine

Dax is obsessed with Jos [Max’s father]

The amount of criminal activity he’s been a part of is impossible, convicted for fracturing a guy’s skull at the go-kart track with his own father
He was momentarily arrested for attempted murder. T-boning an ex-girlfriend in an intersection at full speed and claiming that it was just an accident
The hostility that’s just burbling out, it makes Dax really compassionate to Max That this kid survived this and adores him
That this kid survived this and adores him

How hard it is to do what the top F1 drivers do [1:50:15]

Max’s superpower is he’s so good in a car

Nothing phases him
That’s hard to put in words how big a deal that is in driving

Dax’s love of motorcycles and his AMG E63 station wagon [1:52:15]

Dax tried to get Peter to start riding motorcycles
Dax drove his AMG E63 station wagon on the track at Laguna after being on the track for 2.5 days on his motorcycle He explains, “ That’s a great fucking car. That’s not a boring car to drive on the track. It’s 600 horsepower and dual clutch trans. It’s awesome. ”
He explains, “ That’s a great fucking car. That’s not a boring car to drive on the track. It’s 600 horsepower and dual clutch trans. It’s awesome. ”

But after 3 laps he found it so boring compared to riding a motorcycle

What Peter learned about driving at the Texas Drift Academy

Josh Robinson leads the Drift Academy, he’s a professional Formula driver It’s this awesome school
Peter came across it on an add on YouTube, now he’s a Drift-aholic
It’s this awesome school

The holy grail of drifting is doing tandems

One guy’s drifting in front and the other guy behind him is doing everything
They’re 2 feet off eachother
It might take a year to get to the point where you can do a lead-follow tandem

Seb was doing it within 3 hours

Then the funniest thing Seb goes, “ Is it okay if I give you a pointer? ” Peter’s like, “ Dude, are you kidding me? ” From a 4-time F1 world champion
Seb explained, “ Lay off the throttle a little bit more here and just do this and then counter steer a little bit more this way. ”
The fact that he could figure this out in 3 hours and it’s taken Peter 3 years and he’s still not that good
Peter’s like, “ Dude, are you kidding me? ”
From a 4-time F1 world champion

You also realize there are people that are just so much better

Peter explains, “ It’s actually part of why I enjoy my hobbies is I actually really enjoy being so lousy at these things .” It’s frustrating, but you’re constantly in a state of, the learning curve is still so steep for me
Peter realizes he has too much built-in self-preservation to ever be a good driver
It’s frustrating, but you’re constantly in a state of, the learning curve is still so steep for me

Dax is often does the driving in movies he directs

He did all the driving in Hit and Run The stunt guys threw away 4 cars He was proud that he didn’t’ throw any cars away, he never threw away the Lamborghini
The stunt guys threw away 4 cars
He was proud that he didn’t’ throw any cars away, he never threw away the Lamborghini

Dax wants to do a TV show with Daniel where they go and drive everything

They would race
Snowmobiles are fun and the learning curve is very quick

Awesome Senna mementos from Etsy [2:01:15]

Dax’s wife was perusing Etsy and found these Senna cups He insisted she get them so he could give them to Peter So cool
Then he bought a shirt for himself, but his arms are too long so he decided to pass it on to Peter It’s from the season he died
He insisted she get them so he could give them to Peter
So cool
It’s from the season he died

Names with special meaning

Peter tells the story of how he got his wife to agree to name their son Ayrton
He had a harder time with their previous son whose middle name is Feynman
At the point when they named Ayrton, Jill had only seen the documentary Senna
It’s a very good documentary You should go and see it now You’ll fall very head over heels in love with Senna
Her biggest concern was, will people know how to pronounce his name?
You should go and see it now
You’ll fall very head over heels in love with Senna

Other names with a special meaning

Dax pitched Lincoln for his first daughter after his Lincoln Continental
The name Delta (for his second daughter) came out of a joke
Peter has a friend whose kids are named Lincoln, Kennedy, Reagan, and one other president

What makes specialists interesting, and Max’s devotion to F1 [2:10:15]

President Grant is super fascinating because he’s an abject failure at everything in life except for war and his presidency Terrible with money, insolvent, duped many times But he had a genius and it was just so specific and it was unrivaled It’s such a good book [ Grant ].
Dax thinks he and Peter are similar in, they want to be kind of good at everything
Terrible with money, insolvent, duped many times
But he had a genius and it was just so specific and it was unrivaled
It’s such a good book [ Grant ].

The notions of specialists really interest Dax, because he’s not that way at all

He doubts Max can balance a checkbook or go grocery shopping He’s probably not a great boyfriend, but boy, he can do that thing
Peter points out that Max spends a lot of time in simulators Not many drivers do that Literally after he wins a race in the highest division of the highest sport, when anybody else would be out partying, he’s on a sim race competing against the sim racers around the world He’ll spend 3 hours doing it
Peter doesn’t think think anyone on that grid spends as much time thinking about racing
He’s probably not a great boyfriend, but boy, he can do that thing
Not many drivers do that
Literally after he wins a race in the highest division of the highest sport, when anybody else would be out partying, he’s on a sim race competing against the sim racers around the world He’ll spend 3 hours doing it
He’ll spend 3 hours doing it

Peter would love to know what Max thinks of Senna

Max is only 26 and could race another 10 years and eclipse every record if he chooses to

Max and Alonso are probably the two people Peter thinks will drive forever

Alonso makes Dax think of Valentino Rossi In his last season racing, he was like Alonso He was maybe 44 still racing against these 19-year-old kids He was going through a turn and a guy had crashed just before the turn and came off the bike and the bike was just flying unmanned, and then another guy crashed So 2 bikes, he’s in the turn already committed 1 bike goes right in front of him and 1 goes behind him at the same time It’s the most impossible moment in all of racing motorcycles He’s a foot away from the 1 in front of him and a foot in front of the 1 behind him, both of them flying with a T-bone and would’ve killed him Normal people are asking why he was even there (and not retired) He’d won 9 championships already He’s not competitive Everyone was like, “ Oh my god. He just barely avoided death. ” And for him, he’s like, “ Yeah, this is what I’ll be doing until I’m dead. I’ll be in some situation that scares the shit out of me. ”
In his last season racing, he was like Alonso
He was maybe 44 still racing against these 19-year-old kids
He was going through a turn and a guy had crashed just before the turn and came off the bike and the bike was just flying unmanned, and then another guy crashed So 2 bikes, he’s in the turn already committed 1 bike goes right in front of him and 1 goes behind him at the same time
It’s the most impossible moment in all of racing motorcycles
He’s a foot away from the 1 in front of him and a foot in front of the 1 behind him, both of them flying with a T-bone and would’ve killed him
Normal people are asking why he was even there (and not retired) He’d won 9 championships already He’s not competitive
Everyone was like, “ Oh my god. He just barely avoided death. ” And for him, he’s like, “ Yeah, this is what I’ll be doing until I’m dead. I’ll be in some situation that scares the shit out of me. ”
So 2 bikes, he’s in the turn already committed
1 bike goes right in front of him and 1 goes behind him at the same time
He’d won 9 championships already
He’s not competitive

What Senna might have done if he had not died that day [2:14:00]

Most observers believe he would’ve driven another four years until the next regulation change and at the end of Williams dominance
Williams ended up being the most dominant car the year he died Despite the fact that it was an impossible to drive vehicle for those first 3 races, the brilliance of that team did figure it out
Senna’s his teammate ( Damon Hill ) almost won the championship that year He was, he was 1 point behind Schumacher going into the final race of the year Damon looked like he was going to win the race but his suspension rod broke
Schumacher won the next year, it was close
Damon Hill won the next year in the Williams and Jacques Villeneuve won the next year in the Williams
Peter doesn’t think it’s an enormous stretch to say Senna probably would’ve won 4 consecutive championships in ’94, ’95, ’96, and ’97
There’s talk that he always had a soft spot for Ferrari (like every driver), and would’ve maybe gone to Ferrari
Peter could have seen him retiring
Despite the fact that it was an impossible to drive vehicle for those first 3 races, the brilliance of that team did figure it out
He was, he was 1 point behind Schumacher going into the final race of the year
Damon looked like he was going to win the race but his suspension rod broke

Would he have gone into politics?

Would it have made a difference in the presence of Brazil?
This is a guy that was so loved There’s no example we can point to of someone who turns to politics with that much of the support of a nation
There’s no example we can point to of someone who turns to politics with that much of the support of a nation

Would he have been an ambassador of the sport?

Ad Dax was prepping for this and stumbling upon the pole record, that elevated his assessment of him

“ I will concede that I think it’s very difficult to compare drivers across eras. ”‒ Dax Shepard

If you ask Senna, who was the greatest, he would’ve said it was Fullerton was the greatest guy he ever raced against in karting
If you asked him in F1, he would’ve said Fangio That was his hero
That was his hero

Michael Schumacher and Max Verstappen are also top F1 drivers [2:17:30]

We have to give Schumacher a lot of credit The fact that he goes to Ferrari, which is a shitty team, and just sticks it out and develops that car
Peter ranks Schumacher as second best
But that could be Max Give Max another 5 years, and maybe he’s going to be #2 Maybe one day he will be the greatest of all time
Dax is most excited about seeing Max driving the second fast car once again, because that was the most exciting thing ever, that he had to out drive Lewis and did consistently
The fact that he goes to Ferrari, which is a shitty team, and just sticks it out and develops that car
Give Max another 5 years, and maybe he’s going to be #2
Maybe one day he will be the greatest of all time

“ There’s an artistry to him [Max] that Schumacher doesn’t have. There’s some kind of artistry for sure to Senna that captivates the emotions a lot more. ”‒ Dax Shepard

Interlagos in Sao Paulo Brazil is always an incredible experience [2:18:45]

Peter asks, “ Have you ever been to Sao Paulo? ”

No, Dax has not been to anywhere in South America
Peter invites him to come to Interlagos with him one year
Peter will go to the cemetery where Senna is buried It’s a beautiful cemetery in the middle of Sao Paulo It’s the most unassuming thing, just a plaque in the ground
It’s a beautiful cemetery in the middle of Sao Paulo
It’s the most unassuming thing, just a plaque in the ground

Dax asks, “ Where do you place all his religious stuff? You can’t find audio of him not talking about God at some point. ”

Peter thinks he drew strength from it

“ [Senna] He really believed in his God-given right to win every race .”‒ Peter Attia

For Dax, “ There’s a duality to it. On one hand, it presents as humility. Which is, he’s regularly thanking God for this gift. That’s humble. But then for me as the cynical atheist, I’m like, ‘But you’re also saying God cares more about you than anyone else.’ There is also a deep arrogance to it that, ‘God has picked me to win a race. ’” He has a hard time figuring out if that’s humility to believe in God and you feel chosen by God
Peter points out that Senna did not have a view of immortality It’s amazing how often you hear him talk about mortality (in interviews) He always knew that he was on the limit and his time could come, and he spoke very modestly about that
He has a hard time figuring out if that’s humility to believe in God and you feel chosen by God
It’s amazing how often you hear him talk about mortality (in interviews)
He always knew that he was on the limit and his time could come, and he spoke very modestly about that

Senna died 30 years ago and Peter explains, “ I think another example of feeling old is, I still remember the day he died very clearly. I remember every detail of the room. I remember hearing it on the radio. I remember what my radio looked like. I remember everything. That’s a little odd. ”

Dax Shepard is an actor, comedian, filmmaker, and host of the podcast Armchair Expert . Dax races motorcycles at Buttonwillow Raceway. He is also an avid car enthusiast, and owns the 1967 Lincoln Continental that was featured in the movie Hit and Run .

Instagram: @daxshepard

Podcast: Armchair Expert

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