podcast Peter Attia 2022-05-23 topics

#208 - Tragedy, grief, healing, and finding happiness | Kelsey Chittick

Audio

Show notes

Kelsey Chittick is the author of Second Half: Surviving Loss and Finding Magic in the Missing . In this episode, Kelsey describes her long healing process following the sudden death of her husband, former NFL player Nate Hobgood-Chittick. She describes her life with Nate before and after football, including her premonitions that something was off about Nate and the subsequent finding that he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE). She speaks openly about how she handled his death with her children, the trauma and grief they faced in the aftermath, and how she’s found ways to be happy in her new life. She shares deep insights into her healing process, including her experience with psychedelics and how the concept of “radical acceptance” has helped her to find joy once again.

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We discuss:

Kelsey’s childhood in Florida as an athlete [2:15];
Meeting Nate and early relationship with him [7:45];
Nate’s unbelievable work ethic and desire to play in the NFL [12:30];
Life with a professional football player, playing through pain, and head injuries related to football [17:00];
Nate’s final days of football and early retirement struggles [23:30];
The tough transition from the NFL to a “regular life” and how Nate found a way to serve others [28:45];
Nate’s struggle with his weight and overall health after retirement [34:45];
Kelsey’s anxiety and premonitions of Nate’s impending death, and Nate’s changing demeanor [37:30];
The traumatic experience of learning of Nate’s death during her own spiritual journey to Jamaica [45:30];
Breaking the news to her children of their father’s death [51:00];
The darkest days following Nate’s passing and how her children were handling grief [55:30];
A new relationship with death, finding happiness, and the duality of feelings [1:02:45];
Nate’s autopsy results showing evidence of CTE [1:07:00];
The grieving process [1:15:00];
Dealing with grief with kids and how children grieve differently [1:19:15];
Healing through her first psychedelic experience [1:23:00];
The therapeutic potential of psychedelics, meditation, and more [1:33:45];
The concept of “radical acceptance” and the peace that comes with it [1:42:30];
The up-and-down experience of writing her book [1:47:45];
More.

Show Notes

*Notes from intro:

Kelsey Chittick is a writer, comedian, and inspirational speaker
She’s the author of Second Half: Surviving Loss and Finding Magic in the Missing A book about the death of her husband, former NFL player, Nate Hobgood-Chittick , who passed away suddenly at the age of 42 in front of their young children
She’s also the co-creator of KeepOn , a podcast that explores how the greatest obstacles can turn out to be the greatest gifts
Peter wanted to talk with Kelsey after his wife read her book Full disclosure, his wife and Kelsey are friends He saw his wife reading and crying through this book This got him very interested in it and ultimately led to him wanting to sit down with Kelsey
In this episode, we talk about Kelsey’s background and that of her late husband, Nate How they met, growing up, going to college together, being athletes
We talk about Nate’s experience with football How hard football is on the player’s bodies Nate’s experiences post football
We speak about Nate’s passing And in the aftermath, finding out that Nate suffered from CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy) How Kelsey handled his death with her children The trauma and grief they faced in the immediate aftermath and even today
We talk about how Kelsey was able to grieve while still finding ways to be happy and able to live her life post Nate
We end the discussion around Kelsey’s experiences with psychedelics This played a really important role in her recovery How it fit into this idea of radical acceptance Anybody who’s done DBT (Dialectical behavior therapy) or done this type of work will be familiar with that terminology
A book about the death of her husband, former NFL player, Nate Hobgood-Chittick , who passed away suddenly at the age of 42 in front of their young children
Full disclosure, his wife and Kelsey are friends
He saw his wife reading and crying through this book This got him very interested in it and ultimately led to him wanting to sit down with Kelsey
This got him very interested in it and ultimately led to him wanting to sit down with Kelsey
How they met, growing up, going to college together, being athletes
How hard football is on the player’s bodies
Nate’s experiences post football
And in the aftermath, finding out that Nate suffered from CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy)
How Kelsey handled his death with her children The trauma and grief they faced in the immediate aftermath and even today
The trauma and grief they faced in the immediate aftermath and even today
This played a really important role in her recovery
How it fit into this idea of radical acceptance Anybody who’s done DBT (Dialectical behavior therapy) or done this type of work will be familiar with that terminology
Anybody who’s done DBT (Dialectical behavior therapy) or done this type of work will be familiar with that terminology

Kelsey’s childhood in Florida as an athlete [2:15]

Growing up in Florida

Kelsey grew up in Winter Park, Florida
She began swimming at age 4 and racing at age 6
Collegiate sports were not on the radar when she was a kid, as they are now
She lived in Florida and wanted to be outside; she and her friends loved swimming
She didn’t think about college sports until maybe 9th grade when she won She got 2nd at state In her sophomore year, she won state in 100 back and 100 fly She was terrible at breaststroke
In high school she didn’t know about recruiting; it wasn’t huge to get a scholarship Especially for female athletes
In her junior year her coach told her that she could get a scholarship
Her family wasn’t into sports Everybody did their own thing Not like now with parents driving their kids to special coaches and meets, etc.
Kelsey remembers going to a basketball game with one of her girlfriends whose dad had gone to UNC , maybe this was my junior year Long story short, but her friend’s brother dated the swim coach’s daughter The basketball game was huge in Chapel Hill; UNC might have been playing Duke Carolina game Someone at the game remarked that UNC (Carolina) was impossible to get in out of state Kelsey decided to try to get in She met the swim coach and he said, “ Call me when you’re at the end of your junior year ”
She doesn’t think she got into UNC at first They had already given a scholarship to a girl from Ohio
Kelsey got an offer for Miami and FSU Florida She wanted to get out of Florida so badly Everybody she knew was going there She wanted to have a new experience
She waited on accepting offers from Florida and that spring the girl decided to go somewhere else, so she got into UNC
Kelsey turned down in-state scholarships She didn’t want to swim against all the same people she grew up with She was excited to have a new experience at UNC Chapel Hill
She spent the 1st 2 years at UNC with just a tuition scholarship (her parents paid room and board) Once she made NC2A’s (NCAA) , she got a full scholarship
She swam 100 back, 200 back, 100 fly She didn’t want to swim the 200 fly
Peter likes long distance swimming When he swam in the pool, the only thing he could swim is breaststroke He’s a pretty bad at freestyle despite the fact that he can swim it for a long period of time (but not fast)
Kelsey graduated from high school in ’95 and Chapel Hill in ’99
She got 2nd at state
In her sophomore year, she won state in 100 back and 100 fly
She was terrible at breaststroke
Especially for female athletes
Everybody did their own thing
Not like now with parents driving their kids to special coaches and meets, etc.
Long story short, but her friend’s brother dated the swim coach’s daughter
The basketball game was huge in Chapel Hill; UNC might have been playing Duke Carolina game
Someone at the game remarked that UNC (Carolina) was impossible to get in out of state Kelsey decided to try to get in She met the swim coach and he said, “ Call me when you’re at the end of your junior year ”
Kelsey decided to try to get in
She met the swim coach and he said, “ Call me when you’re at the end of your junior year ”
They had already given a scholarship to a girl from Ohio
She wanted to get out of Florida so badly Everybody she knew was going there She wanted to have a new experience
Everybody she knew was going there
She wanted to have a new experience
She didn’t want to swim against all the same people she grew up with
She was excited to have a new experience at UNC Chapel Hill
Once she made NC2A’s (NCAA) , she got a full scholarship
She didn’t want to swim the 200 fly
When he swam in the pool, the only thing he could swim is breaststroke
He’s a pretty bad at freestyle despite the fact that he can swim it for a long period of time (but not fast)

Meeting Nate and early relationship with him [7:45]

She met Nate in 1998, the summer before starting her junior year She had just finished her sophomore year swimming She was a hot mess; she’d gained a ton of weight She ate cream cheese and croissant sandwiches because they had training table She had nights out Her face and body were not primed for winning anything She started dating a guy who had a weed problem and was running with a crowd that wasn’t conducive to being excellent This guy was on the swim team At Carolina at the time you couldn’t rush a sorority or fraternity if you were on a swim athletic team; the team was your group She dated this guy for a while before she met Nate
She didn’t love swim as much as she did in high school She didn’t love that her scholarship depended on it and that all her friends did the same thing In high school she had 12 girlfriends but everybody was different; she was the swimmer Once she got to Chapel Hill, they were all fighting for NCAA or a spot on the relay It was a different experience
She met Nate at a bar; he was going into his 5th year, senior year She remembers he was an absolutely enormous man with more confidence than you’ve ever seen in your life He had more swagger for a huge fat guy; it was unbelievable That night and he gave her this napkin that said, “ If you want the best, say goodbye to the rest. Go home with me and I’ll make you happy .” She met him that night but they didn’t really see each other for a while
It turned out one of her roommates was dating a guy on the offensive line named Ryan and so a couple months later they had a house party where we watched X-Files , everybody partied and got drunk and danced, and Nate was there At some point that night, the guy she was dating called and Nate just walked over and took the phone and was like, “ She’s with me now .” And that was it
From the minute she met him, she knew there was something
He was from nothing; a poor kid from Allentown; a guy that hustled
Her father was a lawyer and her mom was very politically active She grew up in a country club life Her town was very Southern and Christian
When she met Nate, he was so different; he was connected When he would sit and listen to her, she felt like she was the most important person in the world He did that with everybody
She had just finished her sophomore year swimming
She was a hot mess; she’d gained a ton of weight She ate cream cheese and croissant sandwiches because they had training table She had nights out Her face and body were not primed for winning anything
She started dating a guy who had a weed problem and was running with a crowd that wasn’t conducive to being excellent This guy was on the swim team At Carolina at the time you couldn’t rush a sorority or fraternity if you were on a swim athletic team; the team was your group She dated this guy for a while before she met Nate
She ate cream cheese and croissant sandwiches because they had training table
She had nights out
Her face and body were not primed for winning anything
This guy was on the swim team
At Carolina at the time you couldn’t rush a sorority or fraternity if you were on a swim athletic team; the team was your group
She dated this guy for a while before she met Nate
She didn’t love that her scholarship depended on it and that all her friends did the same thing
In high school she had 12 girlfriends but everybody was different; she was the swimmer
Once she got to Chapel Hill, they were all fighting for NCAA or a spot on the relay It was a different experience
It was a different experience
She remembers he was an absolutely enormous man with more confidence than you’ve ever seen in your life
He had more swagger for a huge fat guy; it was unbelievable
That night and he gave her this napkin that said, “ If you want the best, say goodbye to the rest. Go home with me and I’ll make you happy .”
She met him that night but they didn’t really see each other for a while
At some point that night, the guy she was dating called and Nate just walked over and took the phone and was like, “ She’s with me now .” And that was it
She grew up in a country club life
Her town was very Southern and Christian
When he would sit and listen to her, she felt like she was the most important person in the world He did that with everybody
He did that with everybody

“ There was a way when he walked into a room that you could tell everybody loved him and he loved them ”— Kelsey Chittick

She knew that first night something was different about him
The night they started dating, there was just a joy to Nate that was different
He had an extreme way of living Which was concerning then and throughout her entire life with him
He was here for the moment
He was here to have a good time and feel it all, experience it all
He was the most loving human being you’ll ever meet
She couldn’t understand how she was attracted to him because it didn’t match anything that she had imagined
When they started talking, the things he was talking about were the same thing as her What do you want to do with your life? Who do you want to be? What books have you read? What type of spiritual practices do you have?
They were 19 and 22
She remembers he was on this deep search for meaning and purpose How do we serve? How do we get the most out of this life?
They both started on a spiritual journey at a very young age That’s what she always loved about him
She married a really fat, 300 pound, amazing defensive tackle in 2002
They got engaged at the World Trade Center in July 2001, at the top of the tower A couple months before 9/11
He played for the Giants ; they lived in NY for a while
Which was concerning then and throughout her entire life with him
What do you want to do with your life?
Who do you want to be?
What books have you read?
What type of spiritual practices do you have?
How do we serve?
How do we get the most out of this life?
That’s what she always loved about him
A couple months before 9/11

Nate’s unbelievable work ethic and desire to play in the NFL [12:30]

What did Kelsey think about Nate’s chances at playing in the NFL?

Peter notes, “ Nate was not the guy who was going to get drafted in the first round .”
She can hear Nate laughing when she said, “ You’ll never make it ” He always replied, “ If I can just get a shot, I’ll just work my way .”
He almost lost his scholarship in college; he wasn’t a starter He was 4th on the depth chart
But they were young and she still had a year and a half of school
He had a really fast 40; he had a good combine Carolina had a great year He was back-up to some guys who were going first and second round
Their families (on both sides) weren’t into football
The day of the draft, she didn’t understand it
Nate thought, “ If I could just get a chance on a practice squad then I could make it. And then we could save a little bit of money and then we could maybe buy a house someday .”
When he got called by the Giants to be on the practice squad everybody was shocked
He always replied, “ If I can just get a shot, I’ll just work my way .”
He was 4th on the depth chart
Carolina had a great year
He was back-up to some guys who were going first and second round

“ There was nobody that made the good guys try harder than a guy like Nate, because he would just literally go until he couldn’t ”— Kelsey Chittick

She was young then, and she was never that invested in his career She just wanted him to make some money, get out safe, then they could start their real life
She just wanted him to make some money, get out safe, then they could start their real life

Jeff Saturday

Peter asked if she knew Jeff Saturday when he and Nate were roommates Jeff went on to become one of the greatest centers of the game To think that he got overlooked…
Yes, Jeff is still one of her best friends (and his wife)
Jeff and Nate lived together from freshman year
Jeff tells this great story about when he first met Nate He went to introduce himself but Nate was sobbing, hugging his parents He thought, “ Wait, I’m going to be rooming with this crybaby, what’s happening? ”
Jeff was from Georgia; grew up in a rough life, very tough
He and Nate ended up being best friends They played together along with Chris Kaldor who was up for the Heisman , there was a group of them
When they were waiting for the draft, Chris had been the quarterback and Jeff was the center, and they were certain they were going to go Fourth round, fifth round, and they all just sat there waiting for the phone to ring And nobody called The only person that got called was Nate
So Nate went on to the Giants and got on the practice squad, and barely made it through that first cut
Then he got released by the Giants and the Colts picked him up right away
Nate moved to Indianapolis
At that time, Jeff got a shot at Baltimore on a practice squad but didn’t make it So he came back to North Carolina, started working at a PepBoys
They didn’t think he had a shot; it was over, he was too short Nate used to always tell him that he has short arms; he’d never make it as a center Nate just always went up against him in practice for four years He always said, “ He’s the best fucking guy I’ve ever played against .”
Nate was still barely making the Colts, You only get paid week by week if you make the team and if you play At one point when Nate had a really tough practice, he realized the guys he played against weren’t even close to Jeff’s ability So he walked into Polian’s office in dirty sweats Polian doesn’t even know who he is He is just like a guy trying to make the team.
And he said “T here’s a guy in Raleigh, North Carolina, that’s working in an auto parts store right now. His name’s Jeff Saturday. And he could kick all those guys asses that I just played .” The coach said, “ Well, if you want him to come live with you I’ll give him a shot .” And then that was it 6 pro bowls later; he would go on to become a hall of famer
Jeff went on to become one of the greatest centers of the game
To think that he got overlooked…
He went to introduce himself but Nate was sobbing, hugging his parents
He thought, “ Wait, I’m going to be rooming with this crybaby, what’s happening? ”
They played together along with Chris Kaldor who was up for the Heisman , there was a group of them
Fourth round, fifth round, and they all just sat there waiting for the phone to ring
And nobody called
The only person that got called was Nate
So he came back to North Carolina, started working at a PepBoys
Nate used to always tell him that he has short arms; he’d never make it as a center
Nate just always went up against him in practice for four years He always said, “ He’s the best fucking guy I’ve ever played against .”
He always said, “ He’s the best fucking guy I’ve ever played against .”
You only get paid week by week if you make the team and if you play
At one point when Nate had a really tough practice, he realized the guys he played against weren’t even close to Jeff’s ability
So he walked into Polian’s office in dirty sweats Polian doesn’t even know who he is He is just like a guy trying to make the team.
Polian doesn’t even know who he is
He is just like a guy trying to make the team.
The coach said, “ Well, if you want him to come live with you I’ll give him a shot .” And then that was it 6 pro bowls later; he would go on to become a hall of famer
6 pro bowls later; he would go on to become a hall of famer

Life with a professional football player, playing through pain, and head injuries related to football [17:00]

Figure 1. Nate on the St. Louis Rams. [ source ]

In ‘99 Kelsey and Nate were at the Rams , in St. Louis. Did Kelsey think it was going to happen?

Peter remembers this year because of Kurt Warner This was the beginning of that playoff run
It was really fun; they were winning She was in college and would fly to see him
Kurt was an exceptional leader, spiritually, emotionally, everything
The team just had a bunch of really good guys on it and it was fun to be a part of that team
This was the beginning of that playoff run
She was in college and would fly to see him

“ I’ve always felt like the energy matters the most ”— Kelsey Chittick

The energy on this team was good
Every time they won, they knew it may never come again
They had Dick Vermeil as a coach He’s still one of the greatest humans to her He continues to come to her house twice a year to see the kids and just have dinner with them He was an exceptional advocate for his players as human beings, way past their football He was the one that gave Nate a shot multiple times just because of his character He said “ He’s not that good but he really makes the other good guys better .”
St. Louis was on fire
At the last playoff game, in the last second she remembers thinking, “ Whatever you do don’t put Nate in. Please don’t put him in .” Nate was very offended when she told him this She didn’t want him to be that guy, if they lost the game But they tackled the guy before he got in the end zone and the Rams won and it was just exceptional
It was fun; they danced and had a great time.
They never took any of it for granted; they loved all of it
Even though Nate was in a ton of pain, always
He’s still one of the greatest humans to her
He continues to come to her house twice a year to see the kids and just have dinner with them
He was an exceptional advocate for his players as human beings, way past their football
He was the one that gave Nate a shot multiple times just because of his character He said “ He’s not that good but he really makes the other good guys better .”
He said “ He’s not that good but he really makes the other good guys better .”
Nate was very offended when she told him this
She didn’t want him to be that guy, if they lost the game
But they tackled the guy before he got in the end zone and the Rams won and it was just exceptional

Nate worked hard through the pain

Peter comments on how early in his career he was in pain He was 22 and trying to get into the NFL and already dealing with this type of discomfort
Nate was banged up, because when you play on the line that’s a whole nother ball game When you are not a starter that gets to take breaks
He was 22 and trying to get into the NFL and already dealing with this type of discomfort
When you are not a starter that gets to take breaks

“ So Nate was the workhorse and so he took so many hits ”— Kelsey Chittick

He was not skinny when he got to college He was a basketball player in high school In order to play his football position at UNC, he had to gain a ton of weight
He weighed maybe 300 lbs when they got married (compared to 200 lbs when he got to UNC) To move that amount of weight around that fast and that often took a toll pretty early His neck was a 21, could that be right? It was enormous
The first night she slept with him, not literally, but she remembers thinking that his snoring wouldn’t work
At age 22, when he got into the Giants, within a couple weeks they gave him a sleep apnea mask It is awful to look at but it has this wonderful white noise sound, your husband doesn’t snore, and it helps him sleep
Early on she thought he was too big to do what he was doing without paying a price quite often
He wasn’t a complainer; he always knew he chose this But she could tell he spent a lot of time just managing where to put the pain And just accepting this is what it takes to get them where we want to be Which was to same some money to go and start a life, to serve people or whatever
He was a basketball player in high school
In order to play his football position at UNC, he had to gain a ton of weight
To move that amount of weight around that fast and that often took a toll pretty early
His neck was a 21, could that be right? It was enormous
It is awful to look at but it has this wonderful white noise sound, your husband doesn’t snore, and it helps him sleep
But she could tell he spent a lot of time just managing where to put the pain
And just accepting this is what it takes to get them where we want to be Which was to same some money to go and start a life, to serve people or whatever
Which was to same some money to go and start a life, to serve people or whatever

What did she think then, not having the perspective she does now

Did she imagine what he would be like at 50 as a result of the injuries he already had?
Nate was always into health, always learning about his body He took great care of himself and had great people like Mike Clark that were doing good things He was aware of what he put into his body He did ice baths and all that stuff But he loved wings and beer and partying
She thought when he was done with football, he would lose the weight He’d become hot and skinny and they’d live a happy life She never thought he would stay so big She thinks being big is something these guys love about themselves; they don’t actually want to get that much smaller She thinks Nate secretly loved being big because when he would lose weight and go down to 235 lbs he didn’t love himself as he did when he was 260 As the years went by, they would fight about when he was going to start losing weight and watch what he was eating
He took great care of himself and had great people like Mike Clark that were doing good things
He was aware of what he put into his body
He did ice baths and all that stuff
But he loved wings and beer and partying
He’d become hot and skinny and they’d live a happy life
She never thought he would stay so big She thinks being big is something these guys love about themselves; they don’t actually want to get that much smaller She thinks Nate secretly loved being big because when he would lose weight and go down to 235 lbs he didn’t love himself as he did when he was 260
As the years went by, they would fight about when he was going to start losing weight and watch what he was eating
She thinks being big is something these guys love about themselves; they don’t actually want to get that much smaller
She thinks Nate secretly loved being big because when he would lose weight and go down to 235 lbs he didn’t love himself as he did when he was 260

Nate’s final days of football and early retirement struggles [23:30]

Was it a happy day when Nate retired?

They got married in ‘02 and Nate retired right before their son was born in ‘04
She had mixed feelings He didn’t have a job or a lot of life skills Email had just started and Nate was not great with technology
He didn’t have a job or a lot of life skills
Email had just started and Nate was not great with technology

“ He lived in a world way up in the sky. He lived in big dreams and big hopes. ”— Kelsey Chittick

She was like, “ We have a baby on the way, and what are you going to do for a living? ”
She was a pharmaceutical sales rep Not her ideal job but a great job to have coming out of college
A lot of guys transitioning out of football have only played for 3-5 years They’re dropped into a world where their friends from college have been working for 5-6 years Now they are starting at an entry-level job with a salary of $40,000 a year They used to make this in a week It’s a huge transition
Peter remarks on the median experience for a professional football player The mean gets dragged up by guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers Guys with remarkable longevity and skill, who make a ton of money But a guy in the middle, 50th percentile, might be in the league for 3 years and made a million or 2 before paying taxes and agents
The other thing to consider, what did this do to his life expectancy How many years did he pay for that? From this perspective, football is the worst Boxing would be another example It’s easy to see the guys at the top of that, but the pyramid those guys stand on is a wide base And those guys at the base are getting crushed
Kelsey continues to have a duel experience around football It’s a great unifier and community builder that brings people together It brings people joy and opportunity There’s a whole other side that we don’t see often The guys that played for 3 years are still beat up or don’t have any money These guys have a hard time transitioning
Watching the playoff games is so fun It makes you love football But she would never let her kid play
Not her ideal job but a great job to have coming out of college
They’re dropped into a world where their friends from college have been working for 5-6 years
Now they are starting at an entry-level job with a salary of $40,000 a year They used to make this in a week
It’s a huge transition
They used to make this in a week
The mean gets dragged up by guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers Guys with remarkable longevity and skill, who make a ton of money
But a guy in the middle, 50th percentile, might be in the league for 3 years and made a million or 2 before paying taxes and agents
Guys with remarkable longevity and skill, who make a ton of money
How many years did he pay for that?
From this perspective, football is the worst
Boxing would be another example
It’s easy to see the guys at the top of that, but the pyramid those guys stand on is a wide base And those guys at the base are getting crushed
And those guys at the base are getting crushed
It’s a great unifier and community builder that brings people together It brings people joy and opportunity
There’s a whole other side that we don’t see often The guys that played for 3 years are still beat up or don’t have any money These guys have a hard time transitioning
It brings people joy and opportunity
The guys that played for 3 years are still beat up or don’t have any money
These guys have a hard time transitioning
It makes you love football
But she would never let her kid play

Kelsey’s outlook on life after football [26:15]

She used to think she had all the answers about certain things She had strong opinions
Now she’s more conflicted about a lot of things Maybe that’s a good thing
She’s conflicted about football
Nate’s not here but she would love to hear his perspective on this His buddies view this as benign the king of what everybody wants to do, an opportunity that kids dream of But there is a price and ESPN doesn’t show what these guys are doing 10 years later
Where are these people that were so amazing 3 years ago or 5 years ago? What do they do now? Where do they live? What does their crib look like today? How are they financially? How’s their relationship with their children, with their kids?
She’s been surrounded by guys like Tony Gonzalez and Jeff Saturday who are exceptional men, husbands, friends But she knows that is not always the case The book has brought out very strong opinions on both sides
She had strong opinions
Maybe that’s a good thing
His buddies view this as benign the king of what everybody wants to do, an opportunity that kids dream of
But there is a price and ESPN doesn’t show what these guys are doing 10 years later
What do they do now?
Where do they live?
What does their crib look like today?
How are they financially?
How’s their relationship with their children, with their kids?
But she knows that is not always the case
The book has brought out very strong opinions on both sides

What city were you guys living in when Nate retired?

He got released by Kansas City; we went out to visit a friend that lived in Manhattan Beach, California
They were there when he got picked by up by (she doesn’t quite remember) the Rams again Vermeil always grabbed him again when he could; he’s a good man
He played another year and a half
His last team was the Cardinals They gave him a shot, but he was done
He was emotionally done
You have to really want it
He was really tired of sitting in meetings There’s a lot of film and watching Nate was like, “ After a while this cannot be my life. Can’t just be watching run X and O’s ” He had big dreams to change the world
Vermeil always grabbed him again when he could; he’s a good man
They gave him a shot, but he was done
There’s a lot of film and watching
Nate was like, “ After a while this cannot be my life. Can’t just be watching run X and O’s ” He had big dreams to change the world
He had big dreams to change the world

The tough transition from the NFL to a “regular life” and how Nate found a way to serve others [28:45]

Figure 2. Family photo. [ source ]

Once he got cut, they moved back and moved to El Segundo
She got pregnant pretty quickly after that
He went back to school and got his masters in social work

Did it surprise you that that was the chosen path?

His dad was a minister at Harvard and his mom was a professor at Holy Cross
He comes from an academic, service-oriented family
Some kids are told to be bankers; he was told to serve That was pretty much in his soul And he didn’t have a ton of skill sets
He studied communications in college; Kelsey notes “ like we all did ” This reminds Peter of a funny story; he’s not going to name names A few years ago, he was helping out a buddy who wanted me to come and do some work with the kids who were going to be probably the top 10 picks out of college They all went in the first 2 rounds, including Heisman trophy winner So, there’s 10 of us there, the guy who brings Peter in to help, Peter, and then there’s these 10 kids Some of these kids are playing right now and are the best in the NFL So, the guy who had Peter come and talk to them, he’s like, “ Hey look, we did some blood work on them, we want to talk about nutrition, we want to talk about what can they do to optimize their performance ” So, he brings me to a beautiful conference room in Petco Park in San Diego Peter begins by trying to explain some of the biochemistry, but he’s not going all in on this He’s just asking, “ you know glucose?” The guy who won the Heisman, was like, “ I don’t understand any of this ” And one of the other guys, who was probably the single most successful one that came out of that class, he’s like, “ Dude, did you not take biology? Well, I took it .”
Kelsey notes this class was 25 years ago; it was different back then She managed a lot of Nate’s life then
That was pretty much in his soul
And he didn’t have a ton of skill sets
This reminds Peter of a funny story; he’s not going to name names
A few years ago, he was helping out a buddy who wanted me to come and do some work with the kids who were going to be probably the top 10 picks out of college They all went in the first 2 rounds, including Heisman trophy winner So, there’s 10 of us there, the guy who brings Peter in to help, Peter, and then there’s these 10 kids Some of these kids are playing right now and are the best in the NFL
So, the guy who had Peter come and talk to them, he’s like, “ Hey look, we did some blood work on them, we want to talk about nutrition, we want to talk about what can they do to optimize their performance ”
So, he brings me to a beautiful conference room in Petco Park in San Diego
Peter begins by trying to explain some of the biochemistry, but he’s not going all in on this He’s just asking, “ you know glucose?”
The guy who won the Heisman, was like, “ I don’t understand any of this ” And one of the other guys, who was probably the single most successful one that came out of that class, he’s like, “ Dude, did you not take biology? Well, I took it .”
They all went in the first 2 rounds, including Heisman trophy winner
So, there’s 10 of us there, the guy who brings Peter in to help, Peter, and then there’s these 10 kids
Some of these kids are playing right now and are the best in the NFL
He’s just asking, “ you know glucose?”
And one of the other guys, who was probably the single most successful one that came out of that class, he’s like, “ Dude, did you not take biology? Well, I took it .”
She managed a lot of Nate’s life then

“ In a marriage they say someone’s the balloon and someone’s the rock, he was like the biggest, Goodyear Blimp on the planet earth. And I was the most uptight, neurotic, best rock you could, I mean, there was no fun, no joy, no nothing ”— Kelsey Chittick

They had a lot of tutors in college; they needed a lot of help

The transition from professional football player to a normal life, with a normal job is difficult

She can remember worrying about Nate getting a job, that it would be a disaster
Your ego has to adjust to being nothing From signing autographs as a super bowl champion, to being an assistant to whatever you get when you’re 24, 25
School seemed like the best way to slowly modulate back to a normal life To learn to be responsible and have due dates and deadlines
He had a dream to help people, but he had no idea what it meant to be a social worker or how much you made,
She remembers when he finished, graduated valedictorian This was exceptional because he barely got out of Chapel Hill.
He went to an interview and he’s like, “ they said this is $50,000 for the year… that is slavery .” She was like, “ wrong word ”
He couldn’t believe that everytime he wanted to take a vacation he would have to ask somebody with a sheet and put the dates down And it’s only for 10 days He couldn’t believe it; he was floored She was like, “ welcome to the real world ” In football they had a good 4 months off to do whatever
He was pretty depressed during that period of their lives
She remembers early on asking, “ I need to know, can you do this? Are we going to make this? ” They had a son now
This transition was a problem for most football players 70% of guys broke-up and divorced after they finished football
The average years guys play is 3; they’re in their mid 20’s when they leave football
From signing autographs as a super bowl champion, to being an assistant to whatever you get when you’re 24, 25
To learn to be responsible and have due dates and deadlines
This was exceptional because he barely got out of Chapel Hill.
She was like, “ wrong word ”
And it’s only for 10 days
He couldn’t believe it; he was floored
She was like, “ welcome to the real world ”
In football they had a good 4 months off to do whatever
They had a son now
70% of guys broke-up and divorced after they finished football

“ So, there’s a lot of people that are literally falling off a cliff after they do professional football ”— Kelsey Chittick

These guys go home and they work at a bar in their high school town because they want to feel good again
Kelsey and Nate were just determined to find a new way But it was bumpy He was sad And Nate was always very aware; she doesn’t know if he had anxiety but he had depression She knows he didn’t want to feel bad, and he hated that he did, and he didn’t know why He worked really hard He was well read and he would try everything
After a while, once he kind of started to find some purpose in social work, it got better
But then at a certain point he’s like, “ I can’t live on the salary. ”
And like every good athlete does, he decided to go into financial advising, because there’s nobody you want to manage your money more than a football player
He felt that he’d seen so many guys lose a bunch of money to the wrong people So he loved finance, investments, gambling in the stock market
He moved into that at Morgan Stanley and loved it
He ended up starting helping guys that were in unions, like just blue collar line workers and Verizon guys that needed help with the money that they’d saved
He felt like he got the Allentown and the finance stuff and was able to serve That ended up being his career that he took on for the rest of his life
But it was bumpy
He was sad
And Nate was always very aware; she doesn’t know if he had anxiety but he had depression She knows he didn’t want to feel bad, and he hated that he did, and he didn’t know why
He worked really hard He was well read and he would try everything
She knows he didn’t want to feel bad, and he hated that he did, and he didn’t know why
He was well read and he would try everything
So he loved finance, investments, gambling in the stock market
That ended up being his career that he took on for the rest of his life

Nate’s struggle with his weight and overall health after retirement [34:45]

Kelsey recalls, “ I rode that man so hard for his whole life. He could take more beatings from me verbally and from coaches and teams .”
She was tough on him
He wanted to be better He would have times when he really got in shape He was the guy in their neighborhood who everybody listened to, health wise He had all the information He would be sober in January, February And then the sun would come out again; things would get a little dicey in March and April By summer he was full bore, having a ball; and once the Yankees started, the wheels were off They would cycle through this
He would have times when he really got in shape
He was the guy in their neighborhood who everybody listened to, health wise He had all the information
He would be sober in January, February
And then the sun would come out again; things would get a little dicey in March and April
By summer he was full bore, having a ball; and once the Yankees started, the wheels were off
They would cycle through this
He had all the information

Did he ever go visit a doctor during this period of time?

The NFL has a program where you go once a year She doesn’t know the details, but they sign something where to say, you’ll never sue them, and they provide care In this program they took a lump sum of money for the promise of never to sue them In their program, guys are checked mentally and physically, once a year
Kelsey recently found his records from his last year Everything was fine except for this one page that was so not fine This was his heart, his cholesterol, and his weight They didn’t really talk about this
If she could go back, she would take a different tactic She was so sacred It didn’t’ feel safe for him to tell her the truth so he put it aside and thought he would take care of it
She always wanted him to be skinner
His mom always asked him to lose weight
This was really hard for him
He always worked out; he was very physical and athletic
Peter notes that people think a defensive lineman or defensive tackle is so big that they can’t be fast But they are so fast
She doesn’t know the details, but they sign something where to say, you’ll never sue them, and they provide care
In this program they took a lump sum of money for the promise of never to sue them
In their program, guys are checked mentally and physically, once a year
Everything was fine except for this one page that was so not fine This was his heart, his cholesterol, and his weight
They didn’t really talk about this
This was his heart, his cholesterol, and his weight
She was so sacred
It didn’t’ feel safe for him to tell her the truth so he put it aside and thought he would take care of it
But they are so fast

“ He was the strongest man I’ve ever seen. And he had a work ethic. He could go forever. He could also rest forever too. He was extreme in every way, good and bad .”— Kelsey Chittick

Their daughter was born in 2008

Kelsey’s anxiety and premonitions of Nate’s impending death, and Nate’s changing demeanor [37:30]

Fast forward to November 2017 and Kelsey’s premonitions that something wasn’t right

Peter asks how much of this can she only appreciate in a retrospective scope versus what she thought at the time

Did she think something was wrong with her, that she was losing it?
Her friends will say she was very vocal that something was wrong
She was anxious
Kelsey would say, “ I don’t know what’s wrong. Something’s not right .” She was scared and nervous
At the time she was working in Chapel Hill, in medical recruiting She had a team of guys she had gone to college with that played football
Starting in 2012, she would go back every month because her team was there She’d be gone 3-4 days
But around 2014-2015 she started dreading leaving the family This made no sense The kids were a great age Nate was doing great But her anxiety was through the roof; she would wake up sweating
She doesn’t know woo woo-woo spiritual she can get here, but she felt like something was coming She didn’t know what it was There was something about Nate that was floating away and she was trying to get to him
She was scared and nervous
She had a team of guys she had gone to college with that played football
She’d be gone 3-4 days
This made no sense
The kids were a great age
Nate was doing great
But her anxiety was through the roof; she would wake up sweating
She didn’t know what it was
There was something about Nate that was floating away and she was trying to get to him

Was she an anxious person by nature?

Growing up, she didn’t think she anxious, but she needed to swim 6 hours a day; so it’s hard to say
She doesn’t remember being nervous or fearful
She admits she wasn’t a lot of fun She wasn’t, the party girl; she didn’t do drugs She wasn’t the one to say, let’s stay out all night She was always like, we need to get home She was never the one to say, lets just see where the wind takes us She was very responsible but not anxious She didn’t have panic attacks Or those nights where you can’t stop your brain from going Those happened more an more in the 2 years before he died
Now she found herself trying to manage this unexplained anxiety
She talked to Nate about her anxiety all the time
She wasn’t, the party girl; she didn’t do drugs
She wasn’t the one to say, let’s stay out all night
She was always like, we need to get home She was never the one to say, lets just see where the wind takes us
She was very responsible but not anxious She didn’t have panic attacks Or those nights where you can’t stop your brain from going Those happened more an more in the 2 years before he died
She was never the one to say, lets just see where the wind takes us
She didn’t have panic attacks
Or those nights where you can’t stop your brain from going
Those happened more an more in the 2 years before he died

What would she say to Nate?

“ Please don’t die ”— Kelsey Chittick

Nate would say “ I promise I’m not going to. I won’t leave you. Don’t worry. I’m here .”
She would tell him that she couldn’t live without him He was her best friend The best dad in the world
He would tell her that he’s right here and is never going to leave her Now fast forward, she doesn’t think he’s left, in many ways
He would tell her, “ you just need to calm down ”
His big thing was to stop being afraid
He would tell her, “ What if you just knew everything was okay? ” This was his message, everything’s okay; you’re okay; we’re okay; the kids are okay
Then there were nights where she would go to bed and he would be watching a show Something like Oprah’s final show ( Mr. Holland’s Opus ) and he’d be sobbing She would ask what was wrong and he would say, “ I just hope I have enough time. I hope that I can make a difference in this world .”
Then there were times when she would wake up and couldn’t find him She felt like he was gone She would scream for him and he’d be like, “ I’m right here. I’m in the other room .”
He was her best friend
The best dad in the world
Now fast forward, she doesn’t think he’s left, in many ways
This was his message, everything’s okay; you’re okay; we’re okay; the kids are okay
Something like Oprah’s final show ( Mr. Holland’s Opus ) and he’d be sobbing
She would ask what was wrong and he would say, “ I just hope I have enough time. I hope that I can make a difference in this world .”
She felt like he was gone
She would scream for him and he’d be like, “ I’m right here. I’m in the other room .”

Kelsey’s self-help journey to battle her fears and anxieties [41:00]

This is when she started to dig into self-help and spiritual books, looking for an answer But this gave her a huge toolkit for what was coming
Vishen’s book The Code of the Extraordinary Mind was pivotal She read it with Nate and gave it to Tony
Then through a bunch of beautiful synchronicities, she got to go to an event in Jamaica
She grew up in a spiritual family that was very open minded religiously The idea was about love, and God, and being fearless
But this gave her a huge toolkit for what was coming
She read it with Nate and gave it to Tony
The idea was about love, and God, and being fearless

“ I come from a very fear based family, but we really believed in being fearless. Just no one had mastered it quite yet ”— Kelsey Chittick

Nate kept saying that she had to fix this; she couldn’t keep living like this
Nate was doing great at this point He was starting a nonprofit in Watt He was really happy
He was starting a nonprofit in Watt
He was really happy

Changes in Nate near the end [42:30]

But she felt like something about him was floating away
He knew something was wrong with him too He would forget things While barbecuing he set the fence on fire by accident He would make little mistakes He started doing mind exercises He felt really sad the last year
He was still in touch with Tony, Jeff, and all the guys
She doesn’t know if he talked about it to a lot of people
His best friend in the neighborhood Chris noticed that he wouldn’t share anything anymore He didn’t seem like himself
When Nate got together with his buddies, he would be much more normal
The kids don’t remember his sadness; it was subtle
She found his journal soon after he passed Many entries were about being more connected or finding joy again Trying harder
At the time she didn’t realize how sick he was She didn’t know what was wrong with him
He would forget things
While barbecuing he set the fence on fire by accident
He would make little mistakes
He started doing mind exercises
He felt really sad the last year
He didn’t seem like himself
Many entries were about being more connected or finding joy again Trying harder
Trying harder
She didn’t know what was wrong with him

“ Once I found out I was devastated because I was so mean ”— Kelsey Chittick

She wishes she could go back and be kinder, but she had no clue
He would just deal with it on his own
All of the sudden he seemed older; he become tired more quickly

The traumatic experience of learning of Nate’s death during her own spiritual journey to Jamaica [45:30]

Back to the Jamaica story

It’s early November 2017 and she doesn’t want to go on this trip
They went to New York about a month before, for a birthday
She had one of her biggest (and last) panic attacks
One night she tells Nate that she doesn’t want to go to Jamaica; he pulls off his sleep apnea mask and tells her she’s going, she needs to live fearlessly He tells her, “ You have all these gifts and you are trapped in our house and in all this fear, and it’s time for you to go. And I want you to go on that trip and I want you to come back changed .” This from a man who never told her what to do He was very supportive, but this was non-negotiable
Nate drove her to the airport for the trip
On the way she was texting with Toby and got invited to A-fest This event was a spiritual retreat in Jamaica with amazing speakers Wim Hof, Steven Kotler, Marisa Peers, Jim Kwik
As she’s texting Toby, Nate grabs here hand and asked her to put her phone down He never did this He said, “ I just want to be with you for the next 5 minutes ”
So they held hands until he dropped her off at the terminal
As he dropped her off he told her, “ You’re the most amazing woman I’ve ever met in my life. I’ve never met anybody like you. I just want you to know, I love you more than anything, and I hope you go have fun, and that you come back a better person, and ready to do what I know you’re meant to do. And I don’t want you to worry about anything because we are going to be fine. I love you so much, so go have fun .” She’s really crying
They texted during her 4 days in Jamaica, the most beautiful texts you could ever imagine
Wim Hof spode on the last day His wife had died when she was young and he was left with 4 kids She remembers thinking how much that would suck
After this she has a memory of swimming on her last day in Jamaica She remembers feeling the divine all around her It was like everything had changed and she now gets it; she doesn’t need to be afraid
He tells her, “ You have all these gifts and you are trapped in our house and in all this fear, and it’s time for you to go. And I want you to go on that trip and I want you to come back changed .”
This from a man who never told her what to do
He was very supportive, but this was non-negotiable
This event was a spiritual retreat in Jamaica with amazing speakers Wim Hof, Steven Kotler, Marisa Peers, Jim Kwik
Wim Hof, Steven Kotler, Marisa Peers, Jim Kwik
He never did this
He said, “ I just want to be with you for the next 5 minutes ”
She’s really crying
His wife had died when she was young and he was left with 4 kids
She remembers thinking how much that would suck
She remembers feeling the divine all around her
It was like everything had changed and she now gets it; she doesn’t need to be afraid

“ If you knew the time I was swimming in the water, and you knew what was happening in Los Angeles, it would blow your mind .”— Kelsey Chittick

She got out of the water, threw on some shorts, and was about to go to the last event (a boat excursion) when her phone rang It was a number she didn’t recognize so she didn’t answer
Then her best friend called She told her not to freak out, but Nate was at Sky Zone Trampoline park and he fell She was going to Kelsey’s brother-in-law’s to get the kids and Kelsey’s mom was heading over to UCLA She said, “ he’s not dead ” At that moment, everything in Kelsey’s body knew he was gone
On some level, she knew Nate waited until it was her last day on the trip
He was smart, he knew if she had been with him she would have been like, “ you don’t die on me ”
All the information she got on her trip to Jamaica was super influential for her recovery, her grief work, and some of the psychedelic things
She told Toby as they were preparing to go to the airport about Nate Toby thought it was ridiculous that Kelsey wasn’t talking but just packing
On the drive to the airport she got a call from her mom, the doctor wanted to speak with her He said, “ I’m so sorry, Mrs. Chittick, we tried everything. We worked on him for 50 minutes because he looked so young. He didn’t make it. Your husband had a heart attack. ” Kelsey simply said, “ My husband’s dead” with no emotion
It was a number she didn’t recognize so she didn’t answer
She told her not to freak out, but Nate was at Sky Zone Trampoline park and he fell
She was going to Kelsey’s brother-in-law’s to get the kids and Kelsey’s mom was heading over to UCLA
She said, “ he’s not dead ” At that moment, everything in Kelsey’s body knew he was gone
At that moment, everything in Kelsey’s body knew he was gone
Toby thought it was ridiculous that Kelsey wasn’t talking but just packing
He said, “ I’m so sorry, Mrs. Chittick, we tried everything. We worked on him for 50 minutes because he looked so young. He didn’t make it. Your husband had a heart attack. ”
Kelsey simply said, “ My husband’s dead” with no emotion

“ And then began what would be the most transformative, painful, and probably beautiful last four and a half years of my life ”— Kelsey Chittick

Breaking the news to her children of their father’s death [51:00]

The trip home

There was 1 plane going back to the US that day; it was late Saturday night
She wanted to get home to her kids
There was 1 seat left But when she got to the airport, there wasn’t enough time Maybe 20 minutes until departure and the door was already shut
Through a thousand miracles she got on the plane, got the last seat A guy in baggage claim told her to hold on Somehow he talked to someone and they opened the plane door In Jamaica, people are a little more laid back but she didn’t think this was ever possible
But when she got to the airport, there wasn’t enough time
Maybe 20 minutes until departure and the door was already shut
A guy in baggage claim told her to hold on
Somehow he talked to someone and they opened the plane door
In Jamaica, people are a little more laid back but she didn’t think this was ever possible

“ In your biggest challenges and crises, there are angels literally all around you ”— Kelsey Chittick

Once on the plane she went into shock She felt like she was having a break from reality She started throwing up in the little whhite bag; she was hyperventilating She couldn’t integrate it
She felt like she was having a break from reality
She started throwing up in the little whhite bag; she was hyperventilating
She couldn’t integrate it

“ I’d never had had an experience where you thought you were going crazy ”— Kelsey Chittick

Nobody talked to her then on the plane Now she always talks to people when she sees them like that
She panicked for about 20 minutes, then the seatbelt sign went off
All of the sudden there’s a beautiful Jamaican woman in a gorgeous dress standing in the aisle next to her She puts one hand on Kelsey’s shoulder and one hand on her forehead and says, “ Baby girl, I don’t know what you’re going through, or what awaits you on the other side of this plane, but I want you to know that there are so many people praying for you. God loves you. And I love you and you are stronger than you think. And she said, slow your breathing down, baby girl, and decide who you want to be when you land, when this plane lands .” This recalibrated her breathing Kelsey spent the next 4 hours on that flight, the layover in Texas, and the flight home deciding who she would be in A week from now A month from now 5 years from now 10 years from now
On that plane ride she got really clear that her kids had just lost their dad, but they weren’t going to lose her
Now she always talks to people when she sees them like that
She puts one hand on Kelsey’s shoulder and one hand on her forehead and says, “ Baby girl, I don’t know what you’re going through, or what awaits you on the other side of this plane, but I want you to know that there are so many people praying for you. God loves you. And I love you and you are stronger than you think. And she said, slow your breathing down, baby girl, and decide who you want to be when you land, when this plane lands .”
This recalibrated her breathing
Kelsey spent the next 4 hours on that flight, the layover in Texas, and the flight home deciding who she would be in A week from now A month from now 5 years from now 10 years from now
A week from now
A month from now
5 years from now
10 years from now

“ That became my I north star from then on ”— Kelsey Chittick

Breaking the news to the kids

When she got to LAX, her mom picked her up and it was probably the worst drive you could ever imagine from the airport at midnight
She went to her friend’s house where her kids were They were 9 & 12 at the time They had been waiting all day
On the phone she lied to her kids and asked them, “ Is dad okay? ” She told them he wasn’t doing well and they should keep praying for him She couldn’t bear to tell them over the phone Now they joke about it, that she lied about really big things
She got to her friend’s house, gave both her kids a really big hug, and asked everybody to leave them for a few minutes
She told them 3 things 1 – “ Your father would’ve never left us if we weren’t going to be okay, it just wasn’t his style ” 2 – “ I need you to know that I’m enough. I have no idea how I’m going to do this. I don’t know how to live life without your father. I don’t know how to raise you guys without your father. But I’m certain I’m going to figure it out and we’re going to have a great life, and you guys need to stay being 9 and 12, and don’t need to worry about anything because I’ve got this .” 3 – “ The most important thing I need to know is that you are not victims, that you had the best father for 9 and 12 years, and he focused all of his energy on you. He loved you with everything he had. He was the kindest, most patient, amazing human being I’ve ever met. And some kids don’t get that for a day. So, just always remember that you’re the lucky ones. Do you understand? ”
She asked them both, what they needed from her They said, “ if you’re okay, we’re okay ”
Kelsey tells every mother, they would be okay too
They were 9 & 12 at the time
They had been waiting all day
She told them he wasn’t doing well and they should keep praying for him
She couldn’t bear to tell them over the phone
Now they joke about it, that she lied about really big things
1 – “ Your father would’ve never left us if we weren’t going to be okay, it just wasn’t his style ”
2 – “ I need you to know that I’m enough. I have no idea how I’m going to do this. I don’t know how to live life without your father. I don’t know how to raise you guys without your father. But I’m certain I’m going to figure it out and we’re going to have a great life, and you guys need to stay being 9 and 12, and don’t need to worry about anything because I’ve got this .”
3 – “ The most important thing I need to know is that you are not victims, that you had the best father for 9 and 12 years, and he focused all of his energy on you. He loved you with everything he had. He was the kindest, most patient, amazing human being I’ve ever met. And some kids don’t get that for a day. So, just always remember that you’re the lucky ones. Do you understand? ”
They said, “ if you’re okay, we’re okay ”

“ What we’ve done, from that point on, is fought for joy while acknowledging excruciating pain ”— Kelsey Chittick

The darkest days following Nate’s passing and how her children were handling grief [55:30]

The first 2 years were just brutal
The first night If you’ve ever lost someone suddenly, you feel like you’ve been set on fire She can’t explain the physical pain of grief She always thought it was mental, but grief and trauma are very physical You want to get out of your body She had never understood suicide But when the pain is so big and you have no way to describe it
She had tons of resources, and love, and support, and she still thought, “ This isn’t going to work ”
If you’ve ever lost someone suddenly, you feel like you’ve been set on fire
She can’t explain the physical pain of grief
She always thought it was mental, but grief and trauma are very physical
You want to get out of your body
She had never understood suicide
But when the pain is so big and you have no way to describe it

“ The beginning was surreal ”— Kelsey Chittick

It’s hard to imagine how you’re going to live in a world that so quickly becomes a planet you’ve never been on
He was everything to them
She didn’t even know an adult life without him in it
He was a much better parent than she was, in a thousand ways
When the numbness wore off and the memorials were over, there was a thousand hard times
The morgue was exceptionally awful, to go see him dead She didn’t want to go see him But by the grace of God, she had another angel tell her she had to go say goodbye to her husband She had one of the most beautiful experiences because she got some closure that she never thought she would get At the morgue, there were police and nurses, and when they pulled him out of a freezer, he was still intubated Somehow this all fades away and she started talking to him For about 15-20 minutes she told him how much she loved him and, and how grateful she was, and how she would do the best for him and the kids
When you die in a public place in LA, you have to do a autopsy
At about 6 months, she thought “ This won’t work ” She’d never had suicidal thoughts though she had been depressed, she’d been anxious But she had never thought, “ How do we get out of here? ”
She didn’t want to go see him
But by the grace of God, she had another angel tell her she had to go say goodbye to her husband
She had one of the most beautiful experiences because she got some closure that she never thought she would get
At the morgue, there were police and nurses, and when they pulled him out of a freezer, he was still intubated
Somehow this all fades away and she started talking to him For about 15-20 minutes she told him how much she loved him and, and how grateful she was, and how she would do the best for him and the kids
For about 15-20 minutes she told him how much she loved him and, and how grateful she was, and how she would do the best for him and the kids
She’d never had suicidal thoughts though she had been depressed, she’d been anxious
But she had never thought, “ How do we get out of here? ”

Were her kids an anchor to him, an anchor holding her to this earth? [58:15]

Her mom used to tell her, “ The one thing you lose once you have kids is the right to kill yourself… You can’t even kill yourself once you have them, because it wouldn’t be fair to them .”
But she remembers thinking, she wanted to take the kids with her; they have to get to him
There were nights when she thought it wasn’t going to work She had tried everything She felt lost, so broken, so scared Emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially, she didn’t know how they were going to do it
She had tried everything
She felt lost, so broken, so scared
Emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially, she didn’t know how they were going to do it

How her children were handling the tragedy in the months after [59:15]

Thanksgiving and Christmas were a blur
January’s dark to begin with, but when you’ve lost the person that you worshiped, the person that was the light in the family He was just great; he was a great dad
The kids were so sad and confused Like they just got screwed for their whole lives and they’ll never be normal again
And kids just want to be normal They want to go to school and they don’t want to be the person that’s dealing with the great tragedy They were embarrassed They would say, it’s the worst to not have a dad; it’s so embarrassing; it’s just awful
She talked to her son Jack; he was 12 and she knew he was in a bad spot He told her, “ No one makes fun of me anymore. No one jokes with me. Parents look down when I walk past them. Everyone avoids me because they don’t know what to say .” Then there’s always the kids whose parent wants them to talk to him about it
They did a bunch of counseling, but it wasn’t working at the time They couldn’t find the right fit for everybody
She’s learned a lot about trauma since then It was a little early for the kids to be forced to talk about it In Oprah Winfrey’s book, What Happened to You , she talks about how it takes kids a while to process what they’ve seen and felt Whereas adults have enough life experiences to be able to talk about it
She kept trying to force them to do counseling and talk about the day their dad died They would just close their ears (literally/physically) and rock
The therapists didn’t recognize immediately they the kids weren’t ready to talk about it yet Her daughter didn’t want to draw about it She needed to forget about it for a bit to integrate what she saw
Her son was a little more mature and he really needed to talk to someone other than Kelsey Over time, he had a great relationship with a therapist for a year Then he said, “ I think I’m done for now. Thank you so much for your help and I’ll call you if I need you again .” Jack really had a clear intention at that age of what he needed through this He enjoyed his time with the therapist, a woman who would just listen to him This was a dig for her because he was like, “ All you do is talk to me ”
He was just great; he was a great dad
Like they just got screwed for their whole lives and they’ll never be normal again
They want to go to school and they don’t want to be the person that’s dealing with the great tragedy
They were embarrassed
They would say, it’s the worst to not have a dad; it’s so embarrassing; it’s just awful
He told her, “ No one makes fun of me anymore. No one jokes with me. Parents look down when I walk past them. Everyone avoids me because they don’t know what to say .”
Then there’s always the kids whose parent wants them to talk to him about it
They couldn’t find the right fit for everybody
It was a little early for the kids to be forced to talk about it
In Oprah Winfrey’s book, What Happened to You , she talks about how it takes kids a while to process what they’ve seen and felt Whereas adults have enough life experiences to be able to talk about it
Whereas adults have enough life experiences to be able to talk about it
They would just close their ears (literally/physically) and rock
Her daughter didn’t want to draw about it
She needed to forget about it for a bit to integrate what she saw
Over time, he had a great relationship with a therapist for a year
Then he said, “ I think I’m done for now. Thank you so much for your help and I’ll call you if I need you again .”
Jack really had a clear intention at that age of what he needed through this
He enjoyed his time with the therapist, a woman who would just listen to him This was a dig for her because he was like, “ All you do is talk to me ”
This was a dig for her because he was like, “ All you do is talk to me ”

One of her darkest nights

One night she thought, we’ve got to go, we’ve got to get to dad
They use a lot of laughter in their house; tongue-in-cheek she told Jack, “ I’m thinking about killing all of us ” He asked her how they were going to die There were so many different ways, but she thought the best one was to drown the kids in the tub He was like, “ Great ;” he was 13 at the time He pointed out that he was 4-inches taller than her and so much stronger Further, she only lets them put 2-inches of water in the tub because of the drought in LA The more they talked about stuff, the better it got
A couple weeks later Jack told her, “ You know mom, if I had a gun, I would kill myself ” She didn’t tell him this was awful, don’t do it She said, “ I totally get it ” She remembers thinking, “I know how to avoid this… We just won’t have guns in our house .”
She told him to hang on for today and tomorrow
Then little, by little he was like, “ I don’t think I want to kill myself anymore .”
He asked her how they were going to die
There were so many different ways, but she thought the best one was to drown the kids in the tub He was like, “ Great ;” he was 13 at the time He pointed out that he was 4-inches taller than her and so much stronger Further, she only lets them put 2-inches of water in the tub because of the drought in LA
The more they talked about stuff, the better it got
He was like, “ Great ;” he was 13 at the time
He pointed out that he was 4-inches taller than her and so much stronger
Further, she only lets them put 2-inches of water in the tub because of the drought in LA
She didn’t tell him this was awful, don’t do it
She said, “ I totally get it ”
She remembers thinking, “I know how to avoid this… We just won’t have guns in our house .”

A new relationship with death, finding happiness, and the duality of feelings [1:02:45]

For the first year, there was a lot of crying at night

“ Nights are really dark when you have grief ”— Kelsey Chittick

Little kids need so much; she didn’t think she had enough energy to be there for them on her own
She didn’t sleep much that year Somebody always needed something at night Somebody would be crying; somebody would be losing it Many times they slept together
She thought she’d never be able to leave the house again She felt like her life was over, that she’d never have fun again, never be happy
Amongst all of this, she also thought they were going to be okay There was a knowing somewhere, that this was part of grief but it wasn’t always going to feel this way
She toggled through hopefulness and devastation
Somebody always needed something at night
Somebody would be crying; somebody would be losing it
Many times they slept together
She felt like her life was over, that she’d never have fun again, never be happy
There was a knowing somewhere, that this was part of grief but it wasn’t always going to feel this way

“ I knew we needed to hold onto the fact that this was appropriate and it wouldn’t last forever ”— Kelsey Chittick

How this might have been different 10,000 year ago

It would not be uncommon to lose someone to infection or an animal attack

Peter asks if she would have had an easier time 10,000 years ago because of expectation that something like this can happen anytime, and being supported in a community instead of stuck in her own house

Yeah, the expectation now is that everybody lives until their 90, happily married with 2 kids That expectation has set us up to be much less resilient The expectation is that it’s all about fun and joy
10,000 years ago, you saw people recover all the time from awful things Babies died People went to war There was famine
We have so much now, and our anxiety is higher than ever before
It’s counterintuitive, when you have everything, you don’t want it to fall apart With this comes anxiety
Back then, they knew things weren’t good but they would handle it
We’re not used to feeling extremely uncomfortable anymore Life is so comfortable, things are so easy for people with resources We have this idea that pain is bad and death is bad
That expectation has set us up to be much less resilient
The expectation is that it’s all about fun and joy
Babies died
People went to war
There was famine
With this comes anxiety
Life is so comfortable, things are so easy for people with resources
We have this idea that pain is bad and death is bad

“ Now I have a completely different relationship with death ”— Kelsey Chittick

She has a completely different relationship with what it means for the physical body to leave Nate isn’t gone They didn’t get screwed There wasn’t a right time for him to leave or not There’s so many nuances that, through the last 4.5 years, have changed the way she feels
She’s still toggling between all the different ideas around grief Her mother-in-law believes she will grieve forever
Our country wants everyone to be happy and she’s not happy But she’s fine with that choice
Nate isn’t gone
They didn’t get screwed
There wasn’t a right time for him to leave or not
There’s so many nuances that, through the last 4.5 years, have changed the way she feels
Her mother-in-law believes she will grieve forever
But she’s fine with that choice

Duality of feelings

Back to this football analogy of holding two beliefs at the same time, she believes she can be grieving very deeply and be very grateful at the same time You don’t go through one stage then the other
She misses Nate terribly and she’s so happy She’s happier than she’s ever been in her life
She’s been through the worst thing ever
She also had some medical stuff; she thinks that came up from grief
She’s so excited about life
You don’t go through one stage then the other
She’s happier than she’s ever been in her life

Nate’s autopsy results showing evidence of CTE [1:07:00]

When did she get the autopsy results back?

He died of cardiomyopathy of the left ventricle
The doctor called about 3 months after Nate died and said, “ We could tell right away he was a football player. His heart was so stretched out. It was so big .” You want big muscles, just not a big heart (physically) When big men move that much weight around at that speed, it overuses it, and the muscle just gives out The doctor said, “ Big men and big animals die early ” All of his arteries were 98% blocked His left ventricle had no more to give, it was like a water balloono that had been stretched out and there was just no pump anymore He said, “ Big fat people can live a long time if they sit all day and watch TV ”
Nate died of an enlarged heart She thought that was beautiful, because Nate had a really big heart
They didn’t have the right tool at the LA County Morgue (or Coroners) to look at his brain, so they didn’t see anything
You want big muscles, just not a big heart (physically)
When big men move that much weight around at that speed, it overuses it, and the muscle just gives out
The doctor said, “ Big men and big animals die early ”
All of his arteries were 98% blocked
His left ventricle had no more to give, it was like a water balloono that had been stretched out and there was just no pump anymore
He said, “ Big fat people can live a long time if they sit all day and watch TV ”
She thought that was beautiful, because Nate had a really big heart

When did she get Boston University involved?

A few year before she got a pamphlet from Boston university from the NFL
She hadn’t watched Concussion yet, with Will Smith
To be honest, she thought there might some compensation financially if he did have CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy)
She also wanted to know if he had it, so she could decide if she’d let Jack play Jack was going to Loyola and wanted to play football The heart thing pretty much sealed the deal
She wondered what was was going on with Nate’s brain
Boston University, Dr. McKee , and the whole group were exceptional
The LA Coroners sent Nate’s brain tissue to Boston
It took about a year to complete the analysis and clinical interviews
Jack was going to Loyola and wanted to play football
The heart thing pretty much sealed the deal

Nate’s parents and brother

Nate’s parents had more of a feeling of him floating away and being different, as did his brother
Because she lived with him day to day, it was harder to tell the changes because they’re so gradual
Nate’s brother lives in LA, so they saw him a lot For a long time they were trying to keep Luke alive Then it switched, with Nate gone, Luke was still there and a huge part of their lives
Luke said he felt the same sense that his brother was floating away
Nate’s mom felt this too and said, “ He is not the son I knew .” This was 5 years before Nate passed
For a long time they were trying to keep Luke alive
Then it switched, with Nate gone, Luke was still there and a huge part of their lives
This was 5 years before Nate passed

Results of analysis of Nate’s brain

Dr. McKee found that Nate had stage II (almost stage III) CTE; he had lesions all over his brain She said, “ That would’ve been a really hard life ”
This gave Kelsey gratitude that she didn’t have to live with a man who was slowly deteriorating before her eyes There are tons of people who have husbands that are healthy heart wise but not brain wise
She said, “ That would’ve been a really hard life ”
There are tons of people who have husbands that are healthy heart wise but not brain wise

What does stage II or stage III CTE look like? [1:11:00]

Junior Seau was at stage II CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy) when he killed himself
Aaron Hernandez was at stage III when he killed himself
Peter notes, “ If you looked at them from the outside, notwithstanding sort of the criminal side of what was going on with Aaron, they could tie their shoes and walk around, they don’t look like someone who’s in the last stages of Alzheimer’s disease. But if you understand their behavior, their moods and what people around them would say (and of course in the case of Hernandez, his behaviors leading up to everything), they were clearly not behaving the way they would’ve behaved if everything was totally normal .”
This is why this disease causes so much discussion and disagreements Her mother and mother-in-law think football is the devil On the other side, all the people who love it think the players know what they’re signing up for
Back when Nate began playing football, nobody talked about CTE Everybody was lying about it for a really long time Fast forward, there is no compensation anymore for CTE It would seem that anybody that dies, that’s played in the NFL probably has some level of CTE after the number of hits they take
Kelsey notes, “ I cannot imagine living with Nate, the greatest man I ever knew, with a severe brain disease that would either put us at risk or him at risk at 42… That’s very young .”
Her mother and mother-in-law think football is the devil
On the other side, all the people who love it think the players know what they’re signing up for
Everybody was lying about it for a really long time
Fast forward, there is no compensation anymore for CTE
It would seem that anybody that dies, that’s played in the NFL probably has some level of CTE after the number of hits they take

What did the scientists/ doctors at Boston University say Nate’s next 10 years would have been like, based on his brain pathology?

They gave a list of symptoms; a lot of it was already there Depression Drinking Wanting to be alone Fatigue Big outbursts of anger Nate never yelled at her in 21 years; he was never mean Then there were moments when he would snap The doctors said that would have increased in frequency
His brain scans show dead spots
When some people get dementia, they’re kinder; CTE is not that way
Either nothing is firing or it’s firing incorrectly
She found solace in learning about his brain pathology; the kids did not The kids would rather him still be there It’s possibly they didn’t see Nate deteriorate like Kelsey did They don’t like it when Kelsey says they’re lucky, lucky they didn’t have to see their dad deteriorate So she honors them and doesn’t say this anymore
Nate was their hero; he never did anything wrong in their eyes
Jack agreed not to play football
Depression
Drinking
Wanting to be alone
Fatigue
Big outbursts of anger Nate never yelled at her in 21 years; he was never mean Then there were moments when he would snap The doctors said that would have increased in frequency
Nate never yelled at her in 21 years; he was never mean
Then there were moments when he would snap
The doctors said that would have increased in frequency
The kids would rather him still be there
It’s possibly they didn’t see Nate deteriorate like Kelsey did
They don’t like it when Kelsey says they’re lucky, lucky they didn’t have to see their dad deteriorate So she honors them and doesn’t say this anymore
So she honors them and doesn’t say this anymore

The grieving process [1:15:00]

How long was it after Nate died that you had a good night’s sleep without medication?

She had never taken anything to sleep before
The first couple weeks people were telling her to take Xanax , Ambien , something
She took them for about a week
But then she woke up and felt so far away from everything

“ That was the first experience I had of traditional medicine taking you away from your pain and other things bringing you to it so you can work through it ”— Kelsey Chittick

Medication wasn’t what she expected
It was maybe 7-8 months before sleep became a really safe place
For about 6 months after Nate died, she would wake up and have that nanosecond of forgetting what had happened

“ It’s a surreal experience. It alters worlds, sudden death .”— Kelsey Chittick

Everyone asks, would you rather be sick or die suddenly? The games we play with grieving Peter wonders if people discussed this question 10,000 years ago
She doesn’t wake up shocked anymore, doesn’t have the pit in her stomach
The deep shock and grief have been gone since around 4 years There started to be some space There started to be some type of new neuro-pathways that they live in now These were becoming not as worn but as comfortable as the old ones they lived in with Nate For a while it felt like every neuro-pathway ended with Nate Everytime the door would open, she would think of Nate Everytime she would eat dinner, put the kids to bed, get in the car, etc. He was like a shadow
Over time, the more she did, the more she traveled, the more new people she met, things started firing and her brain started to adjust to a new world that didn’t have him in it She could feel the stress go down
The games we play with grieving
Peter wonders if people discussed this question 10,000 years ago
There started to be some space
There started to be some type of new neuro-pathways that they live in now These were becoming not as worn but as comfortable as the old ones they lived in with Nate
For a while it felt like every neuro-pathway ended with Nate Everytime the door would open, she would think of Nate Everytime she would eat dinner, put the kids to bed, get in the car, etc. He was like a shadow
These were becoming not as worn but as comfortable as the old ones they lived in with Nate
Everytime the door would open, she would think of Nate
Everytime she would eat dinner, put the kids to bed, get in the car, etc.
He was like a shadow
She could feel the stress go down

With phones we have a billion photos and videos. Did she ever make a decision about the frequency with which she would indulge in looking at these?

She talks about this all the time in grief groups
When she thinks about a memory, she will give herself 7 minutes to go through some videos
For a while she would call a girlfriend at night and spend hours going through videos and pictures
Recently she’s started doing some Buddhist practices Setting a time to feel Her emotions were so big for so long and she still works on that Being aware that her emotion is not her, but it’s just coming through her She can get to close the door if she wants and she can open it when she wants That has been a practice that’s changed her life the past 2 years
Grief is a very tricky thing
She feels like she knows how to help people that are grieving, because she’s felt it
She doesn’t know how she feels about videos She is grateful to have them
Her kids don’t look at pictures; they don’t like them
Setting a time to feel
Her emotions were so big for so long and she still works on that
Being aware that her emotion is not her, but it’s just coming through her
She can get to close the door if she wants and she can open it when she wants That has been a practice that’s changed her life the past 2 years
That has been a practice that’s changed her life the past 2 years
She is grateful to have them

Dealing with grief with kids and how children grieve differently [1:19:15]

“ Kids are a great thing to have and they’re exhausting to have during grief ”— Kelsey Chittick

Kids keep you going in a regular life
At the same time, you can’t really grieve until they’re gone They don’t like to see you sad
She’s talked to a ton of people who lost parents when they were younger All of them remark that if only their mom had been okay, it wouldn’t have been great, but they felt like they lost their mom too because she never got happy again This stuck with Kelsey
In the beginning she felt like her kids needed to see her sad
But this is a fine line; it scares them to see their parent sobbing It doesn’t feel safe for a 9 and 12 year old
They don’t like to see you sad
All of them remark that if only their mom had been okay, it wouldn’t have been great, but they felt like they lost their mom too because she never got happy again
This stuck with Kelsey
It doesn’t feel safe for a 9 and 12 year old

Are kids innately wired to move on quicker?

Absolutely
Kids live in the present moment; they haven’t played out a whole future They don’t know their dad missed their wedding, their graduation, etc., because they never had these things
If you create a home that is joyful and the trauma’s allowed to be spoken about when they want, then it’s not something bad that happened It’s something that they experienced And we get to decide how we want to tell the story
Kids can survive amazing things, much better than adults because they don’t have preconceived ideas
She was lucky this hit at the right age for her kids At 12 year old, kids become so self consumed and their whole world becomes their friends Once her kids were in this phase, parents were just part of the background of their lives
They talk about Nate all the time; he’s very much alive in their house
She took down a lot of pictures because it can become all consuming (this goes back to the videos) Now the pictures in the house are mostly of the kids and her
They don’t know their dad missed their wedding, their graduation, etc., because they never had these things
It’s something that they experienced
And we get to decide how we want to tell the story
At 12 year old, kids become so self consumed and their whole world becomes their friends
Once her kids were in this phase, parents were just part of the background of their lives
Now the pictures in the house are mostly of the kids and her

“ We laugh a lot about the way Nate died ”— Kelsey Chittick

Who dies during toddler time wearing orange sticky socks?
He’s the first person in history to die jumping on a trampoline, playing basketball with his kids
It’s just so bad it’s good at least for a comic
It feels like a thousands nods to her that he died on 11/11 at 11 am
It feels like they are okay, death happens all the time

Healing through her first psychedelic experience [1:23:00]

About 9 months after Nate died she had gone to an event in Estonia in the summer and a bunch of people were talking about psychedelics for grief work and trauma work
She had gotten to a point where she was doing better, but she needed access to Nate She had this deep desire to have a relationship with him, raise the kids with him, even if he wasn’t in this realm
She remembers having a conversation about needing to get to him She can talk to God and she doesn’t know where he is She didn’t know how to get to Nate
One guy asked if she had ever tried mushrooms She was was like no, her brother did a lot in high school and she would never She doesn’t like druggies She thought to herself, “ I’m very uptight and I have two glasses of wine and I’m not fun and don’t even ask. And I’m going to judge you because that’s what I do best .”
Then they asked her if she’s ever tried MDMA She thought this was ridiculous
Her experience with her brother-in-laws addiction to Oxycontin and alcohol He’s now been sober for 14 years
Her experience with her brother as a partier
Crazy people in highschool who were into psychedelics
All of these experiences made her think, “ Why am I even talking to this weirdo? I’m never going to try that stuff .”
When he asked her why she realized she was afraid She didn’t want to jump off a bridge after doing too many mushrooms
He replied, “ But you’re already dead because you’re so afraid of everything ” This really made her think She talked to some of their friends and replied, “ I’ll be ready when I’m ready ”
She got a call in October, almost a year after Nate died
These friends were going to do a group with shamans and they wanted to know if she was interested She was in
She had this deep desire to have a relationship with him, raise the kids with him, even if he wasn’t in this realm
She can talk to God and she doesn’t know where he is
She didn’t know how to get to Nate
She was was like no, her brother did a lot in high school and she would never
She doesn’t like druggies
She thought to herself, “ I’m very uptight and I have two glasses of wine and I’m not fun and don’t even ask. And I’m going to judge you because that’s what I do best .”
She thought this was ridiculous
He’s now been sober for 14 years
She didn’t want to jump off a bridge after doing too many mushrooms
This really made her think
She talked to some of their friends and replied, “ I’ll be ready when I’m ready ”
She was in

“ I had probably a level 10 anxiety going into it because I had never done anything ”— Kelsey Chittick

She wasn’t even a drinker really
She had always been an old fashioned, uptight fear-based, neurotic person, classic
Beforehand, the shamans called and asked what she wanted to work through
She related a couple of really traumatic events The morgue, the Coroners, telling her children about Nate’s death Not remembering anything from the time she got the call until after the plane journey home
It was a beautiful group
They talked about intention and what they hoped to get out of it
It was just a good group of people, loving and supportive
It was the opposite of what she thought it would be, popping pills and dancing to rave music
The first thing she took gave her a full blown panic attack She wanted out She raised her hand and was like, “ I told you so; it’s not working ”
The shaman told her, “ We gave you a placebo because we knew that first hump was going to be a big one for you ”
Then she did something similar to what the woman on the plane did She put her hand on Kelsey’s head Kelsey laid down and she actually breathed with her, through Kelsey’s panic attack
Then she gave her a psychedelic, she wouldn’t tell her which one
They were all lying in a circle
Someone asked, “ Have you dropped in? … You’ll know when you drop in .”
The morgue, the Coroners, telling her children about Nate’s death
Not remembering anything from the time she got the call until after the plane journey home
She wanted out
She raised her hand and was like, “ I told you so; it’s not working ”
She put her hand on Kelsey’s head
Kelsey laid down and she actually breathed with her, through Kelsey’s panic attack

Reliving the plane trip home

3 minutes later she knew she was in It was so ridiculous, so embarrassing She thought they were going to have to babysit her all night But within 3 minutes, she was back on the plane, right then She started to cry; her friends tell her she was loud
Everybody in the journey space came and sat next to her
They did the flight together and she felt supported
She cried and cried and said, “ This is so scary, he’s dead. ”
They replied, “ We’re right here with you, you’re not alone. We’re right here, you’re safe. Look how strong you are. You’re going to your babies .”
It felt like 6 hours, but it was probably 5-6 minutes
She did the whole flight again, but with support
After this, she had peace about it She remembered the whole thing, what seat she was in, transferring planes, all that stuff
She got up, got some water and thought she was going to be drunk and crazy But she was just regular again She talked to some people The shamans asked if she was going to go in again and she did
All she had to do was lay down again
It was so ridiculous, so embarrassing
She thought they were going to have to babysit her all night
But within 3 minutes, she was back on the plane, right then
She started to cry; her friends tell her she was loud
She remembered the whole thing, what seat she was in, transferring planes, all that stuff
But she was just regular again
She talked to some people
The shamans asked if she was going to go in again and she did

“ This whole process was insane to me, that I could modulate my experience safely by my intention and whether I closed my eyes or no t”— Kelsey Chittick

Reliving the trip to the morgue to say goodbye to Nate

She revisited the morgue She was really angry She had a ton of anger that left her, that she had never accessed Rage, thinking, “ You fucking left me at 40. You promised you wouldn’t, you’re a liar. You left me with a nine and 12 year old, you bastard. I told you to lose weight .” She had never went through this grief stage in the previous year She just felt sad for him Wondered where he was, hoping he was okay
She was really angry
She had a ton of anger that left her, that she had never accessed Rage, thinking, “ You fucking left me at 40. You promised you wouldn’t, you’re a liar. You left me with a nine and 12 year old, you bastard. I told you to lose weight .”
She had never went through this grief stage in the previous year She just felt sad for him Wondered where he was, hoping he was okay
Rage, thinking, “ You fucking left me at 40. You promised you wouldn’t, you’re a liar. You left me with a nine and 12 year old, you bastard. I told you to lose weight .”
She just felt sad for him
Wondered where he was, hoping he was okay

Finding Nate

After hours, her friend said, “ Why don’t you go find Nate? You’ve done the work. You’ve gone through a bunch of things ”
She laid down again, one of the facilitators came and Kelsey asked, “ Can you just remember whatever I say? Because I think it’s going to be good. And I need you to write it all down .”
Fast forward to the next day of the integration and the facilitator remarked, “ It was too beautiful. I couldn’t remember anything. I just sat there and listened. ”
She remembered laying on the couch, calling for Nate, and seeing him right in front of her He told her, “ I’ve never left. I’m still here, my body wasn’t serving me anymore .” She asked what he meant and he took his whole body and just threw it on the ground, like it was clothes He showed her their kids They agreed the kids are stronger than she thinks He gave her some tips about what they needed from her and how to raise them Slow down with Addison Spend more one-on-one time with Jack Only things he would know Then he said, “ The biggest thing is, you’ve got to live fearlessly. I’m going to show you what it feels like .” And then they flew around the universe and it was probably the first time in her life she felt free He told her, “ You have a choice right now to just have the best life and I want you to go live it. And I’m right here, you can access me at any time. Just call for me .”
From that point on, they’ve had a great relationship She feels him He send her songs and birds and hummingbirds If she pays attention, he’s everywhere
He told her, “ I’ve never left. I’m still here, my body wasn’t serving me anymore .”
She asked what he meant and he took his whole body and just threw it on the ground, like it was clothes
He showed her their kids
They agreed the kids are stronger than she thinks
He gave her some tips about what they needed from her and how to raise them Slow down with Addison Spend more one-on-one time with Jack Only things he would know
Then he said, “ The biggest thing is, you’ve got to live fearlessly. I’m going to show you what it feels like .” And then they flew around the universe and it was probably the first time in her life she felt free
He told her, “ You have a choice right now to just have the best life and I want you to go live it. And I’m right here, you can access me at any time. Just call for me .”
Slow down with Addison
Spend more one-on-one time with Jack
Only things he would know
And then they flew around the universe and it was probably the first time in her life she felt free
She feels him
He send her songs and birds and hummingbirds
If she pays attention, he’s everywhere

“ I don’t know where you go or what happens, but I am very clear that if we’re made of energy and if I can talk to God, why wouldn’t I be able to talk to Nate? ”— Kelsey Chittick

Now she talks to him all the time, and he just listens even more He tells her things in very quick, 2-3 words, “ You’re fine. Yes. Slow down, stop talking .” There’s a lot of stop talking
She asks him why he played football He said, “ Because it was the easiest way for people to respect me and listen to me, so I could share with them about love. I never really loved playing football, but I love that it gave me access to people, so I could talk to them about the stuff I really wanted to talk about, which was never about football .” He never talked about football once he was done He loved watching it with his buddies
He told her not to worry about him and that it’s exceptional where he is
He tells her things in very quick, 2-3 words, “ You’re fine. Yes. Slow down, stop talking .” There’s a lot of stop talking
There’s a lot of stop talking
He said, “ Because it was the easiest way for people to respect me and listen to me, so I could share with them about love. I never really loved playing football, but I love that it gave me access to people, so I could talk to them about the stuff I really wanted to talk about, which was never about football .”
He never talked about football once he was done
He loved watching it with his buddies

This experience was beautiful to her, probably one of her top 3 experiences in life

With Xanax and Ambien you just black out and have no idea what happened
The mushrooms and plant experience gave her an ability to go toward her grief, understand it, walk though it, and come out of it knowing they’re all okay
She went from being most afraid of death She didn’t want anyone she loved to die; she didn’t want to die To a point where now she has a great peace about it
She didn’t want anyone she loved to die; she didn’t want to die
To a point where now she has a great peace about it

“ I’m so fired up about plant medicine now ”— Kelsey Chittick

She’s done it 5-6 times since then
Nothing is quite a mind blowing as that first one

The therapeutic potential of psychedelics, meditation, and more [1:33:45]

What have subsequent trips been like?

She has had some with focused intention, looking for answers
On others she’s been like, “ Just tell me what is. ”

“ For me, it feels like a download of information ”— Kelsey Chittick

It feels like a connection that is so much bigger than anything she could have in her day to day
She’s spent her life trying to be great at everything and have people give her approval
She noticed in her first experience (and in all the subsequence ones) that her ego completely goes away She’s the biggest judgment She’s a comic, she tries to make fun of everybody, use everything against people
In these experiences, she has no judgements on anybody It’s 10-11 hours where she is not worried about what people think of her or what she thinks of them It’s such a relief This is the biggest thing she gets out of it
She’s the biggest judgment
She’s a comic, she tries to make fun of everybody, use everything against people
It’s 10-11 hours where she is not worried about what people think of her or what she thinks of them
It’s such a relief
This is the biggest thing she gets out of it

This is what it would be like if her ego got out of the way and she was just present with what is / who is, and she just sees good

She never felt that taking psychedelics was a mistake It wasn’t scary She hasn’t done any ayahuasca (yet)
It wasn’t scary
She hasn’t done any ayahuasca (yet)

“ It’s a lot better than getting drunk and crying ”— Kelsey Chittick

She stopped drinking pretty soon after Nate died, because she’d drink tequila and just sob
It’s clear now that alcohol is a depressant
If she drinks red wine or any type of alcohol now, it cues anxiety The sugar makes her heart race If she can’t sleep, her brain starts going; it’s not a safe place Alcohol doesn’t work for her anymore
The sugar makes her heart race
If she can’t sleep, her brain starts going; it’s not a safe place
Alcohol doesn’t work for her anymore

Did you talk with your kids after the psilocybin experience?

No
But if they see this podcast
Jack is 16 now, so he would understand it
They hate drunk people
There’s been a connotation around drugs in their family, that it’s really not good
She doesn’t know when the right age is to talk to her kids about it
Peter hasn’t talked to his kids about psychedelics yet Except to try and explain the legality of a drug is a second order consideration First you want to think about the drug and what it will do
Peter asks patients all the time, “ Tell me how many drinks you have in an average week. Tell me which recreational drugs you use .” It’s not judgemental He discusses how certain drugs (like alcohol) change your state but don’t change traits Other drugs change your state and can change your traits Legal and illegal drugs are in both of these camps It’s worth noting and respecting
Except to try and explain the legality of a drug is a second order consideration
First you want to think about the drug and what it will do
It’s not judgemental
He discusses how certain drugs (like alcohol) change your state but don’t change traits Other drugs change your state and can change your traits
Legal and illegal drugs are in both of these camps It’s worth noting and respecting
Other drugs change your state and can change your traits
It’s worth noting and respecting

“ But really the things in this camp you have to really ask yourself, how often am I doing this? And why am I doing this? ”— Peter Attia

Cocaine clearly changes your state People have told him how great they feel on it Peter’s never done cocaine and when he asks people, they can’t make a compelling case that it makes them better when they’re not on it
He thinks the same is true for alcohol
People have told him how great they feel on it
Peter’s never done cocaine and when he asks people, they can’t make a compelling case that it makes them better when they’re not on it

Peter’s takeaway: Psilocybin and MDMA have the potential (if done correctly) to make you a better version of you long after that medicine is gone

Kelsey agrees; she’s a different person (better) because of those experiences She’s less afraid, more patient She thinks she has less answers; she’s more open All the things that you hope to get in therapy, but it’s very hard to get your brain to change
Psychedelics opens up a pathway that was blocked It was always there, you just hadn’t gone down it
When she took psilocybin and it moved that blockade, there was a road she never knew that was just ease and love and fearlessness And after she was done, she started to walk down that road more often in her day to day life For so long, it wasn’t even accessible to her, and now it’s a road that she chooses quite often
The same is true for MDMA, though she’s done that very rarely It showed her how to be fun and connected again It showed her how to be without judging, just listening She used to be so edgy
Now, even if she doesn’t do it, she remembers the feeling She can access that neuro-pathway and be calm, not worry
She’s less afraid, more patient
She thinks she has less answers; she’s more open
All the things that you hope to get in therapy, but it’s very hard to get your brain to change
It was always there, you just hadn’t gone down it
And after she was done, she started to walk down that road more often in her day to day life
For so long, it wasn’t even accessible to her, and now it’s a road that she chooses quite often
It showed her how to be fun and connected again
It showed her how to be without judging, just listening
She used to be so edgy
She can access that neuro-pathway and be calm, not worry

She can get herself to that new road she always had, but previously had a huge blockade in front of it

Peter notes, “ MDMA really has this ability to create this empathy that is very difficult for most people to access on command. Or frankly not under the influence of that medication. To me, if you can craft the intention around that, it’s an amazing thing for a relationship as well .” Kelsey agrees
Kelsey agrees

“ There’s been a ton of gifts of grief ”— Kelsey Chittick

She’s really excited about plant journeys
She understands that you have to be ready, be open to the experience, and want the experience

Is it the best of both worlds to combine psychedelics with the traditional work of therapy?

Peter remarks, it’s dangerous when people think that the plant or molecule by itself can do all the work
He feels psychedelics are incredible lubricants that allow you to do very difficult things, even when you’re long off the influence of those medications
He asks, “ What fraction of your recovery has been predicated on that experience versus all that came before it and after it and around it? ”
She’s done a ton of work, read a bunch

“ The other big thing that I do that has supported all of that… meditation ”— Kelsey Chittick

She’s militant about meditation Before she did maybe 20 minutes a day, here and there She used Insight Timer
Once Nate died, meditation became a must
She noticed Peter has a sauna bag She will sit in one of these with Dispenza
Dispenza’s work [and meditations] has changed her life the most in terms of a daily practice Helped her change a thought Or watching a thought Or knowing that her feelings are transient Knowing that she can change a feeling through it, changing a thought Saying “ Stop ” doesn’t mean a thought/ feeling isn’t going to come, but she now has agency in how she feels like never before
Before she did maybe 20 minutes a day, here and there
She used Insight Timer
She will sit in one of these with Dispenza
Helped her change a thought
Or watching a thought
Or knowing that her feelings are transient
Knowing that she can change a feeling through it, changing a thought
Saying “ Stop ” doesn’t mean a thought/ feeling isn’t going to come, but she now has agency in how she feels like never before

If you do the psychedelics in conjunction with a very deep meditation and committed spiritual practice that gives you peace, whatever that might be, you have a great shot at coming out of pretty much everything.

Peter finds it sad that meditations isn’t taught alongside English, science, math, to kids in school
If kids had an emotional health class from the moment they entered kindergarten If it was part of the core curriculum If they learned to distance themselves from their thoughts 30 minutes a day, K-12 How many different habits could we develop How could we equip ourselves
If it was part of the core curriculum
If they learned to distance themselves from their thoughts 30 minutes a day, K-12
How many different habits could we develop
How could we equip ourselves

The concept of “radical acceptance” and the peace that comes with it [1:42:30]

Kelsey mentioned something in her book that resonated deeply with Peter— radical acceptance

Kelsey’s Mom was into this stuff for a long time This was always in the background noise of her life
Her dad left when she was 15 and her mom went on this journey Books and people were part of it
The idea of radical acceptance happened after Nate died The idea that something wasn’t good or bad
She knew of it in practice, but when everything seems good it’s hard to understand
Before she experienced it, she thought it was an annoying statement Like, “ Oh yeah, good luck to those people that have a sick kid or whatever. I hope they just accept what is .”
Now she sees what it is, and it’s beautiful
It doesn’t mean things won’t feel hard or miserable
It just means it is exactly what you are going through
This was always in the background noise of her life
Books and people were part of it
The idea that something wasn’t good or bad
Like, “ Oh yeah, good luck to those people that have a sick kid or whatever. I hope they just accept what is .”

“And the resistance to that and the wishing it was different is what kills you ”— Kelsey Chittick

People will ask how she is doing so well It’s because she doesn’t wish it were different
It’s because she doesn’t wish it were different

Do the kids understand this, radical acceptance?

She doesn’t know; they were so young
She is working on understanding that they have their own path
They all have different relationships to Nate, and different stories they tell in their head
She thinks they are surprised at how great life is compared to what they thought it would be when he first died
Sometimes they’ll say, “ Isn’t it great we’re so happy again? Isn’t it great that we have fun again? Look at how good our life is .” That’s their way of saying they made it, they accept what is They have continued to build a life that is beautiful
They talk a lot in their house about what Nate would want them to do
That’s their way of saying they made it, they accept what is
They have continued to build a life that is beautiful

“ Nate would want us to be joyful ”— Kelsey Chittick

So if you want to honor your dead person, the best way to do it is live the life they would want you to live if they were here.

The kids and her miss him, they’re happy, they accept it
Radical acceptance gets easier the more you do it
But until you have to practice it (because you’re in a dark spot), she doesn’t know that you can
People ask if you can transform without going through something big She doesn’t know if you can
She had read it, intellectually knew it, but until she had to really dig into those practices and prepare with them There’s a magic in that transformation when you do the work
She asks Peter what he thinks, he has gone through hard things He’s not equipped to answer that the way she is
Peter’s good friend Ric Elias was on the USAir flight that was going to crash and somehow made the miraculous landing in the Hudson River in 2009 He was previously on the podcast, #79 – Ric Elias: Earning the gift of life Nothing bad happened to him But there was a 2 minute period where he really thought, “ No, no, this is it, I am dead .” This was 13 years ago, and Rick is still living the life of a guy who was given a second chance
Peter asks, “ Could Rick have come to this same set of principles that guide his life today without that? ”
She doesn’t know if you can
There’s a magic in that transformation when you do the work
He’s not equipped to answer that the way she is
He was previously on the podcast, #79 – Ric Elias: Earning the gift of life
Nothing bad happened to him
But there was a 2 minute period where he really thought, “ No, no, this is it, I am dead .”
This was 13 years ago, and Rick is still living the life of a guy who was given a second chance

Peace comes from acceptance

“ There’s just a real relief when you stop wishing it was different, whatever it is ”— Kelsey Chittick

When you stop wishing whatever you’re going through wasn’t and you just go, “ Let’s roll. What have I got to learn? What’s on the other side of this? What will it feel like when it’s transformed into something different? What can I get excited about? ”
She thinks that the practices work
She believes that you can get through things
She thinks her situation is fairly easy if you look at the resources she has In grief, if a woman has resources, it’s a very different experience than if you don’t
There’s a thousand things that interact to make your experience what it is
In grief, if a woman has resources, it’s a very different experience than if you don’t

But internally the Stoics and then the Buddhists and believing in something bigger than you, those are key pillars

What would you say to a man or woman or a child listening to this right now, who’s 3 months out from that tragedy, based on everything you’ve learned? [1:46:45]

To start, just hang on for now
Humans are built to last, to make it through things and do the work

“ Do the work ”— Kelsey Chittick

Whatever that work is, wherever you’re trying to go, the work will eventually support you
Think of it, if you’re over here and you’re trying to get over here, you got to build a bridge Once you build the bridge, you’ll get over there But you’ve got to work to build the bridge that isn’t there yet
Once you build the bridge, you’ll get over there
But you’ve got to work to build the bridge that isn’t there yet

And that’s where the meditation, and the reading, and the gratitude, and the changing your brain— those are each planks that you’re building to get over to the other side

And if you do the work, you’re going to look back and be like, “ Damn, I never thought I could build that bridge .” And you’re going to be more confident And more joyful Because you just saw you did something you never thought you could do So life just got sweeter
And you’re going to be more confident
And more joyful
Because you just saw you did something you never thought you could do
So life just got sweeter

The up-and-down experience of writing her book [1:47:45]

Second Half: Surviving Loss and Finding Magic in the Missing

She didn’t have any pressure
For her, she had to get the story out
It was very personal
She wanted her kids to remember
And she wanted to remember because she knew she was going to love again and have other relationships

“ Time is a miracle when it comes to life, because as time goes on, the pain does gradually get better ”— Kelsey Chittick

She wanted to make sure the story of this great man was recorded So her grandchildren and great-grandchildren will know where they came from, and how all this happened
Somewhere in the middle she thought, “ This is such shit. I shouldn’t even show it to them to my worst enemy, because this is just blabber of nothing. And I’m so bored with what I wrote. It’s so dumb and it’s so ridiculous. Well I mean, just stop now, because this is torture for you and nobody’s… This is horrible .”
Then you get to a point where you’ve written enough and then it gets to an editor and they make it a little better and they give you some feedback and you just start cutting stuff out
Then it got fun To cut out the junk and just tell it like it is, and not worry what people think
She so glad she wrote it She can’t imagine doing it again It feels surreal now
It’s a unique experience, writing a book The internal dialogue and anxiety and disgust with what you’re putting out is really epic
So her grandchildren and great-grandchildren will know where they came from, and how all this happened
To cut out the junk and just tell it like it is, and not worry what people think
She can’t imagine doing it again
It feels surreal now
The internal dialogue and anxiety and disgust with what you’re putting out is really epic

“ It’s just double flogging ”— Kelsey Chittick

You’re reading what you already hated that you wrote
But she tells people to write it down because it’s going to help somebody And, “ go easy on yourself with the book ”
And, “ go easy on yourself with the book ”

What’s the most surprising thing that you’ve received as a way of feedback?

So many people have written to thank her for being honest
She thinks what this means is— not to play grief either way, the good or the bad
There’s a duality to everything in life This sense that everything isn’t good or bad
People wrote in and told her, “ Thank you for letting us know that it was awful. And you felt like you were on fire and you couldn’t wait to have sex with other people. Thank you for knowing that you know that you lost the man of your dreams and you also get to meet other people and have a new experience. That it might be exactly what was meant to be .”
People thank her for sharing the multifaceted approach she has to this experience
This sense that everything isn’t good or bad

So there’s a whole life I’m going to have that I never even knew possible. And there was one that I really love that got taken away.

Peter asked, “ Did your kids read it before you published it? ” No And they don’t want to read it either They are terribly embarrassed by it and secretly proud
Jack took her book to the school counselor because the counselor asked about her job and all he could say is, “ she wrote a book ”
The kids are way more private than her
She’s learning to understand that they’ll tell it in their time
And they’ll read it in their time
And their experience will be very different from what she wrote
No
And they don’t want to read it either
They are terribly embarrassed by it and secretly proud

Selected Links / Related Material

Kelsey’s book : Second Half: Surviving Loss and Finding Magic in the Missing by Kelsey Chittick (2021) | [0:45, 19:45, 27:45, 1:42:30, 1:47:45]

Kelsey’s podcast : keepOn with October Gonzalez & Kelsey Chittick | [1:00]

Vishen’s book : The Code of the Extraordinary Mind: 10 Unconventional Laws to Redefine Your Life and Succeed On Your Own Terms by Vishen Lakhiani (May 2016) | [41:30]

Oprah Winfrey’s book : What Happened to You?: Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing by Oprah Winfrey and Bruce D. Perry (2021) | [1:00:30]

Previous episode of The Drive with Ric Elias : #79 – Ric Elias: Earning the gift of life Host Peter Attia, The Peter Attia Drive Podcast (November 11, 2019) | [1:45:15]

Stages of CTE : The Stages Of Traumatic Brain Injury: Learning From The Brains Of Athletes, Veterans, And One Head-Banger | Alice Walton, Forbes (December 5, 2012)

People Mentioned

Nate Hobgood-Chittick (Kelsey’s husband and former NFL player) [1:00, 7:45]
Jeff Saturday (football center and Nate’s good friend) [14:30, 17:00, 23:00, 27:30, 43:15]
Bill Polian (Colts football coach) [16:30]
Kurt Warner (football quarterback) [17:15]
Anthony (Tony) Gonzalez (football tight end and Nate’s good friend) [23:00, 27:30, 41:30, 43:15, 46:45]
Dick Vermeil (Rams football coach) [18:00]
Mike Clark (strength and conditioning coach) [22:15]
Tom Brady (football quarterback) [24:45]
Aaron Rogers (football quarterback [24:45]
Vishen Lakhiani (author) [41:30, 46:45]
Wim Hof (motivational speaker) [48:00]
Oprah Winfrey (talk show host and author) [40:45, 1:00:30]
Ann McKee (Professor and director of neuropathology core at Boston University) [1:09:00, 1:10:30, 1:13:30]
Junior Seau (football linebacker) [1:11:00]
Aaron Hernandez (football tight end, suffered CTE, murder) [1:11:00]
Joe Dispenza (meditation expert) [1:41:00]
Ric Elias (survivor of flight 1549) [1:45:15]

Kelsey Chittick is a writer, comedian and inspirational speaker. Over the past 14 years, she has performed stand-up comedy all over Los Angeles and speaks at events around the country. She is the co-creator of KeepON, an inspiring and humorous podcast that explores how our greatest obstacles turn out to be our greatest gifts.

Growing up in Florida, Kelsey was an accomplished student and athlete—an NCAA Championship individual qualifier and captain of the UNC women’s swimming team. She was married to Super Bowl champion Nate Hobgood-Chittick. [ Second Half ]

Instagram: @kelseydchittick

Transcript

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